How the GW myth is perpetuated

Extrafire

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Right, you mentioned them, not me... It's not slander to re-state what has already been stated. I'm not the only one who notices cherry picking. I'm not the only one who compared what you have said and done to the hockey stick fiasco either.

I mentioned them, and when you advised me of your position on them I acknowledged it. I even recall that I praised you on your discrimination while replying to someone else. It is slander to accuse me of continuing to lump you in with them when clearly I have not. As far as cherry picking goes, everyone on this thread does it, both pro and con.
Where did I say significant? I don't even know what you mean by that, not exactly well framed Extra.
Didn’t say you said significant. That’s what I was asking. Let’s see if I can phrase it better. Significant in that it would be a new specie significantly different from any of the old species, so that its ability to survive climate fluctuations would be in question. That better?

Possible to evolve in a short time, most definitely.

My understanding of evolution is that it’s a lengthy process, unless you’re referring to punk eek, which I’m not too sure of. In any event, any specie which has evolved quickly and recently and has not experience major temperature fluctuations may be doomed naturally, since such fluctuations are inevitable.

Here is what was said:

LGilbert:
Funny, I was given to understand that some species are highly sensitive to temperature change of even fractions of degrees.

Extrafire quotes and responds:
Some people like you to believe that. Any species that is wouldn't have survived previous temperature fluctuations which were much greater than we're experiencing now.

I responded that this was a fallacy because, it assumes that any species alive today, would have to be unphased by small changes due to past changes which were larger, ignoring that thermal stress isn't due to the magnitude of change, but due to whatever thermal envelope a species can tolerate. It could be a very small change in some species, and very large in others. This is abundantly clear from the fossil record, and from what we know about the physiology of the animals here with us right now.
OK, valid point, but considering that the earth does go through constant temperature fluctuations of varying magnitude, then species that could only tolerate a narrow thermal envelope would be going extinct rather frequently as a natural process. Thus I would have to conclude that any such species alive today is doomed, with or without the help of mankind, as mentioned above.
The second part where I said all was due to your choice of language. Had you said, "some of which were larger..." well then that's another ball of wax altogether.
Well here’s what I said: “Any species that is wouldn't have survived previous temperature fluctuations which were much greater than we're experiencing now.” I don’t see any reason that anyone would think that I was referring to all previous fluctuations. You’re just misrepresenting me again.
One new finding does not contradict a trend. To even suggest such a thing shows how ignorant you are of anything related to statistical treatment. Ridiculous!
One new finding that contradicts the trend, most definitely contradicts a trend. How can it be otherwise? I didn’t say it negates the trend, only that it contradicts it, which it most clearly does. Are you deliberately playing dense again?

What you call dogma, scientists call science.
I respect your science. However your adherence to AGW doctrine is not science.
What you call a contradicted trend, a scientist would call a single observation.
A single observation that contradicts a trend still contradicts a trend.
 

Extrafire

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Oh, that's right, we are all stupid except you.:roll:

Did I say you were stupid? Or imply such? Not at all.

Here’s a little dissertation on the usage of that word:

Leftists frequently have the habit of calling their opponents stupid. Apparently this saves them the necessity of countering opposing opinions. A few rightists will do the same, but generally they rely on logic and evidence and actually take the trouble to counter leftist opinion. By “putting that word into my mouth” when I have never said it or implied it, you reveal your own mindset.

There are other words that should be used instead of “stupid”. “Fool” for instance. One need not be stupid to be a fool. For example, Barack Obama is obviously highly intelligent, yet he is a fool, as is evidenced by his statements on the Russia/Georgia and Israel/Palestinian conflicts. Another word that could be used is “incompetent”. GW Bush is clearly intelligent, having an ivy league education (and he got better marks than either of his two presidential opponents) yet he is just as clearly incompetent as POTUS.

And then there is the word “mistaken”. For some reason which I am at a loss to understand, people by the millions can be taken in by those who know how to sway the multitudes. Hitler youth, Mao’s red brigades, Khomeini’s revolutionary guard, to name a few examples.

I’m sure you are aware that I have not called you or anyone else on this forum stupid, nor have I implied such. In fact I consider Tonington to be quite intelligent, and have mentioned it, although he does let his doctrine overrule his intelligence at times. You, on the other hand, have given me no reason to believe you are particularly intelligent, but I also have no evidence to believe you are not, so I give you the benefit of the doubt. I have an inkling that you may be a fool (see Obama above) but reserve judgment on that for the time being.

So I would suggest that you refrain from calling anyone stupid (or accusing you opponents of doing the same) just because they disagree with your point of view. It portrays you as unable to support your position with logic and evidence.

Hmmm…I just had another thought. How old are you, 14? Young intelligent people can be easily led astray which would explain you. (See Hitler, Mao, Khomeini above.)
 

L Gilbert

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Because the technology to do so doesn't exist. They're ahead of us in some ways (people going to the olympics report they have electronic do-dads not available here. I also heard that they've developed a rechargeable battery that lasts 12 times as long as the best we have. I believe if they could do it better, they will, although that doesn't mean they won't do some things wrong in the meantime.
Sorry, but I know the technology to limit smog for instance exists. TekCominco sure did a pretty good job of reducing their pollution. So If they can cut back on their emissions, I am sure that China could START OUT with lots less. So what I can reason from that is that they aren't interested in learning from anyone else's mistakes.

It isn't for the few. It's for the majority. If our technological economies collapse, the world collapses into poverty like we've never seen, with all the famines, plagues and wars that result.
Ah, perhaps even if it is for the many as you suggest, we HAVE been stupid and ignorant, we ARE being stupid and ignorant, so it's ok to CONTINUE to be stupid and ignorant.
 

L Gilbert

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My understanding of evolution is that it’s a lengthy process, unless you’re referring to punk eek, which I’m not too sure of. In any event, any specie which has evolved quickly and recently and has not experience major temperature fluctuations may be doomed naturally, since such fluctuations are inevitable.
We had a filbert bush in our back yard one time that had gotten infested with leaf rollers (they are bugs). I sprayed and that cut the population down, but a couple years after that I had to spray with a different inhibitor as they had become enured to the first. In total I used 3 different things to keep them at a minimum over a 6 year cycle. I have heard that some bacteria, virii, etc. evolve even quicker than a couple years. So "lengthy process" is a pretty relative term.


OK, valid point, but considering that the earth does go through constant temperature fluctuations of varying magnitude, then species that could only tolerate a narrow thermal envelope would be going extinct rather frequently as a natural process.
..... assuming their environment was open to the change. And yes there are species such as this disappearing. It also would depend on whether they could adapt as fast as the change in temperatures occurred
Thus I would have to conclude that any such species alive today is doomed, with or without the help of mankind, as mentioned above.
An assumption based on the previous assumption.
 
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GreenFish66

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Global warming

Global warming will prove itself!..........Maybe it's all the ice water we're drinking?.....................All I know is Global warming STINKS!
 

Tonington

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Didn’t say you said significant. That’s what I was asking. Let’s see if I can phrase it better. Significant in that it would be a new specie significantly different from any of the old species, so that its ability to survive climate fluctuations would be in question. That better?

Not really. Evolution doesn't normally produce a new species that is significantly different. Most times it's only minor difference. The significance of new species comes from how those minor changes allow them to cope with different parameters. But significantly different, no. Not until you're farther down the phylogenic tree.

My understanding of evolution is that it’s a lengthy process, unless you’re referring to punk eek, which I’m not too sure of. In any event, any specie which has evolved quickly and recently and has not experience major temperature fluctuations may be doomed naturally, since such fluctuations are inevitable.

Maybe. Or Maybe not. That quick evolution can be spurned on by all sorts of changes. You can't definitively say anything about speciation and evolution in that regard.

OK, valid point, but considering that the earth does go through constant temperature fluctuations of varying magnitude, then species that could only tolerate a narrow thermal envelope would be going extinct rather frequently as a natural process. Thus I would have to conclude that any such species alive today is doomed, with or without the help of mankind, as mentioned above.

Again, it's not that simple. Plenty of species with narrow envelopes can survive, so long as there is still ecological niches for them to move into, and they're capable of moving fast enough. They can migrate to areas which would be marginal, and still cope well enough to avoid extinction. Look at how mammals evolved for instance. Totally minor players, until conditions changed to their favour.

As far as extinction goes, you can't ignore the other pressures that we already place on other species through habitat destruction, introduction of invasive species, pollutants, over-exploiting resources, etc. You can't really place a single factor on it, which is why many geologists are adapting the name anthropocene.

One new finding that contradicts the trend, most definitely contradicts a trend. How can it be otherwise? I didn’t say it negates the trend, only that it contradicts it, which it most clearly does. Are you deliberately playing dense again?

It most certainly does not. One finding outside of the trend is to be expected. If you flipped a coin a hundred times, we would estimate that the probability of heads and tails would be equal. But very rarely would we get an even split after 100 tosses, or even a thousand tosses. That doesn't mean the probabilties we estimated are wrong. That's why everything we measure, and project has standard error bars, and error ranges.

Are you talking about stuff you do not know again? You don't have to answer, that's a rhetorical question.
 

Trex

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How the GW myth is perpetuated

The global warming theory is a conspiracy of epic proportions designed to dupe
innocent Canadians.

The World Bank, the Gnomes of Zurich, the League of Nations, the Masons as well as Mary Kay are united in their goal of secretly gaining control of the entire plant using Global Warming as one of their many secret agendas.

The Liberal Party of Canada originally thought up the plan while attending one of the many secret world domination conferences that they attend.

Iggy, I hear, whispered the "Global Warming Theory" into Dion's moist little ear long before the leadership review.

Dion, now knowning that he had the full backing of the New World Order gang quickly moved ahead with phase two of the master-plan.

The Green Shift...

Billions and billions and billions will be extracted from the pockets of the confused and dazed electorate shortly after the Liberals seize control of Canada.
Large grey men in trench-coats will gather up all the children's lunch money from every school.
Ottawa first, then the World is their motto.

Think about it
 

Tonington

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Think about it

Think about it as a conspiracy theory? :lol: An awful lot of people involved in that conspiracy theory, which kind of disqualifies it as a conspiracy theory.

That trumps the foolishness of the 9/11 truthers...
 

GreenFish66

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Trex or anyone.you think it is natural the glaciers are melting so fast up north ...Maybe it's all the boats up there breaking up the ice?.... All the surveying going on?.....What would explain all the melting..I would agree Gore and others have profited by using Global warming models but do you really think everything he said was B.S?

Too many truths not enough contradiction!...Does anyone believe humans can control or influence the weather?..If "the powers that be" could control or influence the weather would they not cause global warming to get to the resources?

Just some food for thought...Good thread!...L8r
 

Extrafire

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We had a filbert bush in our back yard one time that had gotten infested with leaf rollers (they are bugs). I sprayed and that cut the population down, but a couple years after that I had to spray with a different inhibitor as they had become enured to the first. In total I used 3 different things to keep them at a minimum over a 6 year cycle. I have heard that some bacteria, virii, etc. evolve even quicker than a couple years. So "lengthy process" is a pretty relative term.
What you have described is adaption. WHat has happened is the members of the leaf rollers who had the genetic ability to survive the spray survived, and the rest died. Thus the only ones left to reproduce were the resistant ones, and with repeated sprayings, the weaker continued to die out and the resistant to survive and breed, resulting in a resistant population. That adaption strengthened the specie. They're still leaf rollers, not a new specie. For an evolutionary process to result in a new specie would take much more than that and the resulting bug would be unable to breed with the old one. Not the case here.

..... assuming their environment was open to the change. And yes there are species such as this disappearing. It also would depend on whether they could adapt as fast as the change in temperatures occurred

An assumption based on the previous assumption.
Species are always going extinct. Ton's point has been that they're in trouble because they can't adapt that fast. My point is that there have been similar changes in the past (and of even greater magnitude and speed) so they must be able to survive the current change.
 

Extrafire

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Not really. Evolution doesn't normally produce a new species that is significantly different. Most times it's only minor difference. The significance of new species comes from how those minor changes allow them to cope with different parameters. But significantly different, no. Not until you're farther down the phylogenic tree.
Well lets look at the horse and donkey which appear to be divergent species. They can still interbreed, but the offspring (mule) is sterile. Fairly minor change? How long ago are they believed to have diverged? I have no idea, but I'll bet my next paycheque that it was before 2000 years ago, within which time we've had greater and faster climate changes than the current one. Any creature that would now be in trouble due to temperature change would have to have made a much larger change than that in a much shorter time. I'm not aware of any possible scenario (real or imagined) that could have that result.

One other criteria for my use of significant that I omitted is the scope of such an evolutionary change. If I understand you correctly, a large proportion of the earths corals are in danger, ostensibly to global warming. It would have to have been a significant evolutionary change for most of the worlds corals that had survived much warmer temperatures over the current and past interglacials, as well as the ice ages to go extinct and be replaced by much inferior species that can't even survive the climate fluctuations of the past two millenia, and to have done it in the last 30 years!

Maybe. Or Maybe not. That quick evolution can be spurned on by all sorts of changes. You can't definitively say anything about speciation and evolution in that regard.
I think I can safely say that it's extremely unlikely.

Again, it's not that simple. Plenty of species with narrow envelopes can survive, so long as there is still ecological niches for them to move into, and they're capable of moving fast enough. They can migrate to areas which would be marginal, and still cope well enough to avoid extinction. Look at how mammals evolved for instance. Totally minor players, until conditions changed to their favour.
Considering how many millions of species have gone extinct (over 99% I've heard) creatures with narrow envelopes may be able to adapt and survive minor changes such as we've gone through during the current interglacial, but the inevitable major changes will be the end of them unless they're extremely lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. Mammals were minor because they couldn't compete. They were lucky enough to survive the event that killed off their competion, a much more devestating event than anything that's happening now, which would indicate that they had a very wide window indeed.

As far as extinction goes, you can't ignore the other pressures that we already place on other species through habitat destruction, introduction of invasive species, pollutants, over-exploiting resources, etc. You can't really place a single factor on it, which is why many geologists are adapting the name anthropocene.
Adapting the name...??? Oh, you mean "adopting". Typo. But, ya know, "adapting" kinda fits in with what you were saying. And maybe it wasn't a typo.:lol:

Yeah, I've already agreed with you on those "other pressures". Any one of which would likely have little effect, but the multiplicatory effect of several of them could be lethal. I note, however, that most alarmists, while decrying "other pressures" seldom give them much significance, while blaming everything, real or imagined, on AGW. Since GW by itself is beneficial (that's why we used to call them optimums) they're completely missing the boat.

It most certainly does not. One finding outside of the trend is to be expected. If you flipped a coin a hundred times, we would estimate that the probability of heads and tails would be equal. But very rarely would we get an even split after 100 tosses, or even a thousand tosses. That doesn't mean the probabilties we estimated are wrong. That's why everything we measure, and project has standard error bars, and error ranges.

Are you talking about stuff you do not know again? You don't have to answer, that's a rhetorical question.
You're dodging the point again. Here's an example of a trend, and a contradiction of that trend:

Global temperatures have trended upward since the end of the Little Ice Age. But from the early '40's to the mid '70's global temperatures fell. Those 30 years are within the period of the trend, yet they contradicted the trend. The trend was up, they went down. A clear contradiction. It did not negate or reverse the trend, only contradicted it.

Are you deliberately playing with semantics and distorting meanings again in order to avoid admitting you were wrong? You don't have to answer either, that's also a rhetorical question.
 
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Extrafire

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Sorry, but I know the technology to limit smog for instance exists. TekCominco sure did a pretty good job of reducing their pollution. So If they can cut back on their emissions, I am sure that China could START OUT with lots less. So what I can reason from that is that they aren't interested in learning from anyone else's mistakes.
China could start out with less pollution, certainly. And they know they have a problem - living in Bejing is equivalent to smoking 4 packs a day. They're adding 1000 cars per day to the streets of Bejing, most of them manufactured in China. They were going to export them to N. America, but couldn't pass the emission standards. So, yes you have a point, they could do better, but there's something about their mindset that many of them are not above cheating to get ahead, as is evidenced by their current milk scandal.

They also have realized that they can get gullible westerners to pay them to clean up. For example, they'll frequently construct a relatively cheap and primitive coal fired facility and then have it upgraded to modern standards by westerners buying carbon credits. If you were building a new plant, and everyone else was getting theirs paid for by the US, would you spend your own money when you could get them to do it for you?

But what I was actually referring to was that there is no viable alternative for the massive use of fossil fuels for most of their developement. No major alternative for carbon emissions.

Ah, perhaps even if it is for the many as you suggest, we HAVE been stupid and ignorant, we ARE being stupid and ignorant, so it's ok to CONTINUE to be stupid and ignorant.

There's more pollution, ill health and population growth in poor, undeveloped societies, and frequently we have been stupid and ignorant with some of our programs to save the world, the environment, or whatever and have caused multiple millions of deaths as a result. Why should we be so stupid and ignorant as to do it again with the rediculous AGW scam?

AL GORE says, "I believe this is a moral issue."

So it is. To "announce disasters" or "scary scenarios" or "over-represent factual presentations" in place of adherence to the scientific truth – that is a moral issue.

To let politicians insert data into official scientific documents; to alter those documents so as to contradict scientific findings; to manipulate decimal points so as to engender false headlines by exaggerating tenfold – those are moral issues.

To exaggerate by 2000% not only the atmospheric lifetime of a trace gas but also the effect of that gas on temperature; to reduce the magnitude of its predicted influence on temperature without reducing the predicted temperature itself – those are moral issues.

To claim scientific unanimity where none exists; to assert that catastrophe is likely when most scientists do not; to exalt theoretical computer models over real-world observations; to misstate the conclusions of scientific papers or the meaning of observed data; to overstate the likely future course of climatic phenomena by several orders of magnitude – those are moral issues.

To reverse the sequence of events in the early climate; to repeat that reversal in a propaganda book intended to infect the minds of children; to persist in false denial that past temperatures exceeded today’s; to state that climate events that have not occurred have occurred; to ascribe these non-events as well as specific extreme-weather events unjustifiably to humankind – those are moral issues.

To propose solutions to the non-problem of climate change that would cost many times more than the problem itself, if there were one; to advocate measures to mitigate fancifully-imagined future climatic changes when adaptation would cost far less and achieve far more; to ignore the real problems of resource depletion, energy security, bad Third World government and fatal diseases that kill millions – those are moral issues.

To advance policies congenial to the narrow, short-term political or financial vested interest of some mere corporation or faction at the expense of the wider, long-term general interest of us all – those are moral issues.

Above all, to inflict upon the nations of the world a policy of ever-grimmer energy starvation calculated not merely to inconvenience the prosperous but to condemn the very poorest to remain imprisoned in poverty forever, and to die in their tens of millions for want of the light and heat and power which we have long been fortunate enough to take for granted – that is a moral issue.

Sir, this House is the House of youth. Here high ideals are shaped and sharpened. Here of all places, it is surely understood that in each of us, however far apart in mere distance or origin or wealth or achievement, there is the image and likeness of our Creator; that by this intimate communion with our Maker each of us, however poor, is of unique and precious value; that therefore there is only one race, the human race; that the suffering children of Africa, of Asia and of south America, imploring us with their hopeless, hopeful eyes, are our people. They cannot look to their own. They look to us. We must get the science right or we shall get the policy wrong. We have failed them and failed them before.

Emphasis mine.

Watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5206383248165214524
 
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Scott Free

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What Have We Done?

Global climate is warming rapidly, and has been for more than 150 years, since around the start of the Industrial Revolution. Climate models suggest that most of the rise is due to greenhouse gas emissions, but the accuracy of the models is not entirely certain, and there have been numerous high-profile disagreements about their credibility.

An alternate way to estimate the magnitude of human influence on global temperatures is to look at the observational record. Lean and Rind found that only four factors--ENSO (El Nio-Southern Oscillation), volcanic activity, solar activity, and anthropogenic forcing by greenhouse gases--are required to explain 76% of the variance in the temperature records. Furthermore 90% or more of the warming trend of the past 100 years can be explained by invoking anthropogenic effects, and solar forcing can explain a negligible percentage of the rise in temperature over the past 25 years. Finally, the zonal temperature response to natural and anthropogenic forcing does not increase rapidly with latitude from mid- to high latitudes, as it does in models, and anthropogenic warming effects are more pronounced in the latitudes between 45S and 50N than at higher latitudes.

Source: Science October 10, 2008 vol 322

Gee, I knew that :roll:
 

Scott Free

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What do over 2,600 climate scientists have in common?

2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and other environmental scientists (so far) have signed a petition saying that global warming hysteria is pseudoscientific baloney.... The petition was put together by Dr. Frederick Seitz, the former President of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. Thousands of qualified scientists have signed it, and more are signing all the time.

Source...

Gee, I knew that :roll:
 

Tonington

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Well lets look at the horse and donkey which appear to be divergent species. They can still interbreed, but the offspring (mule) is sterile. Fairly minor change?

What's your point? The domesticated horse has 32 chromosomes, and the donkey has 31. They can breed, but the mule or hinny is sterile. The domesticated horse can mate with the wild Przewalski horse which has 33 chromosomes, and the offspring are fertile.

One other criteria for my use of significant that I omitted is the scope of such an evolutionary change. If I understand you correctly, a large proportion of the earths corals are in danger, ostensibly to global warming.
Global warming is one problem. It's compounded by other problems.

It would have to have been a significant evolutionary change for most of the worlds corals that had survived much warmer temperatures over the current and past interglacials, as well as the ice ages to go extinct and be replaced by much inferior species that can't even survive the climate fluctuations of the past two millenia, and to have done it in the last 30 years!
Your run-on sentence makes no sense.

I think I can safely say that it's extremely unlikely.
Extremely unlikely happenings over 4 billion years have yielded some impressive results.

Considering how many millions of species have gone extinct (over 99% I've heard) creatures with narrow envelopes may be able to adapt and survive minor changes such as we've gone through during the current interglacial, but the inevitable major changes will be the end of them unless they're extremely lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. Mammals were minor because they couldn't compete. They were lucky enough to survive the event that killed off their competion, a much more devestating event than anything that's happening now, which would indicate that they had a very wide window indeed.
No, it indicates that they had better evolutionary tools to survive the change. It doesn't say anything about a wider window.

Yeah, I've already agreed with you on those "other pressures". Any one of which would likely have little effect, but the multiplicatory effect of several of them could be lethal. I note, however, that most alarmists, while decrying "other pressures" seldom give them much significance, while blaming everything, real or imagined, on AGW. Since GW by itself is beneficial (that's why we used to call them optimums) they're completely missing the boat.
Except you can't just say we have GW by itself, and it clearly isn't beneficial. We're not living only with GW, we have all of those other factors. Missing the boat is to talk about this in isolation of everything else that's happened.

You're dodging the point again. Here's an example of a trend, and a contradiction of that trend:

Global temperatures have trended upward since the end of the Little Ice Age. But from the early '40's to the mid '70's global temperatures fell. Those 30 years are within the period of the trend, yet they contradicted the trend. The trend was up, they went down. A clear contradiction. It did not negate or reverse the trend, only contradicted it.
Huge difference. Thirty years is enough to make a new trend. One finding in one year is just that, one finding. You can't contradict a trend with one finding. It's called degrees of freedom in statistics. Look it up.

In this case it's called an outlier. Look that up if you need more clarification.

Think of your example this way. The thirty year trend from 1940-70 was nearly flat. Let's just call it -0.003°C per decade. The temperature anomaly spiked from 1950-52, going up by nearly 0.25°C. Did it contradict the trend? No, it didn't. Because the trend includes a random variable. Signal and noise. This anomaly is noise, or rather dominated by the noise term.

You can look that up to if it doesn't make any sense.

Are you deliberately playing with semantics and distorting meanings again in order to avoid admitting you were wrong? You don't have to answer either, that's also a rhetorical question.
It's not semantics. Trend has a very specific meaning, as does contradiction in statistics. You could admit that you don't understand statistics. Maybe you never took it in school, maybe you forget it if you did. Maybe you never needed to use it, and so never really needed to understand it. I don't know.
 
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L Gilbert

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What you have described is adaption. WHat has happened is the members of the leaf rollers who had the genetic ability to survive the spray survived, and the rest died. Thus the only ones left to reproduce were the resistant ones, and with repeated sprayings, the weaker continued to die out and the resistant to survive and breed, resulting in a resistant population. That adaption strengthened the specie. They're still leaf rollers, not a new specie. For an evolutionary process to result in a new specie would take much more than that and the resulting bug would be unable to breed with the old one. Not the case here.[/font][/color]
Adaptation, evolution, mutation or whatever. My point here is that they were not the same species after they had become resistant because their qualities had changed. They were leaf rollers but not the same type of leaf roller afterwards. I was only talking about evolution, not speciation which is what you apparently think I meant. What do you think evolution means? It at least partially means adapting to new environments. We evolved into a taller species, for instance, since the middle ages.

Species are always going extinct. Ton's point has been that they're in trouble because they can't adapt that fast. My point is that there have been similar changes in the past (and of even greater magnitude and speed) so they must be able to survive the current change.
I know what your point is. And Ton is right, some cannot adapt as quickly as climate, chemical, etc. change occurs and some die. Some do survive without changing, and only shift location or whatever. My point is that because of our stupidity, greed, and ignorance, we cause unnecessary extinctions. Perhaps by the time we smarten up the planet will be wrecked with only scavengers and parasytes that are able to live along with humans.
 

L Gilbert

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Graphs of mean global temps:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

Anyone who thinks global warming is a myth is an idiot.

I think it is still too hard and too early to say whether we're fully involved , partially involved, or not at all involved in why climate change happened this time around. Beyond that, I can't really see any expert in climatology claiming definitively one way or the other either.
 

Walter

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UK Telegraph falls prey to photo cherry picking

20 10 2008
They say a picture is worth a thousand words right? Depending on what you are trying to present, that picture can make or break any presentation.
So it was with great interest that I noticed this picture in the article from the UK Telegraph with this alarming title:
Climate change is ‘faster and more extreme’ than feared

Arctic sea-ice in September 1979 and 2007, showing the biggest reduction since satellite surveillance began. Photo: Fugro NPA Ltd
Hmmm…right below it there was a link to the World Wildlife Fund, and in the body of the article, was the source of this “news” story.
WWF’s report, Climate Change: Faster, stronger, sooner, has updated all the scientific data and concluded that global warming is accelerating far beyond the IPCC’s forecasts.
I didn’t realize that the WWF was a scientific organization, and that they could update the data and conclude our current situation worse that findings of the IPCC. How stupid of me to not pay attention to this.
CNN also picked up this WWF press release. See CNN’s story here.
Maybe WWF should “update” their findings with this picture from 2008:

Click for a larger image direct from the source
Yes a picture is worth a thousand words, isn’t it? For those of you that visit these other blogs, be sure they see this updated picture and send my regards. While you are at it, ask them at the Telegraph to provide the source data and methodology for the creation of the two images used in the report. They look more like artist renderings than data based 3D models. The images were not part of the WWF report.