How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

L Gilbert

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The "begating" is not the beginning of Genesis, just read the opening verses.

Why would we have to assume that somehow God must provide proof of Himself, or His time-frame?
........ unless he/she/it didn't exist in the first place. We've usually been able to discover traces of things and set to work discovering what they're about, but in the case of Yahweh and Yeshua, absolutely nothing concrete has been forthcoming except some honorable mentions in a book fulla hearsay (holey bible). T'were me, I think I'd rather not leave my existence up to a bunch of imaginative guesswork and rumor (oh, but I forgot, he/she/it works in mysterious ways :roll:)
 

L Gilbert

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Yes, that would be wonderful for them all. I did not say they were necessarily wrong, but they lack the fullness of the faith found in Christ in His Holy Catholic Church.
Perhaps, but it may be that they have a fullness that you folks don't have. I cannot see how one can say it is more filling, more better, more this, or more that than any other until one has jumped into the others wholeheartedly. It defies reason. Kinda like saying someone such as Ghandi couldn't have been as devout in his faith, or me in atheism, as a christian can in christianity. ;)

Besides, I've never seen a person with a "gas" (or a faithful fullness) gauge attached to them. :D
 
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sanctus

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Perhaps, but it may be that they have a fullness that you folks don't have. I cannot see how one can say it is more filling, more better, more this, or more that than any other until one has jumped into the others wholeheartedly. It defies reason. Kinda like saying someone such as Ghandi couldn't have been as devout in his faith, or me in atheism, as a christian can in christianity. ;)


Perhaps, but one thing is clear, Jesus founded the Church, and only one Church, and that Church is the Catholic Church. All other churches have a bit of the truth, but only the Catholic Church has all the truth. Let us not forget that your group left the Church, we didn't leave you.
 

sanctus

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........ unless he/she/it didn't exist in the first place. We've usually been able to discover traces of things and set to work discovering what they're about, but in the case of Yahweh and Yeshua, absolutely nothing concrete has been forthcoming except some honorable mentions in a book fulla hearsay (holey bible). T'were me, I think I'd rather not leave my existence up to a bunch of imaginative guesswork and rumor (oh, but I forgot, he/she/it works in mysterious ways :roll:)


HE exists, regardless of your disbelief. The thing to recall is that God does not require you to believe in Him. That you do not do so is at your own risk.
 

mapleleafgirl

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HE exists, regardless of your disbelief. The thing to recall is that God does not require you to believe in Him. That you do not do so is at your own risk.

now that actually make sense to me. i mean, if god exists, he just exists. we have to make a choice if we believe in him or not.
 

mapleleafgirl

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........ unless he/she/it didn't exist in the first place. We've usually been able to discover traces of things and set to work discovering what they're about, but in the case of Yahweh and Yeshua, absolutely nothing concrete has been forthcoming except some honorable mentions in a book fulla hearsay (holey bible). T'were me, I think I'd rather not leave my existence up to a bunch of imaginative guesswork and rumor (oh, but I forgot, he/she/it works in mysterious ways :roll:)

i think youre just saying this crap to irriate sanctus. you know that god is refered to as he, but you wanna make this other stuff up to be idoitic. fact is, if the bible is true, which i am guessing it is, you are just making a fool of yourself. the bible has existed for 2000 years or so, so it must have some validity to it.
 

L Gilbert

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Perhaps, but one thing is clear, Jesus founded the Church, and only one Church, and that Church is the Catholic Church. All other churches have a bit of the truth, but only the Catholic Church has all the truth. Let us not forget that your group left the Church, we didn't leave you.
And man invented Yeshua ..... so?

Anyway, I disbelieve the bit about "the" truth. It's probably more like the RC church has "its" truth.

You're dead right about "my group" leaving the church, or synagogue, or mosque, etc. rather than the other way around. That's another nice thing about atheism, more choice: we can disbelieve all kinds of myths. ;)
 

L Gilbert

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HE exists, regardless of your disbelief. The thing to recall is that God does not require you to believe in Him. That you do not do so is at your own risk.
For you and the faithful, he/she/it exists. The rest of us realize that he/she/it is simply a figment of homo sapiens imagination and that's the only existence it has and as such hasn't the capacity to require anything of us.
 

sanctus

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And man invented Yeshua ..... so?

Anyway, I disbelieve the bit about "the" truth. It's probably more like the RC church has "its" truth.

You're dead right about "my group" leaving the church, or synagogue, or mosque, etc. rather than the other way around. That's another nice thing about atheism, more choice: we can disbelieve all kinds of myths. ;)

Your disbelief does not change the TRUTH. You refuse to believe because of your arrogance, the arrogance of man thinking he is greater than God. The only solution is prayer, but you have already confessed the emptiness of your life having denied the Truth of Chirst and His Church.
 

L Gilbert

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i think youre just saying this crap to irriate sanctus. you know that god is refered to as he, but you wanna make this other stuff up to be idoitic. fact is, if the bible is true, which i am guessing it is, you are just making a fool of yourself. the bible has existed for 2000 years or so, so it must have some validity to it.
I don't think Sanc is irritated by me any more than our F. Henry is. After all, I think he has enough depth of character to realize that I mean absolutely no harm, but in fact, prefer to urge people to actually think about what they believe rather than just follow religious dogma and rite.
Um, the Tao Te Ching has existed for a lot longer than the holey bible and I believe that there are some extremely old writings in Sanskrit, too, so if age makes something more valid, the bible is a goner in comparison.
 
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sanctus

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For you and the faithful, he/she/it exists. The rest of us realize that he/she/it is simply a figment of homo sapiens imagination and that's the only existence it has and as such hasn't the capacity to require anything of us.


Certainly you are free to continue in your foolishness of denying the God who created you. You are free to carry on in your sinfulness rejecting the truth. That is the choice of the free will God gave to mankind in the beginning.
 

sanctus

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I don't think Sanc is irritated by me any more than our F. Henry is. After all, I think he has enough depth of character to realize that I mean absolutely no harm, but in fact, prefer to make people actually think about what they believe rather than just follow religious dogma and rite.


You are correct... you do not irritate me at all. I find your points challenging and concise. Obviously our perspectives differ, but if we were to ever meet face to face, I'd glady share a cup of wine, or a beer, with you..and dialogue into merriment the whole night long:)
 

L Gilbert

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Your disbelief does not change the TRUTH. You refuse to believe because of your arrogance, the arrogance of man thinking he is greater than God. The only solution is prayer, but you have already confessed the emptiness of your life having denied the Truth of Chirst and His Church.
Wrong, sorry. I choose to look at evidence. There is nothing to support the existence of gods, demons, leprachauns, and faeries except hearsay. Your god is man, man is god so one cannot be greater than the other.
One man's truth is another's falsehood.
Um, I can confess a lot of things that mean nothing.
 

mapleleafgirl

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Dec 13, 2006
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Wrong, sorry. I choose to look at evidence. There is nothing to support the existence of gods, demons, leprachauns, and faeries except hearsay. Your god is man, man is god so one cannot be greater than the other.
One man's truth is another's falsehood.
Um, I can confess a lot of things that mean nothing.

just because you cant see something dosent mean its not true. you cant see air and you believe in it. youve never seen plouto and you believe it there, dont you?
 

mapleleafgirl

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this is such a good topic, and so i was thinking about it last night. so if i sin, whatever the sin is, how much damage can i really do to my soul. god says he loves me no matter what so is he really going to take it out on me for some sins?i mean, is that really love if he punishes me. he knows i am weak and he knows everything so he must know i am going to sin even before i do it.
 

sanctus

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this is such a good topic, and so i was thinking about it last night. so if i sin, whatever the sin is, how much damage can i really do to my soul. god says he loves me no matter what so is he really going to take it out on me for some sins?i mean, is that really love if he punishes me. he knows i am weak and he knows everything so he must know i am going to sin even before i do it.

There is a tendency today by some in the Church only to use the word sin when they are referring to the so-called "social sins" like sexism, racism, genocide, oppression of the poor. This view has dangerous consequences: it leads to a diminution of the sense of personal responsibility for sin and personal sinfulness and so the need for personal forgiveness. The former Holy Father, Pope John Paul 2nd also deals with this question in Reconciliatio et Paenetentia (no.16):
Sin, in the proper sense, is always a personal act, since it is an act of freedom on the part of an individual person and not properly of a group or community. This individual may be conditioned, incited and influenced by numerous and powerful external factors. He may also be subjected to tendencies, defects and habits linked with his personal condition. In not a few cases such external and internal factors may attenuate, to a greater or lesser degree, the person's freedom and therefore his responsibility and guilt. But it is a truth of faith, also confirmed by our experience and reason, that the human person is free. This truth cannot be disregarded in order to place the blame for individuals' sins on external factors such as structures, systems or other people. Above all, this would be to deny the person's dignity and freedom, which are manifested - even though in a negative and disastrous way - also in this responsibility for sin committed. Hence there is nothing so personal and untransferable in each individual as merit or virtue or responsibility for sin.

As a personal act, sin has its first and most important consequences in the sinner himself: that is, in his relationship with God, who is the very foundation of human life; and also in his spirit, weakening his will and clouding his intellect.

At this point we must ask what was being referred to by those who during the preparation of the synod and in the course of its actual work frequently spoke of social sin.

The expression and the underlying concept in fact have various meanings.

To speak of social sin means in the first place to recognize that, by virtue of human solidarity which is as mysterious and intangible as it is real and concrete, each individual's sin in some way affects others. This is the other aspect of that solidarity which on the religious level is developed in the profound and magnificent mystery of the communion of saints, thanks to which it has been possible to say that "every soul that rises above itself, raises up the world." To this law of ascent there unfortunately corresponds the law of descent. Consequently one can speak of a communion of sin, whereby a soul that lowers itself through sin drags down with itself the church and, in some way, the whole world. In other words, there is no sin, not even the most intimate and secret one, the most strictly individual one, that exclusively concerns the person committing it. With greater or lesser violence, with greater or lesser harm, every sin has repercussions on the entire ecclesial body and the whole human family. According to this first meaning of the term, every sin can undoubtedly be considered as social sin.

Some sins, however, by their very matter constitute a direct attack on one's neighbor and, more exactly, in the language of the Gospel, against one's brother or sister. They are an offense against God because they are offenses against one's neighbor. These sins are usually called social sins, and this is the second meaning of the term. In this sense social sin is sin against love of neighbor, and in the law of Christ it is all the more serious in that it involves the Second Commandment, which is "like unto the first." Likewise, the term social applies to every sin against justice in interpersonal relationships, committed either by the individual against the community or by the community against the individual. Also social is every sin against the rights of the human person, beginning with the right to life and including the life of the unborn or against a person's physical integrity. Likewise social is every sin against others' freedom, especially against the supreme freedom to believe in God and adore him; social is every sin against the dignity and honor of one's neighbor. Also social is every sin against the common good and its exigencies in relation to the whole broad spectrum of the rights and duties of citizens. The term social can be applied to sins of commission or omission - on the part of political, economic or trade union leaders, who though in a position to do so, do not work diligently and wisely for the improvement and transformation of society according to the requirements and potential of the given historic moment; as also on the part of workers who through absenteeism or non- cooperation fail to ensure that their industries can continue to advance the well-being of the workers themselves, of their families and of the whole of society.

The third meaning of social sin refers to the relationships between the various human communities. These relationships are not always in accordance with the plan of God, who intends that there be justice in the world and freedom and peace between individuals, groups and peoples. Thus the class struggle, whoever the person who leads it or on occasion seeks to give it a theoretical justification, is a social evil. Likewise obstinate confrontation between blocs of nations, between one nation and another, between different groups within the same nation - all this too is a social evil. In both cases one may ask whether moral responsibility for these evils, and therefore sin, can be attributed to any person in particular. Now it has to be admitted that realities and situations such as those described, when they become generalized and reach vast proportions as social phenomena, almost always become anonymous, just as their causes are complex and not always identifiable. Hence if one speaks of social sin here, the expression obviously has an analogical meaning. However, to speak even analogically of social sins must not cause us to underestimate the responsibility of the individuals involved. It is meant to be an appeal to the consciences of all, so that each may shoulder his or her responsibility seriously and courageously in order to change those disastrous conditions and intolerable situations.

Having said this in the clearest and most unequivocal way, one must add at once that there is one meaning sometimes given to social sin that is not legitimate or acceptable even though it is very common in certain quarters today. This usage contrasts social sin and personal sin, not without ambiguity, in a way that leads more or less unconsciously to the watering down and almost the abolition of personal sin, with the recognition only of social guilt and responsibilities. According to this usage, which can readily be seen to derive from non- Christian ideologies and systems - which have possibly been discarded today by the very people who formerly officially upheld them - practically every sin is a social sin, in the sense that blame for it is to be placed not so much on the moral conscience of an individual, but rather on some vague entity or anonymous collectivity such as the situation, the system, society, structures or institutions.

Whenever the church speaks of situations of sin or when she condemns as social sins certain situations or the collective behavior of certain social groups, big or small, or even of whole nations and blocs of nations, she knows and she proclaims that such cases of social sin are the result of the accumulation and concentration of many personal sins. It is a case of the very personal sins of those who cause or support evil or who exploit it; of those who are in a position to avoid, eliminate or at least limit certain social evils but who fail to do so out of laziness, fear or the conspiracy of silence, through secret complicity or indifference; of those who take refuge in the supposed impossibility of changing the world and also of those who sidestep the effort and sacrifice required, producing specious reasons of a higher order. The real responsibility, then lies with individuals.

A situation - or likewise an institution, a structure, society itself- is not in itself the subject of moral acts. Hence a situation cannot in itself be good or bad.

At the heart of every situation of sin are always to be found sinful people. So true is this that even when such a situation can be changed in its structural and institutional aspects by the force of law or - as unfortunately more often happens - by the law of force, the change in fact proves to be incomplete, of short duration and ultimately vain and ineffective - not to say counterproductive - if the people directly or indirectly responsible for that situation are not converted.​