How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[L Gilbert]

Anyway, the bible ain't what it's cracked up to be. As I said before it is obtuse, polymous, and full of ridiculous faerie tales: one could find answers easier in an organic chemistry or a quantum physics text.

 

[look3467]

lol I'm not seeking "the" answer here. I'm simply having fun here.
Okay,
Actually, I'm not seeking anything here but conversation and fun. That’s OK to.

Um, my question of why people seem to think your god is anything but a bit of imagination has not been answered to my satisfaction yet.

It is quite simple, they cannot see.

All I get is basically the answer that people feel it in their hearts, which is an inane answer because the heart is simply a muscle which pumps reoxygenated blood around the body.

Do you know that compassion for someone comes not from a blood pumping muscle?
Where then does it come from?
There is where you will find the answer to what the heart is.
It is a spiritual thing that one loves, with respect to kindness, gentleness, joy, peace, compassion, long-suffering, loving one’s enemies.
And those attributes come only from God, because they are spiritually discerned.
It’s true that non-believers can have those same Godly attributes, the only difference is, that they are not aware of who it really is that works in them.

They cannot discern anything spiritual because the world has blinded them. Just listen to some of the answers given on this thread. Where is their spiritual discernment?

They have eyes to see, but cannot see, have ears to hear, but cannot hear, and they have hearts, but cannot understand of what heart I speak of.

Oh, maybe the answer to that is also "love", after all, you called it "the" answer. Or is it the "mysterious ways" thing again? :shock:

Spiritual love establishes who or what we are. There is a love for everything that is worldly or better known as “the lusts of the flesh”.

And then there is a love which is self sacrificing, meaning giving of one self, giving of our resources, helping a neighbor, a friend. Living right, being just and fair, kind considerate, observing the laws of the land, and like some of you said, try to live right.

If you dwell on these things then, you are exercising heart.

I am more aware of all these because they become my standard. And that standard was left in the form of a commandment from God to Jesus to us.

And those two are: Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

per say) but I find alot of elderly people are seemingly religious are still lonely. Could this be that their religious belief is due to fear drummed into them when they were young? I ask this question because there is an elderly lady (over 85) that I take out for coffee at least once a week. Her husband died 25 yrs ago, no children, one sister died and one sister really far away. We had her over for Christmas supper and try to include her in family events. What else can I do to help her, do you have any ideas?

Do what you are already doing. The main reason elderly people feel lonely isn't to do with what was "drummed" into them when they were young, but rather because we live in a culture that by and large has rejected them. They are put into Nursing or Senior's home surrounded mostly by other elderly people. This means they miss out on the vibrancy of life, the feeling of value that is so important for all people, regardless of age. I have done a great deal of ministry to elderly people and I can assure you they feel the same emptiness a young person would feel in the same circumstances. The most important thing you can do, in truth, is to include them. Make them feel they still have opinions that are valued, fears that are valid. In short, BE with her, as you would a friend of your own age. Make her feel necessary. When you think about it, this is the bottom line for all of us, to feel necessary and needed.

 

[sanctus]

that surprises me. so you dont think you need the bible to help people? whats the point of it than?

Maple, you need the Bible for yourself.In other words, to sustain your spirit by reading and absorbing its message. that is its' point. You are better able to help people if you are spiritually grounded. You should never use the Bible as a source to help people. Quoting Scripture is useless to a hungry man, or a man dying who feels alone.

 

[L Gilbert]

Spiritual love establishes who or what we are.

For some of us at least, that's not true. With me, for instance, it is not spiritual love that establishes who I am, but environment and genetics as both play a role in development of personality and character.

There is a love for everything that is worldly or better known as “the lusts of the flesh”.

And then there is a love which is self sacrificing, meaning giving of one self, giving of our resources, helping a neighbor, a friend. Living right, being just and fair, kind considerate, observing the laws of the land, and like some of you said, try to live right.

Glad you have that figured out. I figured it out without leaning on some fantasy about gods or some endless stream of sermons.

If you dwell on these things then, you are exercising heart.

Perhaps you exercise your heart that way, but I do things to make it pump faster, after all, it is a muscle and making it work hard is exercising it.

I am more aware of all these because they become my standard. And that standard was left in the form of a commandment from God to Jesus to us.

And those two are: Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Hoorah. As for the first commandment, it is non-applicable to me. The second one mentioned is fine with this old evil, hollow, loveless, and (other adjectives usually applied to atheists) type critter.
Anyway, as relatively "sinless" as I am, I still yet haven't seen anything convincing that says some superstition imbedded me with the desire to be sinless, just a great deal of hearsay. Well, sorry, but I can generate my own hearsay and be just as adamant that it is "the" truth and "the" answer.

 

[sanctus]

You've been pretty busy in here this morning sanctus, considering it's a Sunday and you're a priest. Don't you have a gig this morning? ;-).

Yup, but I was writing those posts before 7 am My first "gig" is at 8:30 a.m., to a handful of somewhat awake faithful, then again at 10:30 and at noon once more. At 2 pm I am at a Senior's Centre saying Mass, and sometimes from there I pop into one of the hospitals to catch up on a few visits.

Though today at 3 I had a real special day as I was called to sit with a 16 year old whose main purpose of the day was to end his life. I spent over two and half hours with him, and pray that maybe somehow what we discussed meant even a tiny bit to him.

No, you haven't given the impression that you think people are awful, at least not to me, What you *have* given is the message that the church's official opinion is that we're all awful underneath. Fr. Vaillancourt was pretty clear about that in the citation you started this thread with, writing about the infinite sin that burdens us all. That's what the notions of original sin and atonement seem to be all about. I too find the same kind of loneliness and angst you do in many people, and I'm sure it's one of the reasons so many turn to various forms of spirituality. They're looking for something, without really knowing what it is, and I think most of them never find it. I can't think of any other possible explanation for the depressingly high divorce rate. Very sad.

Well, I am the "Fr. Vaillancourt", and this is part of a series I am working on for a potential book project I have in mind.I admit that when I write, I tend to be dogmatic. This forum has actually helped me in my writing process because it has given me new perceptions on how to approach the material I want to write about.

People are seeking, and sometimes with such a desperate intensity that it aches within my soul that I cannot help them to see the peace I think they can feel in Christ. How does one do this, though, if one is sometimes not feeling one-self. And yes, I have been going through my own dark night of the soul lately. However, I cannot think of "ME" when dealing with others, for I must subtract what is going on inside me in order to be of assistance to other people.

I could easily adopt the "AJ" approach and just sit back and quote endless Scriptures to people, but to what end? Where does quoting Bible passages at people educate or help them? I think it does not at all. Jesus was quite clear that faith without works was empty, useless. It seeks only to serve the selrf, and that is not what any of us should be about. People are hurting around us, all of us, and the answer does not lie in Scripture, but in prayer and faith.I'm probably rambling and making little sense, but perhaps a word or two will be understood in the mixture of all this verbiage.

 

[sanctus]

Hoorah. As for the first commandment, it is non-applicable to me. The second one mentioned is fine with this old evil, hollow, loveless, and (other adjectives usually applied to atheists) type critter.
Anyway, as relatively "sinless" as I am, I still yet haven't seen anything convincing that says some superstition imbedded me with the desire to be sinless, just a great deal of hearsay. Well, sorry, but I can generate my own hearsay and be just as adamant that it is "the" truth and "the" answer.

Aj misses, I think, an important point. He often quotes this Scripture, but does not seem to realize that the beginning of loving your neighbour begins with loving yourself.

That you can not honour God is lamentable from my perception, but if you do not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear these types of words fall on deaf ears. I spent a few hours today with a young boy who has already concluded that his life was useless. At 16! 16 years old and he is already feeling lost in the business of life. What purpose is loving God to him? He does not love himself. I submit that in order to discover the Creator, we have to first have some awareness of our own need for Him. If this is not present, no amount of Biblical quotations will suffice, or answer, the questions you are asking.

 

[sanctus]

I didn't say it was, I said saying "love is the answer" is too simplistic. The Bible's an extraordinarily complex, contradictory, and confusing document.

It is very complex, and hence my ongoing point that if one is inclined to want to understand the Bible from the perspective of faith, it cannot be done by the individual. Like any perception, it is one that needs to be guided, in this case by the Church. 3/4 of what Aj writes, in my opinion, is poppycock. It is individualistic and self-seeking. That is the problem with setting the Bible alone as a standard to seek faith. It leads to false assumptions and arrogance. I despair, personally, of people who base all their faith perceptions on the premise that "I think..."is a valid point of view.

 

[L Gilbert]

Aj misses, I think, an important point. He often quotes this Scripture, but does not seem to realize that the beginning of loving your neighbour begins with loving yourself.

Hence my habit of playing with his words for my own amusement.

That you can not honour God is lamentable from my perception, but if you do not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear these types of words fall on deaf ears.

Oh, well. Crap happens.

I spent a few hours today with a young boy who has already concluded that his life was useless. At 16! 16 years old and he is already feeling lost in the business of life.

Now that is lamentable.

What purpose is loving God to him? He does not love himself.

I've met a couple or three kids like that. I usually just invite them to accompany me in doing some stuff that's part of my regular life. Stuff like hiking to places with really cool scenery, or just sitting in a good spot and watching the animals in the area, perhaps even making a piece of furniture out of wood, or carving something out of soapstone, etc. Sooner or later they express an interest in something.

I submit that in order to discover the Creator, we have to first have some awareness of our own need for Him. If this is not present, no amount of Biblical quotations will suffice, or answer, the questions you are asking.

There ya go. I'm pretty content in my existence so that's why I have no need for some such idea as a god. My path is my path and I'm on it with very few sidetracks and detours. Why you should lament that is a bit of a puzzle to me, but you are you.

 

[sanctus]

Maple luv, the bible has the answer to all our questions, just need to dig in and find them.

I’ll try to make it as short as I can. It is difficult to explain things when some are not well versed in the bible.
Sort of like a college professor teaching a course to a 1st grader. That type of comparison.Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Sighhh, ok Aj, since you put it in this fashion, what exactly are your academic credentials in terms of Biblical studies? How many degrees in this area do you posses? What qualifies your authority in these matters?

I submit to you that what you believe is not necessarily God-inspired, but only your opinion. You have no basis for your beliefs in this area since you do not seem to appreciate the context of the Scriptures. Please don't tell me that your perceptions are from the Holy Spirit. Everybody outside of the Church with a religious opinion says exactly the same thing.It boggles my mind to think of how many flavours of protestantism there are all claiming they received their teachings from the Holy Spirit and yet sometimes drastically differing in their theologies.

Without the wisdom of the Church, or the exegesis of the great doctors of the faith, your points are based only on sola interpretations.

You cannot expect to write ten thousand words interspersed with Biblical quotations and convince, at least me, that you are writing anything other than your own opinion.

The example you gave was pertinent, for that is often how I feel when I read some of your non-Scriptural theology. What qualifies you to come upon such answers.

You'll forgive me if I am coming across as somewhat nasty tonight, but I am very tired and soul-weary with the day so it has probably caused me to be somewhat impatient tonight.

 

[sanctus]

Oh, well. Crap happens. Now that is lamentable. I've met a couple or three kids like that. I usually just invite them to accompany me in doing some stuff that's part of my regular life. Stuff like hiking to places with really cool scenery, or just sitting in a good spot and watching the animals in the area, perhaps even making a piece of furniture out of wood, or carving something out of soapstone, etc. Sooner or later they express an interest in something. There ya go. I'm pretty content in my existence so that's why I have no need for some such idea as a god. My path is my path and I'm on it with very few sidetracks and detours. Why you should lament that is a bit of a puzzle to me, but you are you.

I lament because, outside of the feelings I have right now, I know that God is solace for me and so many others, and thus wish I could express this sufficiently to help others see this.

Good ideas for the lad, some of which I suggested myself. But
what is playing on my mind tonight is the fear that perhaps my words, or my attempts to comfort, may have not reached his soul where he is tearing himself apart. I wanted so badly to let him see that he is loved, and most of all by God. But in truth, I am not certain anything I said has reached him. He is so very alone even in the midst of all his "people".

 

[sanctus]

Somewhat way off topic, but in line with earlier comments, for those of you who believe in prayer, I am asking you to pray for this young man. He is 16 years old and I just now received a call from his mother that he has been taken to hospital. Apparently he has tried to kill himself with an overdose of pills, though at this point I am sketchy on the actual details.So, I am going off-line, getting dressed and going to see his family and him, but please pray for him anyway. He's a good kid, though awfully mixed up(obviously)....Sorry for the interjection of this bit of "reality".

 

[L Gilbert]

I lament because, outside of the feelings I have right now, I know that God is solace for me and so many others, and thus wish I could express this sufficiently to help others see this.

Good ideas for the lad, some of which I suggested myself. But
what is playing on my mind tonight is the fear that perhaps my words, or my attempts to comfort, may have not reached his soul where he is tearing himself apart. I wanted so badly to let him see that he is loved, and most of all by God. But in truth, I am not certain anything I said has reached him. He is so very alone even in the midst of all his "people".

Yeah, maybe he's distrusting of authority figures. (I'm presuming he knows you're a priest).
Hopefully sooner than later, something or someone will give him a direction to follow.
Izzat what Dante's "Limbo" is like? No direction? Complete disorientation? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[talloola]

Somewhat way off topic, but in line with earlier comments, for those of you who believe in prayer, I am asking you to pray for this young man. He is 16 years old and I just now received a call from his mother that he has been taken to hospital. Apparently he has tried to kill himself with an overdose of pills, though at this point I am sketchy on the actual details.So, I am going off-line, getting dressed and going to see his family and him, but please pray for him anyway. He's a good kid, though awfully mixed up(obviously)....Sorry for the interjection of this bit of "reality

My thoughts will be with him, for, having raised four daughters, and knowing many other teenagers, through, our running of sport organizations,I understand
the trials and tribulations they have, tryingto grow up with various problems,
some of which noone seems to listen to or even try to understand.

 

[look3467]

I wanted so badly to let him see that he is loved, and most of all by God. But in truth, I am not certain anything I said has reached him. He is so very alone even in the midst of all his "people". >>Sanctus

Brother Sanctus, it took a while for that young man to think and feel the way he did. Likewise, it will take time for him to regain hope in life.

Leading a person to Christ, the great physician, healer of the thoughts and intents of the heart, is what this young man needs, besides personal things.

Jesus is His hope and salvation. Getting him to realize that would transform his heart into a new heart, that of hope and worth of life.

So far this world has offered him no healing, and no favors. But God can give Him hope and joy in the midst of his suffering.

Where can you show him that God loves him? Is there any written word?
Here, look here what it says about how God loves us: Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God did not set any conditions, as evident by the word: "Whosoever”.

But how shall he know that?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is the part where training, teaching and preaching comes in, because there are many souls out there who know not God, much less know how to reach Him.
They know about Him, but they don't know Him.


Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



I’ve seen many lives change because they came to trust in Jesus.

A good salesman believes in his product. If there is no faith in the product , then there won’t be a sale.
I will voice my prayer for that young man in his behalf.


Father, to know you is to love you. And I pray right now, that you will open this young mans heart to receive your words of life. That despite any guilt that he might have in his heart, let him know that it has all been forgiven.
You gave us a promise that you would never leave us or forsake us, and I pray this young man understands that.
That You Jesus are a healer of hearts, a comforter in times of need.
I pray Lord Jesus that you lift this youngman’s spirit, and give him a peace as only you can give.
Thank you Father, in the name of Jesus, Amen.

Peace>>AJ

 

[sanctus]

My thoughts will be with him, for, having raised four daughters, and knowing many other teenagers, through, our running of sport organizations,I understand
the trials and tribulations they have, tryingto grow up with various problems,
some of which noone seems to listen to or even try to understand.

Thank you. It turned out well for him, considering. It seems he swallowed a bottle of Advil. Luckily they were able to help him, though he now has to spend a few days in hospital in the Psychiatric Ward, which is protocal for such cases. This is his third time pulling such a stunt.

Time, patience and counselling will hopefully see the boy turn around.

Interesting that one can be so alone and surrounded by people.

 

[sanctus]

Yeah, maybe he's distrusting of authority figures. (I'm presuming he knows you're a priest).
Hopefully sooner than later, something or someone will give him a direction to follow.
Izzat what Dante's "Limbo" is like? No direction? Complete disorientation? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

That's certainly the gist of Dante's Limbo. Which leads me to re-consider the work in general for how poignant it is for today's world. We have so much nowadays compared to even twenty years ago. Yet the more we accumulate and obtain, the
more the emptiness inside seems to deepen.

 

[sanctus]

Brother Sanctus, it took a while for that young man to think and feel the way he did. Likewise, it will take time for him to regain hope in life.

Leading a person to Christ, the great physician, healer of the thoughts and intents of the heart, is what this young man needs, besides
Peace>>AJ

Would you please refrain from preaching at me in future posts. You're preaching to the choir. Thank you for your positive thoughts though, however, last night was hardly the time or circumstances to preach at this young man.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

Brother Sanctus, it took a while for that young man to think and feel the way he did. Likewise, it will take time for him to regain hope in life.

Leading a person to Christ, the great physician, healer of the thoughts and intents of the heart, is what this young man needs, besides personal things.

Jesus is His hope and salvation. Getting him to realize that would transform his heart into a new heart, that of hope and worth of life.

So far this world has offered him no healing, and no favors. But God can give Him hope and joy in the midst of his suffering.

Where can you show him that God loves him? Is there any written word?
Here, look here what it says about how God loves us: Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God did not set any conditions, as evident by the word: "Whosoever”.

But how shall he know that?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is the part where training, teaching and preaching comes in, because there are many souls out there who know not God, much less know how to reach Him.
They know about Him, but they don't know Him.


Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



I’ve seen many lives change because they came to trust in Jesus.

A good salesman believes in his product. If there is no faith in the product , then there won’t be a sale.
I will voice my prayer for that young man in his behalf.


Father, to know you is to love you. And I pray right now, that you will open this young mans heart to receive your words of life. That despite any guilt that he might have in his heart, let him know that it has all been forgiven.
You gave us a promise that you would never leave us or forsake us, and I pray this young man understands that.
That You Jesus are a healer of hearts, a comforter in times of need.
I pray Lord Jesus that you lift this youngman’s spirit, and give him a peace as only you can give.
Thank you Father, in the name of Jesus, Amen.

Peace>>AJ

how would this help him last night? yeah i get your point, but you cant preach this to a guy who just tried to off himself.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

Maple, since you've more or less admitted to being young and seeking, and from the great heights of my ancient wisdom ;-) I'd also suspect someone so young might be impressionable, the first lesson should be that that statement is simply not correct.

And the second lesson might be that the Internet probably isn't a good place to find what you're looking for. About 80% of what's here is crap. I mean the Internet generally, not this discussion board, or even this thread. This place is pretty good, though like any other board it has the usual complement of transient trolls, weirdos, and dipsticks, but what you're looking for will come only from real life and real people, for which this is no substitute. Not that I'm suggesting you should go away, by all means stay around and keep talking with us, just don't make it the centre of your seeking.

thanks. im not. im using as one of my sources though and reading allot of stuff online that people suggest. thats the same kind of stufff sanctus told me in a private pm to me a few days ago.

i dont know what the answer is, but ive got the question down cold.

i do believe theres a god, i just dont know how i see him or her yet.so far, of everything i am reading, the catholic stuff makes the most sense to me, but even that i got some issues about now.