Head Hunting in the NHL

[talloola]

I don't mind the sincere fights, those that instantly break out from two players who actually get
mad together at what they are doing together, I do understand the high intensity of the game, and
don't expect players to 'always' be calm and collected about everything that goes on out there.

I hate the fights that are fought after an agreement before puck drops, then they drop the gloves
right after the whistle.

Actually the one crosby has last week was like that, crosby was angry with 'this' player at what he
did to his player, who was still recovering from a hand injury, so he challenged the player before
the whistle, but the ones I'm referring to, are two players who just want to be noticed by their
coaches, they don't get much ice time, and want to make an impact while on the ice.

The improvements they are making and continuing to make, have nothing to do with fighting, but have
to do with dangerous type hits, and I am pleased at the effort NHL is putting forth. Nothing stops
instantly, but as the suspensions become more severe, those hits will be cut down as far as they can
possibly go, as the player doesn't want to miss games, but they don't care about paying out money. The more suspensions they receive, the longer they will be out.

I don't believe they should take out the instigator rule, that will bring back the'fighters', who are not
really excellent players, and we don't need to go back to that, we don't want those players back in the
game.

We have one very good fighter on the canucks, ripien, but he also is a very good skater, and a decent fourth
line player, so he can contribute to the success of the team, without fighting at all, and he doesn't
fight often, once in a while.

 

[shadowshiv]

Bullsh!t

Do you care to elaborate on this? What do you disagree with?

 

[Just the Facts]

The proof is in the playing-Olympic hockey with NHL grade players is much faster and exciting than the product the NHL puts out now.

There's no comparison there, you're talking apples and oranges. If the NHL season consisted of a round robin followed by single game elimination rounds you'd see a big diiference....Olympic hockey would look slow and boring in comparison.

Take the fighting out of hockey/call the games tight and watch the goons wither and eventually the product will improve.

As will the fan base. You can tell how much the fans hate fighting whenever one breaks out, eh. And calling games tight is what they did the last few years and the games became unwatchable, nothing but a special teams contest in a penalty fest. They finally loosened up a bit last year and this year seems much better. Lesson learned.

I agree with a lot of what you said, except the talent pool. If Bobby Orr parachuted into this league in the exact same shape he was in in 1973 they'd put him into he minors. The talent level is light years ahead of any previous era.

Well yeah, his knee was already buggered up by '73. Let's talk '69!

Sure the technology of physical fitness has come a long way, but why wouldn't someone like Bobby Orr benefit from that if he was time machined up? He's still the greatest player that ever lived.

Bobby Orr had some talent no doubt but his big thing was his end to end rush with the puck. He was hardly the best team player.

Yikes, never heard that before. Those are just what make the highlite reels. He was very much a team player. If you were in scoring position Bobby would put it on your tape.

 

[talloola]

There's no comparison there, you're talking apples and oranges. If the NHL season consisted of a round robin followed by single game elimination rounds you'd see a big diiference....Olympic hockey would look slow and boring in comparison.



As will the fan base. You can tell how much the fans hate fighting whenever one breaks out, eh. And calling games tight is what they did the last few years and the games became unwatchable, nothing but a special teams contest in a penalty fest. They finally loosened up a bit last year and this year seems much better. Lesson learned.



Well yeah, his knee was already buggered up by '73. Let's talk '69!

Sure the technology of physical fitness has come a long way, but why wouldn't someone like Bobby Orr benefit from that if he was time machined up? He's still the greatest player that ever lived.

If bobby orr was a kid today, and had the training and coaching and equipment that todays players have
he would make the NHL, he didn't have those things, he was the best of 'his' time, 'not' this time,
everything has become better, and bobby orr will be the first to say it.

 

[Just the Facts]

If bobby orr was a kid today, and had the training and coaching and equipment that todays players have
he would make the NHL, he didn't have those things, he was the best of 'his' time, 'not' this time,
everything has become better, and bobby orr will be the first to say it.

Yup, no argument here. Given your scenario he'd more than make the NHL though. Talent is talent and given the benefit of modern training techniques he'd be the best today too.

 

[talloola]

Yup, no argument here. Given your scenario he'd more than make the NHL though. Talent is talent and given the benefit of modern training techniques he'd be the best today too.

The cream that rose to the top back then was much less in numbers, there are quite a few great players
in the game today, and he would have been among them.
today he would not have been a 'big' man in the game today, and the defencemen in the game today are
extremely big, 'not all', but most, and talented.

He would not be able to skate through everyone in todays game as he could then, the defencemen are so
much bigger and more talented than they were back then, it is much more difficult. The defence can be
taught, and have been taught so efficiently that the great forwards cannot stick handle through them,
as some did back then, the team game is much more prevalent today, they have to use each other, as there
are no heros who can go end to end, it is a rarity, only happens occasionally.

The technique of the game today is deep and detailed, there is a coach for everything, and the chalk board
is a serious part of the game.

I believe he would have been a very good defencemen today, and would be in the NHL, but I don't think he
would come near to being the stand out he was back then.

Even Wayne Gretzky, when interviewed exclaims how big and talented the players are today, and admits he
would be intimidated by them, but he is being modest, as he would be in the NHL too, if he was a young
guy right now, as his vision on the ice was second to none, his passing, and shooting were pin point
accurate, and he wasn't a great skater, but had a talent that no one can teach.

 

[Just the Facts]

I disagree. I'll turn it around on ya.... send Sydney Crosby back to 1970 and have him play through what Orr had to put up with on a regular basis. Syd would pick up his ball and go home without a doubt. Look at all the whining out of Syd his rookie year. Compare that to the physical abuse Orr played with before the Gretzky era of the bodyguard and "don't touch him, he's a star" mentality. Bobby was a player, not a diva.

it is a rarity, only happens occasionally.

It was rare then, too. That's what singles Bobby out as great. He didn't become a legend by being ordinary.

 

[talloola]

I disagree. I'll turn it around on ya.... send Sydney Crosby back to 1970 and have him play through what Orr had to put up with on a regular basis. Syd would pick up his ball and go home without a doubt. Look at all the whining out of Syd his rookie year. Compare that to the physical abuse Orr played with before the Gretzky era of the bodyguard and "don't touch him, he's a star" mentality. Bobby was a player, not a diva.



It was rare then, too. That's what singles Bobby out as great. He didn't become a legend by being ordinary.

he would never be a legend in todays hockey, faster, bigger, more talented, better goalies, better coaching,
that is just the way it goes, as does all sports, and many other facets of life, we have to accept
that, and not pretend the good ole days were better, it just doesn't work that way.
he would be a very good defenceman, just as many others are in the league today. the players get hit
hard now, from players who are coming at them much faster than any of them did back then., and they are
much bigger, the hits are harder, but there is no cluthing and holding, thus the game flows faster, not disrupted by
all the stoppage of play because of hanging on.

if he wound up to make his end to end rushes as he did back then, he would fail. Duncan Keith on Chicago
is a top defenceman, excellent talent in everything he does, but he doesn't skate thru the team, he has
to be very very fast at receiving the puck and delivering it immediately, no time to travel very far, but
watch him for a while, he is amazing nontheless, and lidstrom on detroit as well, who is a very precise
palyer, passes beautifully, a defenceman anyone would want on their team.

the hockey back then was the 'dead' puck era, and called that for good reason, right
up to the lock out, then it changed, and changed for the better.

sydney crosby would have been a star back then, or now, any of the players who
are stars now, would have been super stars back then.
crosby has put up with a lot, if you want to ignore his talent and just consider
him a whiner, then you a missing the point.
they use to call gretzky a whiner too, he got tired of people grabbing and holding
him, which they would not be able to do today, but today the game is much faster,
with better skating.

Just put on one of those old games and watch it from start to finish, they become
yawners, I saw them all then, just as I do now.
It's fun to watch highlights of super stars, lefleur was my favourite player, but
he would not be today, what he was then, if he played now, the same as he played
then, none of them would, including bobby orr, whom I watched all the time.

 

[Just the Facts]

he would never be a legend in todays hockey, faster, bigger, more talented, better goalies, better coaching,
that is just the way it goes, as does all sports, and many other facets of life, we have to accept
that, and not pretend the good ole days were better, it just doesn't work that way.

lol true but we're not talking about the good old days, we're talking about Bobby Orr.

He could handle himself then, he could handle himself now. You won't find a highlite reel like this one for Gretzky or Crosby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3AhKTaenqQ&feature=related

lol compare that to this display of Getzky bravado:

YouTube - Gretzky pissed at Norton 3/19/94


( as an aside check out the quote in the clip near the end - "that being Wayne Gretzky, Fraser just let's it go" - lol Leaf fans are too familiar with THAT aspect of Fraser. )

I trust the Leafs have signed the rights to this guy:

YouTube - Next Gretzky

 

[talloola]

lol true but we're not talking about the good old days, we're talking about Bobby Orr.
bobby orr is part of the good ole days, that's just the facts, can't change that.

----------------------------------------------------

My opinion doesn't change, I am talking about the whole league of NHL players, which has changed big time
from then till now, no comparison, doesn't matter what little details one shows, it is the 'whole' I
am referring to, and that includes the likes of bobby orr and others of his level back then, compared
to the players of today. The personalities of players have no bearing on these facts, and the liking
of one player compared to another have no bearing, and what one players says or doesn't say, has no
bearing.
I understand you 'love' bobby orr, that is great, I liked him as a player too, he was great, let it
stay there, where it belongs, it doesn't belong in the present.

The whole league is much better today, starting with the coaches, trainers, doctors, equipment, and
most of all the players.
We can't have bobby orr be born again, if we could, then he could grow up with all of the advantages
the players of today had growing up, then he would be in the NHL, and he would be a good defenseman,
but never with the ability to do what he did when he played back then, it would be impossible.

The same goes for guy lefleur, my favourite back then, and many others, they lived then, not now.

Some years down the road, all of todays players will be retired and middle aged, and some just downright
old, and those who watched them 'now', will be remembering 'back when', and it will be interesting to
see how different the game is then, compared to now, not sure just how much faster they can get, maybe
the league is nearing the limit of human abilities, 'but, maybe not', we'll see, well, I hope i'm
here in 20 years or so, then I can remember too, just like I remember all of the 'bobby orr' generation,
and it is black and white between then and now.
All of the sports have their yesteryear heros, and they are respected and remembered, but so many records
they hold have been broken many times over.
I don't think it is possible for players to break a few of gretzky's records, but never say never.

 

[wulfie68]

This is one where I disagree, Talloola. I'm with Justthefacts on this subject, because I think talent is talent. The NHL of today is almost a reversion to what hockey used to be in the late 70s and 80 with the skating of teams like Lafleur's Habs, Bossy's Isles and Gretzky's Oilers. I always hated the Oilers, used to call them the Whiners, and I hated the way Gretzky was after the officials all the time but I always had to admit they won their Cups because they didn't draft anyone who couldn't skate. Even after their glory days Todd Marchant was a typical Oiler draft pick/prospect/player: he didn't have very good hands but he could skate like the wind, and to win, thats always been a key...except for when the New Jersey Devil clutch-and-grab mentality won out as the preferred counter to speed, in the late 80s and 90s.

The guys are in better shape reporting to camp, no question. Technology gives them edges in protection, performance and injury recovery, again no question. Coaching has improved and become more scientific in its approaches. But in the end, all these are the improvements a gem cutter makes on the stone he is working with. Sometimes, if there's a screw up, you can have junk players, but the valuable ones always maintain that value no matter what you do to them and the right improvements just add value.

 

[talloola]

This is one where I disagree, Talloola. I'm with Justthefacts on this subject, because I think talent is talent. The NHL of today is almost a reversion to what hockey used to be in the late 70s and 80 with the skating of teams like Lafleur's Habs, Bossy's Isles and Gretzky's Oilers. I always hated the Oilers, used to call them the Whiners, and I hated the way Gretzky was after the officials all the time but I always had to admit they won their Cups because they didn't draft anyone who couldn't skate. Even after their glory days Todd Marchant was a typical Oiler draft pick/prospect/player: he didn't have very good hands but he could skate like the wind, and to win, thats always been a key...except for when the New Jersey Devil clutch-and-grab mentality won out as the preferred counter to speed, in the late 80s and 90s.

The guys are in better shape reporting to camp, no question. Technology gives them edges in protection, performance and injury recovery, again no question. Coaching has improved and become more scientific in its approaches. But in the end, all these are the improvements a gem cutter makes on the stone he is working with. Sometimes, if there's a screw up, you can have junk players, but the valuable ones always maintain that value no matter what you do to them and the right improvements just add value.

all the players today are good skaters and can play, but of course there are many levels of talent, even
in todays game, and within a team, yes, 1 thru 4th line, breaks down the different styles and talents
of all of the players on that team, and hopefully gives the team the balance it needs to play their
best.
lots of the very very talented goal scorers, wouldn't do that well on the fourth line., each line has
it's value and job to do.

there were too many questionable skaters, and also poor players on the old teams, the tough guys, the
protectors, and the big players were not that big, now they are, with talent and great skating.

defensive talent and high ability 'can' be taught by good coaches, and in todays
game, some say the defense has been taught to such a detailed strategy, it takes
away from the offense because a good defense can take away the scoring ability
of very good offensive players, and of course there are some exceptions.But at least they take away the scoring ability with a learned ability and strategy,
and not by clutching and grabbing and pinning, etc., like they use to do back then.
Special teams are key in todays game, both penalty killing and power play, without
being good at both, a team cannot succeed, and also faceoff 'wins'.

Hence, canucks lost last night because they could not win a faceoff, and their
powerplay sucked, and up till last night they were first in the league with their
power play, and very good on face offs.

I think booguard (sp?) Scored a goal last night, how did that happen, he is one of the very few
very bad players left in the league, the goal was unassisted, so that tells me the
puck must have bounced off of him from a stick of the opposition, anybody know?