Harper Tough on Crime

[nomore]

How orginal. Very American. Why don't we make Canada the 51 state now. BTW we can see how well these tactics have worked in the USA.

However if Harper was more of a moderate he could see a blending of Left and Right ideology might work. Social programs mixed in with criminal reform and str the police forces with people from the community who represent the community.

thats my blurb

i concur, finder.

the solution lies in social programs and social reform. Tough sentencing is not the solution to the problems. It is a reactionary approach. As we have seen in the US, all it does in result in an increase in prison populations.

This is just another example of how Harper swings and misses. If only this were like baseball. Harper has long surpassed his three strikes so we would be rid of him!

Unfortunatly you are very wrong.

Per capita the U.S spends more on scocial welfare programs than Canada does.
The problem is not as cut and dry as you put it. Many of the crime problems in the U.S stem from Historical issues, population density, and gun ownership, which is also an education and historical issue in itself. Canada also already has, and has had for years, much stricter gun laws, especially on hand guns. So you can't compare Canada to the U.S

Infact, the homicide rate has been going up in Canada despite the increase in social spending.

By your philosophy, you are basically giving people encentives to become a criminal. Commit a crime and we will give you a bunch of free stuff, because "they are victims" (yeah right).

The fact of the matter is, and it is statistically proven, is that increases of scocial programs increases dependancy on thoses systems, it dosen't promote self sufficient citizens, and actually only increases animosity between citizens. Increased social spending only widens the gap between groups of people, and also has negative ecconomic effects, which in turn ends up having a negative effect on the welfare of it's citizens.

Proper education is key to reducing the problems before they start. Also proper family values are key, where parents can teach their children values, The "state" should not be interfearing in family education like it is trying to do.

 

[the caracal kid]

no, nomore,

we agree the problems stem from society, but in creating a society of opportunity for all opposed to a society of opportunity of those that rise to the top we are not awarding criminals, but greatly reducing the need for acts classified as criminal.

Proper education is a major part, and proper education can not be trusted to the hands of parents.

 

[Jay]

"Proper education is a major part, and proper education can not be trusted to the hands of parents."


It is statements like that, caracal kid, that make me fear the left.

 

[the caracal kid]

Jay,

if every parent were an expert in every field and had the qualities of a good teacher, the issue would not come up.

However, we know this is not the case. A parent carries limitations that are a product of their own past. To ensure the breaking of cycles that are destructive in nature, the state has a role to play (since it can be the only one to be able to.) Now the state need not be "federal", it can also be local, but it must act.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Harper Tough on Crime

Jay,

if every parent were an expert in every field and had the qualities of a good teacher, the issue would not come up.

However, we know this is not the case. A parent carries limitations that are a product of their own past. To ensure the breaking of cycles that are destructive in nature, the state has a role to play (since it can be the only one to be able to.) Now the state need not be "federal", it can also be local, but it must act.

As long as I am taking care of my child's physical needs, providing them with an education equivalent to that in public schools (not difficult), and protecting them from abuse, the state has absolutely no say in how I bring them up.

One of the biggest problems I have with the concept of a state day-care system is that it will be used to cram a child's head full of politically correct crap.

in my opinion, the longer kids are kept clear of the corrupting influence of the state, the better off they are.

 

[the caracal kid]

spoken like a true rebel, colpy.

 

[Jay]

The state has a tendency to act in its own best interest.

It's kinda funny though, my wife’s a teacher and she went through "teacher's college" like they all have to in Ontario. Wanna know what she said about teachers collage? She said it was a joke. I say public education is a joke and is used in Ontario to raise socialists to pay too much in taxes, and to believe there is no other way. It is done, once again, under the guise of “what about the poor”? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I mean really though, is it any wonder the Germans invented kindergarten?

 

[the caracal kid]

Everything acts in its own self interests.

A quick posting of the origins of the public school system would show you that!

I am not saying the current system is the system we should be using, but that parents are the biggest source of faulty knowledge being passed on down. That is why parents can not be trusted with education.

 

[Jay]

Fortunately you can still home school your kids.

I was raised by sheep who sent me to a school dictated to by wolves.

 

[missile]

My daughter home schools her two boys and they seem to be reasonably intelligent.

 

[the caracal kid]

homeschooling works so long as parents have access to the resources necessary. Now where do those resources come from? How does the parent determine the quality and accuracy of texts? etc.

The state won't ever attempt to prevent home-schooling, but remember the quality of that schooling is only as good as the knowledge of the parent (and the resources available to that parent).

"you don't know what you don't know" comes to mind. if a parent is devoid of any understanding of a subject they are in a poor position to present it to a child. Again, parents are the biggest source of misinformation being passed along.

 

[Jay]

The recourses are available everywhere and so is help for the parents who want it.

The people who home school aren't apt to be the ignorant ones...

In reality though, JK - grade 9 isn't intrinsically hard or anything, at least to parents. Calculus on the other hand may get overlooked...I know I didn't take it in school, because I didn't need to figure out the volume a barrel would hold.

 

[nomore]

Education, as far as standard subjects go, is the farthest the state should be educating our children. However the only ones that can truly teach children values and morals are the parents. They know what is best for their own children, not some far distant centralized government.

 

[Jay]

I think this is some of main obstacles between left and right.

 

[the caracal kid]

it is not about left vs right, jay.

it is about addressing the core of dysfunction within society. Only a minority of parents (those with enough breadth of study and experience) could be trusted with their own offspring. It is the parents that extend ignorance and dogma from generation to generation, cancelling out much of the potential for the future generations.

To build a better society, certian actions must be taken. A house is only as solid as its foundation.

Of course, if we are speaking of the current system, there is not much difference! Plebs homeschooling or public schooling are both in effect working to produce more plebs. "95% of the population is there soley to elevate the other 5%"

 

[Jay]

I understand what your saying...I just don't agree.

 

[the caracal kid]

Then how would you build a better society?

 

[nomore]

The first step would be not giving people a free ride on the backs of honest hard working people. Social programs and assistance should be ONLY for the ones who truly need it. Not just any joe blow who feels like taking advantage. Socialst systems breed a society of lazy, bad attitude citizens.

Just to add to that, it also breeds a culture where people feel nothing they do is wrong, it's all because of someone or something else. People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions and their own bad choices in their lives, it should not become society's burden.

 

[Jay]

Then how would you build a better society?

Better is a relative word, and I doubt we would agree on what is better. And I suppose "better" could be influenced greatly by the external forces we compete against.
I would say thought that “better” is one of the reasons I’m a conservative…what is better for you isn’t better for me (maybe) and instead of the state dictating to both of us; we do what we will ( ie less government).


I'm a romantic when it comes to this sorta thing. I believe in individualism and freedom and the less encompassing state....the inherent integrity of the people, such as the American people.

A good example of nanny state mentality (the not better IMO) would be current day university students who whine about tuition fees. Clearly these people have been coddled to such degree they believe we owe them something we don't. They haven't a guilty mind (IMO); they just don't know any “better”.


I suppose (I think to myself as I write this) you prefer a hands on approach, and I prefer a hands off approach…..

I’m not always so great at putting into words my opinions; you’ll have to forgive me if I’m unclear here.

 

[the caracal kid]

while hands off sounds wonderful,

the nature of the human is to serve himself first,
and then when it benefits him to serve society.

this does not create a strong society,
it creates a framework of opportunism.

By applying social control, we are able to mold a more compassionate framework.
Humans take well to social programming.
In its correct utilization, we can encourage the growth of social conscience, of greater understanding.

Now this is a two edged sword.
I am not disguising the rather unpleasent potential of social control.
We have social engineering at play in any type of society though,
and we should use it to create a foundation the provides opportunity for happiness to all.
Of course, i have not really expressed what this better society is, although you have probably guessed by now i see it time to progress beyond a goods based economy and openly recognize the weaknesses inherent in capitalism as being the same weaknesses found in its two siblings.

The integrity of the people we can count on, in a free system is that of man vs man.
It is in Man vs Man we experience crime,
and thus to eliminate crime, we must provide positive avenues to all citizens and reduce the desires that fuel selfishness.

We have the tools and knowledge to make society whatever we want it to be.
We, should act on it in good social consciousness, not out of greed for power, privilage, wealth or other selfish desires.