Harper letter dismissed Kyoto a money-sucking socialist scheme

[CDNBear]

I suspect that the majority of climate change skeptics are not educated to understand the details of climate change. Hence the dinosaurs didn't drive comment I just read in an ignorant response to this thread. It's like a non-mechanic declaring that s/he went "wubba-wubba" and the car started, so really, it doesn't need the fixing the mechanic is suggesting. Why is it that the types who seem the least bit concerned about climate change are the ones who would drive their snowmobile out on the frozen lake to check if it's frozen?

But the dinosaurs didn't drive!!!

Are you trying to tell us they did???

An ignorant response eh?

Seeing as you failed to notice, no one has claimed that climate change isn't real, some of us argue the motives of these scientists.

Why is it that the types who seem unable to grasp the jist of someones position are the ones who miss the thin ice sign posted on the last tree in the tree line to the huts?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Harper and the Conservatives made their feelings about Global Warming clear their first year in power. Under Rona Ambrose as environment minister, next to nothing was done to regualate CO2 emissions. They were going to let industry set the standards.

As soon as Stephane Dion is elected Liberal leader, they suddenly have an evironmental rebirth?

Biards' statement that the destruction of much of Stanley Park is a "wake up call" is humorous. The wake up call went out a decade ago he and many others slept through it. It's called Kyoto and the fact is it was meant as a starting point, much more will need to be done to slow the current climate change.

Harper and the Conservatives(Reform,Alliance) are hypocrits, they did everything they could to make the political price for supporting Kyoto as high as possible and now they blame the Liberals for lack of progress.

 

[CDNBear]

Yes...

1 year of doing nothing vs. 13 years of doing nothing.

And that makes the cons the only hypocrits in the house.

Good greif.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Yes...

1 year of doing nothing vs. 13 years of doing nothing.

And that makes the cons the only hypocrits in the house.

Good greif.

The Liberals supported Kyoto, that's more than the Consevatives have been doing till now.

Let's not forget how complex the political situation has been in Canada since the fall of the last Conservative government. The official opposition after the mess Mulroney left us in was dedicated to tearing the country apart. The Liberals had their hands full for years just keeping Canada alive as a political entity. The Reform then the Alliance was busy trying to pull the country in the other direction. To say that politics have been divisive in Canada is a vast understatement. The fact we're here talking about a Canadian response to climate change is largely due to the efforts of the Liberals who held the country together.

As I watch the New Consevartive Party play the same sort of games that lead to the soveirgnty crisis in the 1990s, i just shake my head at how short sighted some people are.

 

[CDNBear]

The Liberals supported Kyoto, that's more than the Consevatives have been doing till now.

Let's not forget how complex the political situation has been in Canada since the fall of the last Conservative government. The official opposition after the mess Mulroney left us in was dedicated to tearing the country apart. The Liberals had their hands full for years just keeping Canada alive as a political entity. The Reform then the Alliance was busy trying to pull the country in the other direction. To say that politics have been divisive in Canada is a vast understatement. The fact we're here talking about a Canadian response to climate change is largely due to the efforts of the Liberals who held the country together.

As I watch the New Consevartive Party play the same sort of games that lead to the soveirgnty crisis in the 1990s, i just shake my head at how short sighted some people are.

And the justification and hypocritical excuses continue...

Bring in the clowns, I'm getting bored with the same old same old!!!

I guess signing a piece of paper means more then actually doing something for some.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Admitting there's a problem is the first step to taking action, something the Conservative government wasn't willing to do until it became a political imperative. Most of their energy has been put into attacking the former government not in developing an effective policy. I really don't care what Stephane Dions' dog is named, I want my government to pull it's collective head out of the sand and do something about a serious and growing problem that until recently it denied existed.

This born again environmentalism on the part of Harper is a joke.

 

[Tonington]

Too much to respond to.

First off, with comments towards Harper turning green because of polls, we could similarilly comment on liberals electing a green leader. It is politics on both sides after all.

Jack Layton has been green for some time, but I tihnk he rubs the majoity of Canadians the wrong way when he talks about our military objectives.

I'll admit that I prefer Dion to Harper, that said there are policies of Harpers that are in-line with my priorities as well. Environment is a big issue for me, number 1 actually. Probably not a big shock to anyone. Not to derail this thread but I do support Harper's military stance, currently. If things were to change drastically, that might force a change in my opinion.

Back to the whole Kyoto topic. Even for my environmental leanings, I also understand that Kyoto is not the only tool at our disposal. We have an Environmental Protection Act and a Clean Air Bill that although the latter is locked in hearings, if reworded and amended could yield results. The two have some cross over in areas covered, and should be amended to eliminate confusing double coverage. If Dion wins, I would like to see some original ideas, more policy sharing between proven programs used in other countries, and some unique economic plans to really deal how we can make it work. It doesn't have to be drastic, but it should be progressive.

I'm sure this is an issue that will need to have input from a variety of sectors and departments. Rash decisions and general impatience is what gives you a treaty like Kyoto, that said for our own policies, we don't need the approval of other nations. We have to lead on this issue. I hope for a minority government again. I hope different parties can be concilliatory and realize the gravity of the situation. Perhaps I'm still too much of an idealist, but I firmly believe that proper public discourse and sharing of information is paramount.

Useless quibbling over who is more inept is a wasted effort.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

It comes down to honesty for me, I think Dion is more genuine than Harper when it comes to dealing with Global Warming. Harpers' main goal is a majority government and he'll do or say almost anything to get it.

 

[Toro]

This born again environmentalism on the part of Harper is a joke.

So? Who cares?

Isn't the end result what matters?

The earth doesn't care if policies are implemented because of cynicism or sincerity.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

So? Who cares?

Isn't the end result what matters?

The earth doesn't care if policies are implemented because of cynicism or sincerity.

Harper doesn't care, that's my point. The only reason this is an issue for him is because of it's politically importance right now. Dion is running on an environmental platform and Harper has to follow if he wants to maintain his minority, much less win a majority government in the next election.

If the politcal pressure is off, what are the chances he'll go back to his former stance on the environment? It's possible he'll be more concerned with protecting the oil and gas industry over the environment. Especially considering his actions in the past.

 

[CDNBear]

Too much to respond to.

First off, with comments towards Harper turning green because of polls, we could similarilly comment on liberals electing a green leader. It is politics on both sides after all.

Jack Layton has been green for some time, but I tihnk he rubs the majoity of Canadians the wrong way when he talks about our military objectives.

I'll admit that I prefer Dion to Harper, that said there are policies of Harpers that are in-line with my priorities as well. Environment is a big issue for me, number 1 actually. Probably not a big shock to anyone. Not to derail this thread but I do support Harper's military stance, currently. If things were to change drastically, that might force a change in my opinion.

Back to the whole Kyoto topic. Even for my environmental leanings, I also understand that Kyoto is not the only tool at our disposal. We have an Environmental Protection Act and a Clean Air Bill that although the latter is locked in hearings, if reworded and amended could yield results. The two have some cross over in areas covered, and should be amended to eliminate confusing double coverage. If Dion wins, I would like to see some original ideas, more policy sharing between proven programs used in other countries, and some unique economic plans to really deal how we can make it work. It doesn't have to be drastic, but it should be progressive.

I'm sure this is an issue that will need to have input from a variety of sectors and departments. Rash decisions and general impatience is what gives you a treaty like Kyoto, that said for our own policies, we don't need the approval of other nations. We have to lead on this issue. I hope for a minority government again. I hope different parties can be concilliatory and realize the gravity of the situation. Perhaps I'm still too much of an idealist, but I firmly believe that proper public discourse and sharing of information is paramount.

Useless quibbling over who is more inept is a wasted effort.

Here! Here!

 

[MikeyDB]

So? Who cares?

Isn't the end result what matters?

The earth doesn't care if policies are implemented because of cynicism or sincerity.

I agree Toro it shouldn't and doesn't matter. Perhaps you're not familiar with the character of the Canadian Parliament...

Crossing the floor has become so popular it's being considered by the International Olypic Commitee as a new event. Whether he/she is a Liberal a Conservative or an NDP-er a prerequisite for Canadian politics is the capacity and preparedness to flip 180 degrees at the murmur of a poll...

Theives and liars just like American politicians.

 

[temperance]

ok is a good time line --backround ?



The Kyoto Protocol Issue in Canada

The Kyoto Protocol is an international agreement reached in 1997 in Kyoto, Japan to address the problems of climate change and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Canada signed the Kyoto Protocol in 1998, and after a Parliamentary debate formally ratified it in December 2002. The Liberal government at the time agreed to reduce Canadian greenhouse gas emissions by six per cent below 1990 levels by the five-year commitment period of 2008 to 2012. The Canadian Conservative government elected in January 2006 says that the Kyoto Protocol targets are unrealistic and unachievable. The government plans to focus on developing "made-in-Canada" solutions, to spend all money for the environment on the Canadian environment rather than on international credits, and to put the emphasis on the development and deployment of clean technology.
Latest Developments

• CBC reports that 40 percent of the climate change budgets at Environment Canada and Natural Resources have been cut. Programs cut include the One Tonne Challenge, a high-profile public education campaign on climate change, and the popular EnerGuide Retrofit Incentive Program of grants to help make Canadian homes more energy-efficient.
• Both Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Environment Minister Rona Ambrose have been expressing interest publicly in the Asia-Pacific Partnership on Clean Development and Climate, also called AP6 or Kyoto Lite, as an alternative to the Kyoto Protocol.
• Rona Ambrose has come under fire from both political and environment opponents who say she is trying to sabotage negotiations on the second phase of the Kyoto Protocol.

Background

• The Kyoto Protocol is a UN-led international agreement reached in 1997 in Kyoto, Japan to address the problems of climate change and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The Kyoto Protocol went into force in February 2005.
• The Kyoto Protocol involves moving away from fossil fuel energy sources - oil, gas, and coal - to renewable sources of energy - hydro, wind and solar power - and to less environmentally harmful ways of burning fossil fuels.
• Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide are mainly generated by burning fossil fuels. Higher levels of greenhouse gas emissions cause global warming and climate change.
• The Kyoto Protocol commits 38 industrialized countries to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 2008-2012 to overall levels that are 5.2 percent below 1990 levels. Targets for greenhouse gas emissions reduction were established for each industrialized country. Developing countries including China and India were asked to set voluntary targets for greenhouse gas emissions.
• The Canadian target for the Kyoto Protocol is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by six percent below their 1990 levels by 2012.
• The United States did not ratify the Kyoto Protocol, and in February 2002 introduced the Clean Skies and Global Climate Change initiatives, in which targets for reduction in greenhouse gas emissions are linked directly to GDP and the size of the U.S. economy.
• In April 2005, the Liberal government issued a revised implementation plan and pledged $10 billion to cut greenhouse gases by 270 megatonnes a year by 2008-2012. Emission targets for large industrial polluters were relaxed.
• During the 2006 federal election campaign the Conservatives said they did not support the Kyoto Protocol. However, since winning the election with just a minority, the Conservative government members have been a little more circumspect in their comments, and instead talk about the targets being unrealistic or unachievable.

 

[Tonington]

I know that nations like China and India are left of because they are "developing" countries, but one would have to give consideration to the fact that they are also industrialized nations, given that they are both large manufacturing nations. It would be interesting to look at the number of power plants on a per capita basis, comparing developed nations to the developing nations like China and India.

 

[CDNBear]

China is planning on building over 500 coal fire electric facilities, that should more then wipe out the difference all the other nations make, combined.

 

[temperance]

(K): Any predictions on how this one is going to go down in the House today?
____________________________


CBC News - Monday, February 5, 2007

MPs to vote on motion that supports Kyoto

Members of Parliament will be voting Monday evening on a motion from
Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion that would reaffirm Canada's support for the
Kyoto Protocol.

When asked how the Conservatives will vote, Minister of Environment John
Baird declined to answer directly but said "in the best interest of
Canadians."

CBC News has learned that Conservative MPs will have to vote the way the
party says, meaning they're unlikely to support Dion's motion.

Shortly before Question Period, NDP Leader Jack Layton told CBC News his
party will be supporting the motion.

"We have the chance to make it happen," he said, adding his party has
always supported the Kyoto accord.

On Feb. 1, Dion tabled the motion calling on the Tory government to
reaffirm Canada's commitment to the accord, which was signed by the
Liberals when they were in power.

Dion's motion demands the government "honour the principles and targets of
the Kyoto Protocol in their entirety," and calls on the Tories to create
and publish a "credible" plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The motion comes as both parties hammer each other on their environmental
record, and follows the recently surfaced letter Prime Minister Stephen
Harper wrote in 2002 that derided the Kyoto accord.

The letter described Kyoto as a "socialist scheme" that is based on
"tentative and contradictory scientific evidence" and designed to suck
money out of rich countries.

Harper has since said he accepts the science of climate change, but the
Tories have said that Canada has no chance of meeting its emissions
targets under the accord and must set more realistic goals for reducing
greenhouse gases.

Canada was one of the first countries to sign the Kyoto accord, on April
29, 1998. The Tories have said that the Liberals may have signed the
agreement, but did nothing while in power to combat greenhouse gas emissions.
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We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyone's
arguing over where they're going to sit. - David Suzuki

 

[temperance]

I see exactly what you both mean about emerging country B.S gee ,both countries will be surpassing U.S by the end of the year --lol

Napoleon referred to China as a sleeping dragon, saying that when China stirred the world will tremble and concluded - let China sleep!
As we all know, the dragon awoke from his slumber almost 25 years ago, he has momentum and the world is trembling, sometimes perhaps a little in fear of the possible economic and political consequences, but more often in anticipation of the opportunities presented by this no longer crippled giant.