Gun battles afer British helicopter shot down.

[Finder]

really the Ba-ath partys doctine which you talk of fell apart more then 30-40 years ago with Pan-Arbianism. Even the ba-athist parties in the different nations don't really like each other because they can't agree on much besides that there should be one large arab union of nations. Saddam wanted to be that centre but few others agreed.

Indeed if the USA cared about this doctrine why did they support Saddam back when this doctrine was stronger inside of Iraq then it was in the 90's and 2000's. Iraq was re-living the Ba-athist dreams back in the 80's alot more then it did in modern day. Hell the USA sent WMDs to Iraq to help them invade their nabours such as Iran. So if the USA cares about the ba-athist doctine then why did it support the doctrine back in the 80's?

 

[fuzzylogix]

Wow Daz- then we had better invade the US as many Christian groups there think they are superior to the other sects of Christianity, even to the point that they think they have a place in heaven and Im going to hell...and Bush himself had to go and remind people that he was on a Crusade in invading Iraq!

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: Gun battles afer Brit

dont shoot me.....thats just why the ba'ath party was created, and I'm just explaing the links between hitler and saddam....but America is a different kettle of fish all together, man you dont wanna open THAT one

 

[Jersay]

I agree with Finder, as British historians note, and leftist people note, it is still a form of colonialism still Iraq and Afghanistan mission. So I agree with Finder's point.

 

[Blackleaf]

British tactics reviewed as Basra erupts

· Up to five servicemen die in crashed helicopter
· Troops clash with angry Iraqis on streets

Richard Norton-Taylor and Muhammad Alubedy in Baghdad
Monday May 8, 2006
The Guardian


British tactics in southern Iraq were under review last night as military chiefs studied whether the dramatic loss of an army helicopter at the weekend signified a new vulnerability in the air, as well as a growing hostility from Iraqis on the ground.

Military investigators were combing the charred wreckage of a Lynx in central Basra, seeking to establish if it was the first British helicopter to be shot down since the invasion three years ago. The ministry of defence said a "maximum of five" British personnel were on board, but had yet to confirm a death toll.

The Lynx is the workhorse of the British army and as the roads of Iraq have become ever more treacherous the British military is using them routinely. The ministry of defence has yet to confirm what brought the Lynx down on Saturday, but if, as Iraqi police say, it was hit by fire from the ground, it would demonstrate a new level of vulnerability for British troops.

Yet just as alarming for the British deployment in southern Iraq were the scenes that followed. British forces have confronted angry Iraqi crowds before, but on this occasion the 300 men gathered at the crash site were jubilant at the loss of the helicopter and ready to inflict further damage. As soldiers from the British army's Quick Reaction Force got to the scene, they were confronted by stones thrown from the crowd. A minority, chanted support for the Mahdi army, the militia of the radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, and was armed with assault rifles, rocket-propelled grenades and petrol bombs, British defence sources said.

After initially using batons against the crowd, some of the soldiers opened fire. According to Iraqi police, four or five Iraqis were killed, including at least one child. British soldiers said they believed the Iraqis were killed by mortars fired by the Mahdi army, but British defence sources admitted later that the dead Iraqis might have been shot by British troops.

Neither the British nor the Iraqi dead have been named, though families of the British victims were informed yesterday.

Basra residents said the jubilation at British misfortune stemmed from the city's descent into misery - and warned that such confrontation was likely to recur. "The miserable situation in Basra and the south definitely had a role in the buildup of events," said Abu Ali, a Basra resident. "Electricity is absent for most of the day and gasoline is very expensive. Ordinary people can never get a job at the state security forces because it is entirely controlled by the militias. People think those who used to live abroad came and controlled everything while the common citizens still cannot get basic life needs."

Ibtihal Jasim, 51, said she was worried that the British, regarded in Basra as restrained in dealing with crowds, had opened fire, albeit with only a few shots. "What happened here has startled Basra. I'm afraid that these incidents will develop because the British responded. This is frightening," she told Reuters.

According to Major General John Cooper, commander of the British forces in Iraq, troops did not fire directly into the crowds, but fired live rounds at targets threatening them. A commander of the Mahdi Army, Jassan Khalaf, was reported yesterday as saying that his men brought down the helicopter and threatened more attacks. Some British officers have expressed serious concern about the increasing influence and control of the Mahdi Army on Basra's streets.

The mood was scarcely improved by reports of the day's carnage elsewhere in Iraq: a volley of car bombs in Baghdad and Kerbala that killed 30 and wounded 50. Late last night, another bomb exploded in a restaurant in Muqdadiya, 60 miles north-east of Baghdad, injuring dozens.

Calm was restored in Basra after about five hours and a night curfew imposed. British defence sources emphasised that order was restored with the help of Iraqi security forces, in contrast to an incident in Basra last September, when troops were set on fire as they escaped from burning Warrior armoured vehicles attacked by petrol bombs. "Just a matter of months ago it would have been unthinkable that the domestic forces of Iraq would have been able to make the contribution that they made yesterday," the new defence secretary, Des Browne, said.

Basra's governor, Muhammad al-Waeli, agreed yesterday to resume cooperation with the British, which he broke off four months ago, in an effort to defuse tension.

The Liberal Democrats described the deaths as "appalling" and called for a "clear exit strategy" for British forces from the area. The shadow defence minister, Liam Fox, said: "This incident raises a number of questions about the state of our airmen, which I am keen to pursue with the new secretary of state as soon as possible."

Lynx helicopters are equipped with radar and jamming devices designed to counter the threat from heavy artillery, not from small arms. Military commanders are urgently reviewing how to cut the risk of their being fired upon from well-armed insurgents on the ground.

Major Charles Heyman, defence analyst and editor of The Armed Forces of the United Kingdom publication, said the situation in Basra worsened when US forces began to confront Moqtada al-Sadr 18 months ago, announcing they would take him "dead or alive". He said: "The situation in Basra has not changed overnight. Something like today's crash, and then large numbers of soldiers on the streets, triggers an underlying resentment that our troops are basically occupying forces."

Under fire

Aside from roadside blasts and ambushes that have killed most of the 109 British troops who have died in Iraq, British forces have been drawn into several confrontations in southern Iraq during the occupation.

2003

June Six military policeman cornered in a police station and murdered by a mob in Majar al-Kabir, north of Basra.

August Three soldiers killed when a group of men in a truck opened fire on their vehicle in central Basra.

2004

March 14 British soldiers hurt in Amara, near Basra, when hundreds of Iraqis threw stones and petrol bombs in riot over job shortages.

May British troops involved in two days of fighting against militants loyal to the Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr near Basra.

August Two British soldiers killed in separate incidents involving gunfights with insurgents in Basra.

2005

September Iraqi mob torches British warrior armoured vehicle and fires mortars at British base after British tanks demolish a police station to free two undercover soldiers.

2006

May British Lynx military helicopter shot down in Basra, killing as many as five servicemen. Five Iraqis killed and dozens hurt in subsequent clash between troops and Iraqi crowds.


guardian.co.uk

 

[Blackleaf]

I agree with Finder, as British historians note, and leftist people note, it is still a form of colonialism still Iraq and Afghanistan mission. So I agree with Finder's point.

So getting rid of a dictator and bringing democracy to a country is a form of imperialism? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe Candians are jealous that, thanks to the British and Americans, Iraqis now have democratic elections - and Canadians played no part in bringing democracy to Iraq.

Still, if I was Prime Minister, I'll make sure Britain was imperialistic, all right. I'll invade as many countries as possible and steal their natural wealth.

 

[Blackleaf]

Well if these solduers didn't want to die they should not have joined the British military.

How did you know these soldiers didn't want to die?

There is no way you can know that as they are dead.

 

[Blackleaf]

If the UK didn't want their people to die

So, by your reckoning, Britain should NEVER go to war - because in EVERY war the British don't want their soldiers to die. In both World Wars, we didn't want our soldiers to die - but the vast majority of our people still supported the job that our soldiers were doing.

sovereign nation which had not threatend the UK.

I know you are Canadian and therefore don't understand the concept of going to war with a country that never threatedned your country, but sometimes countries do need to go to war with countries that posed no threat to them - it's what is technically known as "helping others."

Saddam's Iraq might have posed no threat to Britain, but it did pose a threat to the Iraqi people. So we have helped the Iraqi people by getting rid of Saddam, and now the Iraqis have a leader that THEY elected democratically.

In 1939, Hitler's Germany posed no threat to Britain (as Hitler wanted Britain to be on Germany's side and thought that we would be) but we declared war on Germany because they invaded Poland.

It's helping others by sacrificing your own people. Canadians should try it sometime. You'll feel proud of yourselves afterwards.

 

[I think not]

It's helping others by sacrificing your own people. Canadians should try it sometime. You'll feel proud of yourselves afterwards.

That is so disrespectful. Especially when Canadians have saved your sorry asses. What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: Gun battles afer Brit

I dont usually like to go against my countrymen, but.....ITN does have a point, it's like the great Winston Churchill said "if our country were to fall under the waves of facism, it will be to our dear brothers and sisters in the new world to continue the struggle", nah Canada and the USA thought long and hard for britain and the free world, I think thats a wee bit disrespectful Blackleaf

 

[mabudon]

RE: Gun battles afer Brit

thanks to the British and Americans, Iraqis now have democratic elections

Ahh yes, too bad they aren't allowed to actually convene the government... I really don't think it's jealousy that makes the whole misadventure look like blatant colonial imperialism- you can blame the dictionary for that

 

[Blackleaf]

It's helping others by sacrificing your own people. Canadians should try it sometime. You'll feel proud of yourselves afterwards.

That is so disrespectful. Especially when Canadians have saved your sorry asses. What the hell is wrong with you?

Saved our sorry arses when?

The only reason Canada fought in WWII was because it was nothing more than Britain's poodle. Britain's bitch.

Otherwise you would have spent the entire war spouting off about British imperialism when we invaded France, Italy and the Low Countries to drive away the NAZIS.

 

[Blackleaf]

Re: RE: Gun battles afer Brit

I dont usually like to go against my countrymen, but.....ITN does have a point, it's like the great Winston Churchill said "if our country were to fall under the waves of facism, it will be to our dear brothers and sisters in the new world to continue the struggle", nah Canada and the USA thought long and hard for britain and the free world, I think thats a wee bit disrespectful Blackleaf

Britain fought ALONE in 1940, when the rest of Europe had either been invaded or collaborated with the NAZIS and when the US was doing NOTHING whatsoever in the fight against Naziism.

The British had been fighting Naziism for 3 years before America suddenyl decided to stop appeasing Hitler and then joined the war in 1942.

 

[Blackleaf]

The 5 British soldiers who were killed have today been named.

One of them is the first female British soldier to have been killed in the war.
-----------------




By PETE BELL
Sun Online

Wing Commander John Coxen, Lieutenant Commander Darren Chapman, Flight Lieutenant Sarah Mulvihill, Lieutenant David Dobson and Marine Paul Collins

THE FIVE British service personnel who died when their helicopter crashed in the Iraqi city of Basra at the weekend were named by the Ministry of Defence today - they include the first serving British woman to die in Iraq.

Wing Commander John Coxen, Lieutenant Commander Darren Chapman, Flight Lieutenant Sarah Mulvihill, Lieutenant David Dobson, and Marine Paul Collins were the victims of the crash.

It is not yet known what brought the helicopter down.

The pilot, Wing Commander Coxon, was a 46-year-old from Liverpool.

An RAF spokesman said: "John's reputation across the Support Helicopter Force and the Royal Air Force was second to none.

"He was a unique individual - humble and courageous. The world will be a sadder place without him."

Lieutenant Commander Darren Chapman, of the Royal Navy, was a 40-year-old married father of three.

A Marines spokesman said: "Darren was a consummate professional and was highly regarded by all of his Squadron personnel and also within the broader helicopter community.

"A larger than life character, he had a tremendous ability to make people laugh and could communicate easily with those in his charge, regardless of rank."

"Our thoughts are with his wife Liz and his beloved children, Chloe, Ben and Georgina."

His family issued the following statement: "We are deeply shocked and devastated at the untimely and tragic loss of Darren. He was a fantastic father, husband, son and friend who was deeply committed to family life; always there for those who needed him, nothing was ever too much trouble."

Flight Lieutenant Sarah Mulvihill was a 32-year-old Flight Operations Officer at Royal Air Force Benson. She was born in Canterbury.

An RAF Benson spokesman said: "Sarah was one of the RAF's finest: courageous, upbeat, and unselfish. She was a dedicated officer who will be missed by all."

Lieutenant David Dobson was a single, 27-year-old known as Dobbo.

A Marines spokesman said: "Although only with the Commando Helicopter force for a short period of time, David had made a most impressive start in 847 NAS.

"Extremely well respected, he approached all his duties with tremendous levels of enthusiasm, displaying a positive attitude and ready cheerfulness."

Marine Paul Collins was a 21-year-old Air Door Gunner. He was single and based at Royal Naval Air Station Yeovilton.

His parents said: "Paul was a wonderful young man and so full of potential and Zest for life. He was physically and mentally strong, though this was tempered by an intelligent, thoughtful and caring nature."

thesun.co.uk

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Gun battles afer Brit

dont shoot me.....thats just why the ba'ath party was created, and I'm just explaing the links between hitler and saddam....but America is a different kettle of fish all together, man you dont wanna open THAT one

Open it! Open it!

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: Gun battles afer Brit

ITN, you know what I think of Georgie boy and his merry band of traitorous merchant appeasing not-so-wisemen

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Gun battles afer Brit

dont shoot me.....thats just why the ba'ath party was created, and I'm just explaing the links between hitler and saddam....but America is a different kettle of fish all together, man you dont wanna open THAT one

Open it! Open it!

you mean like how the Ba'athist came to power?

1. What role did the CIA and other U.S. agencies play in the Baath Party's rise to power?

Scholars and journalists have widely reported that the CIA helped the right-wing, anti-communist Baath Party come to power in a Feb. 8, 1963 coup, including by providing it with lists of suspected communists, progressives and nationalists via a clandestine radio station in Kuwait. Immediately after the coup, the Baath executed some 3,000 to 5,000 people, many of whom were on the CIA's lists. In those days, Saddam was a low-level but hardcore cadre who attempted to assassinate Gen. Abdul Karim Qasim, the leader of the 1958 revolution that overthrew the pro-Western monarchy.

At the time, France's L'Express stated outright, "The Iraqi coup was inspired by the CIA." London's Guardian reported some years later that declassified British cabinet papers "disclose that the coup had been backed by the British and the CIA."

The new government was an unstable coalition, so in 1967, after a series of military coups, the Johnson administration dispatched former Treasury Secretary Robert Anderson to Baghdad to assist the Baath. On July 30, 1968, the Baath faction, led by acting President Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr, with Saddam a close ally, ousted the non-Baath elements from the government. Iraq's Deputy Chief of Army Intelligence Col. Abdel Razaq Al Nayyef later confirmed in his memoirs, "for the 1968 coup you must look to Washington."

now now. can't talk about that. some of the more sensitive souls around here would consider it to be unAmerican.

 

[Blackleaf]

The Times May 09, 2006

'She was one of the RAF's finest: courageous, upbeat and unselfish'
By Michael Evans, Defence Editor

Commander pays tribute to first British woman soldier to die in combat in Iraq


THE first British woman to be killed in the line of duty in Iraq was named yesterday as a 32-year-old flight lieutenant who died when a rocket-propelled grenade hit her helicopter in Iraq at the weekend.

Flight Lieutenant Sarah Mulvihill, who joined the RAF in 1997, would normally have been deskbound, helping to plan missions, providing support for helicopter crews and co-ordinating flights.

But she was in the helicopter to brief Wing Commander John Coxen, 46, who was newly arrived in Basra to take over as commander of the Joint Helicopter Command. Wing Commander Coxen was also killed.

Military sources thought that the helicopter may have been landing on one of the helipads in central Basra when it was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade.

Flight Lieutenant Mulvihill is the first servicewoman to die from hostile fire in any British military operation since the 1980s. when an undercover agent is believed to have died in Northern Ireland.

The killing of Flight Lieutenant Mulvihill and the four others on board the Lynx helicopter brought the total number of British fatalities in Iraq to 109.

Her husband, Lee, a sergeant in the RAF and an air traffic controller based at the air traffic control centre at West Drayton, said: “Sarah was my best friend and my most beloved wife. Her loss has greatly affected and impacted on more people than anyone can comprehend.”

Her parents, Terry and Sue Poole, who live in Herne Bay, said they did not wish to speak in public about their “devastating” loss. They were on holiday in Spain when the news broke. They flew back and went to stay with their son, Jason, who lives in Dover, according to neighbours.

One neighbour said: “Sarah was in the cadets when she was younger and this was all she ever wanted to do.”

The Ministry of Defence said that the fatal flight was a “familiarisation” trip to help the wing commander to understand the layout of the Basra area.

Flight Lieutenant Mulvihill was the ideal officer to give him the guided tour. She had served as a flight operations officer in Basra for three months and knew the risks, the dangers, the lessons and the tactics learnt by the helicopter pilots when flying low over the city.

It was her second tour of duty in Iraq in three years.

The other three killed when the Lynx Mark 7 was shot down were identified yesterday as the pilot, Lieutenant- Commander Darren Chapman, 40, commanding officer of 847 Naval Air Squadron; the co- pilot, Captain David Dobson, 27, a member of the Army Air Corps who was attached to 847 Squadron and Marine Paul Collins, 21, an air door gunner.

Friends of Flight Lieutenant Mulvihill, who knew her as Sarah-Jayne, described her as “sociable, bubbly and always the life and soul of the party”.

She was born in Canterbury and joined the RAF as an airwoman in May 1997 but was quickly spotted as a potential officer. She was selected for initial officer training in October 2001 and was commissioned into the air traffic control branch. Two years later she was posted to RAF Shawbury, in Shropshire, where she was trained as a flight operations officer, the role she was fulfilling in Basra.

She was deployed to Iraq for the first time in 2003 when based at RAF Northolt, and in May last year was posted to RAF Benson as a flight operations officer. Group Captain Duncan Welham, station commander at RAF Benson, said: “She was one of the RAF’s finest: courageous, upbeat and unselfish.”

The family of Lieutenant-Commander Chapman, who was married with three children, said in a statement that they were “deeply shocked and devastated”.

The parents of Marine Collins, who was single and joined the Royal Marines in 2003, said that he was “a wonderful young man” who had fought his way back to fitness after a motorcycle accident.

British troops who opened fire at demonstrators after the downing of the helicopter were defended yesterday by Des Browne, the new Defence Secretary.

He told the Commons that they had come under attack from blast bombs, rocketpropelled grenades and mortars. He said it was “entirely right” that they had defended themselves.

Mr Browne said that five Iraqis “may have died” and about twenty-eight had been injured. He could not confirm that two children had been killed. He also said that seven British soldiers had been injured, none seriously.

He said that the incident was isolated and was brought under control by the Iraqi security forces within a few hours.

He had sent condolences to the families of the five military personnel killed and said that a detailed investigation had begun by the Royal Military Police and a board of inquiry had been set up.

thetimesonline.co.uk