Greatest Empire Ever

John Welch

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If people happen to have strong stable dictatorships, isn't it being imperial to force an electoral system on them? The "right stuff" was picked by US in Iraq, to give oil deals to US, and pressure regional countries to go electoral. It doesn't feel imperial because its just normal custom for US people. Like France becoming like "normal" Rome- it's for their own good.
John
 

Blackleaf

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The British Empire - Why it was so good?


Map of the British Empire, 1905, twenty years before it reached its greatest height.



The British Empire is often attacked by liberals and historical revisionists. Here, they say, was an organised system of oppression that spanned the globe, depriving native peoples of their rights and organising mass slavery, drug use and raping the lands and cultures it conquered.

In their extremism, these people forget a few things - the Empire was not a force of evil for those it conquered, it was a force of good. The Pax Britannica made the 19th century comparitively peaceful and safe compared to the centuries that preceded it, and it was possible to travel the globe and visit all continents using just one currency, speaking one language and all without worry of molestation. Here I shall analyse just why the Empire was so good for the people it conquered and what it did for the world.



Let me make clear some first principles.
  • The wealth of a nation depends not on its physical resources, but upon the honesty and industriousness of its people. This is why Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest nations of the world per capita, and why mainland China is not - same people in each, but Hong Kong has a population tempered and improved by fair laws and centuries of Anglo Saxon tradition. This makes their culture quite different, and is why, despite the total lack of resources, they are so incredibally wealthy.
  • Any country which is superior to another in terms of the culture being fair and honest must surely become wealthier and more powerful than all neighbours, nomatter the resources available. A prime example of this might be ancient Athens, which despite its tiny size (a population of some 50,000 or so) managed to defeat, single handedly, the entire Persian Empire. This was due to Athens being a nation of moral probity and fairness.
  • Any nation which is wealthy therefore has moral probity. This is fairly trivial from my above points.
  • Any nation which has wealth has a duty to conquer countries less wealthy than it. This may seem controversial, but I think it follows from my previous points fairly well. This wealthier country will obviously have more moral probity and fairness - all the mechanisms of the market defined by Adam Smith depend upon a society that is, at its heart, fair. If someone is more intelligent and has higher moral values than a degenerate in the street, we recognise that that person has a duty to help the degenerate where he can. The same applies to nation states.
Britain became the world's foremost power in the 18th century. Closely rivalled by degenerate France for a time, before extinguishing its historical rival towards the end of the century in the Seven Years War, this was the century when Britain started to really make something of its Empire. In the 19th Century it grew almost by accident - by this time the British were so superior that individual mercenaries, like Rajah Brooke, could take over entire nations.

Although the British Empire expanded to take over one third of the globe physically, it also had numerous satellite states and spheres of interest. All of South and Central America did not need to be conquered physically, because they were already controlled utterly and completely economically.

Britain took its obligations seriously however. It did not try to extinguish the cultures of other nations (like the Spanish Empire did centuries before), but rather to bring them alive in a framework of fairness. The only cultural artifacts it imposed were simple principles of morals. Where native religions were opposed to even simple moral behaviour, they would introduce Christianity in order to right the wrongs of paganism and allow these peoples to flower.

The fact that Britain was not interested in changing the cultures and religions of the peoples it conquered can be seen most clearly in India. The British East India company, before the mutiny, was the ruler of India. By 1850 the wealth of the company and its turnover was greater than that of the whole of Britain - a great economic success.

However, companies are not interested in changing cultures, only in making money. But when the mutiny started (sparked by a false rumour among the ignorant sepoys of cartridges being greased with pig fat), it was clear that it wasn't altering the culture of India enough and so the government disbanded it and India at last basked in the light of modern post-Enlightenment thought.

Britain in the 19th century can be considered the educator of the world - not a corner or a people did not benefit from the glow of western civilisation and Anglo Saxon culture. Of course, Britain did not intend to impose actual culture, just impose a moral framework such that decent commerce could occur. Primitive regions of the world, such as Ireland and Sierra Leone, have long been thankful for this.

By the 20th century, some nations had taken this lesson to heart so much that they began to take over Britain in economic performance and become teachers themselves - America and Japan are good examples of this. So it was that Britain selflessly undid its own status.

But just imagine for a moment what would have happened had Britain not been so selfless with its knowledge. If Britain had adopted a more protectionist attitude, the whole world would have suffered and we would still be in the dark ages because the light of Britain's advance into the Industrial Revolution and the modern world would not have spread beyond the shores of the Mother Country.

In fact, lets take this to an extreme degree - suppose financially and militarily superior nations and people did not seek to impose themselves on their neighbours. By now Europe would have a population in the billions, and would doubtless have collapsed utterly - it is only by exporting the human surplus and importing resources and agriproducts (like the potato) that Europe has been able to stay alive.

The nub is that those who criticise the Empire, a natural occurance, do not have any decent explanations of how world history was supposed to proceed.

The simple fact is that the British Empire, like all Empires before it, did a lot more good than it did harm. Just like the Roman Empire in ancient times, it spread plumbing, roads, trade, and education.

The Roman Empire is now a rosy memory, and generally people recognise that it did much good for Europe - but people will not admit the same for the British Empire regarding what it did for the world.

Perhaps this is because we are still close to the British Empire in time, and it haunts us. I have no doubt that one day, the worth and achievements of Empire will be properly recognised. Whether you are in the USA, Australia, India, South Africa, Canada or Egypt, you can thank the existence of your nation and your standard of living on the British Empire.

http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.7.13.133240.148.html
 
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John Welch

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By jingo, the skinhead is right Right, right? Jamaica is rich from English morality. Hong Kong is more wealthy than Shanghai because of the Church of England, not because of Mao Tse Tung's export policy. Ireland glows with emotion at the word "English". Australian Aboriginals stare with wonder at their experience. Oil nations must invade and follow the ideals of England.
May God save them?
John
 

Zzarchov

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Hong Kong is actually pretty wealthy because of British policy, if it were not british, it would just have been another piece of destitute China.

I think one critical missing flaw in all critiques of any empire and how it treated conquered peoples is : How would those people have lived if they had not been conquered?

Seeing as there were few to no democratic republics conquered, all colonies would have been run by a local king or other monarch.

So who's grinding bootheels would have been better on the populace? The foriegn ruler or the local?

Saying "But thats THEIR king" is a little daft, "their king" only became and continued to be their king by brute force and military occupation, as well as execution of dissidents (much like the colonizer). Even "local" monarchs tend to view themselves as a seperate people from those they ruled (ie, the Inca royals ruled the Quecha commoners, The Russian Czar spoke french not russian). That does not make colonization a good thing, it means its not always a bad thing.

You have to compare who was worse. In the case of the people subjegated by the Aztecs, they were actually by and large better off under the spanish, not because the Spanish were good, but because the Aztecs were very, very bad to those they conquered. Compare that to the Six Nations Confederacy and the opposite is true.
 

John Welch

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Boot-heels? Which people weeping tears of gratitude begged white-master to stay? Who booted him out?
chimera
 

Blackleaf

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Australian Aboriginals stare with wonder at their experience.
John

Well, if the British never discovered Australia and no-one populated it, it would consist solely of the Aboriginals. So how would Australia then have become a rich, Western World society?

The same is also true of canada and the US. If the Europeans never populated those two antions you'd both still be Third World nations consisting entirely of just Native Indians and Eskimos.
 

EagleSmack

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Hey Blackleaf before I get REALLY into this the only thing that the British Navy has done lately is surrender without a shot and sing like canaries and make statements harmful to their country and allies.
 

EagleSmack

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"Read a book. The British had Belgians and Dutch at Waterloo and were still on the verge of getting whipped until Blucher and the Prussians showed up."
At sunset, the French were saying "Le Guard recuse", because Napoleon's elite Imperial Guard silently retired from the lost battle. After that at last twilight, the Prussians' advance scouts began dribbling in and helped to chase the retreating French through the night.
George III gave democracy to George W and George W is taking it away from Democrats. USA loses.

I have read quite a bit on Waterloo and you saying that the French were whipped before the Prussians arrived is a silly. I've read "A Near Run Thing", "The Waterloo Campaign", and "Wellington at Waterloo".

Napoleon was fully engaged on his right with the Prussians before he sent in the Old Guard. When the Prussians drove the French skirmishes out of the town Napoleon sent the Young Guard to hold off the Prussians while he attempted to break the British and Allied line. When he saw that the right was giving in slowly he sent the Old Guard in. Now to say that the Old Guard or Imperial Guard silently retired from battle takes away from the courage of the the British Line Infantry. The Old Guard was crushed by lines and lines of British muskets and artillery.

Perhaps it is you that needs to read a book don't you think?
 

EagleSmack

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During the War of Independence the Americans were only fighting a much smaller British force than what it would have been if the British weren't, at the same time, also battling Napoleon in Europe to prevent the little man from invading Britain.

If we didn't have to worry about that irritant then there would have been vastly more men and resources for the British in North America - and the US would have surely lost.

Not only that, but even fighting an army that was also preoccupied with the more important task of fighting Napoleon in Europe the Americans only won through having the help of the French - and again, if you didn't have French help, you'd have surely lost. And it must be embarassing for the Americans to look back on their history knowing that they needed the FRENCH, of all people, to help them to win a war!

But the Britih didn't despair at the loss of their MINOR and unimportant colonies in North America - remember, the British Empire was at its greatest extent, its zenith, in 1921, around 150 years after the US declared its independence.

The loss of the American colonies was nothing much, really.

You'd also find, if you bothered to read the TRUE history of the US War of Independence rather than the Americo-centric version of the events that the British, despite also having to fight Napoleon to fend off the threat of invasion, won the majority of the battles.

War of Independence 1775-1783
Napoleon 1769-1821

So let's do the math shall we? Napoleon was 6 when the American Revolution started. Boy you folks really had problems if you had a 6 year old French boy keeping the British Army in Europe. Napoleon had just reached puberty when the Lobsterbacks were boarding ships color furled. He must have been really scary at 14 then! :lol:

I have read all sorts of books on the American Revolution. My favorite being "Iron Tears" written by an Englishman from the point of view of the English. Some, although very little, of what you say is true. Britain did have to keep a lot of forces at home because of France. However the British only controlled the ground where their boots were in the colonies. British Law was only enforced while the British were in that certain part of the country. As soon as the British left a town, city, or region... so did British Rule. That was known throughout England and was debated that it was impossible to subjagate the colonies even with a larger army. On the other hand as long as the Rebels could maintain a standing army in the field the war would go on. Yes the British won a few battles but they lost quite a few as well. Even the ones that they won were costly. After the Battle of Bunker Hill the General (Gage I think said)


"If we win any more battles like these... we'll lose the war."


The loss of the colonies wasn't too much! Then why did they fight for 8 years?


Perhaps it is you that needs to be objective and read a bit more.
 

Zzarchov

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Boot-heels? Which people weeping tears of gratitude begged white-master to stay? Who booted him out?
chimera

Take away the word "white" and you'll find a more accurate depiction. Nobody has ever begged any master to stay.

You honestly think anyone cares if your king was white and considered himself above you through virture of blood, OR, if the king had the same skin tone as you but considered himself above you through virtue of blood?

News flash, no one enjoys being oppressed, even by people of the same skin tone or culture.

How did the Spanish take over the Aztecs? The Tlaxaca rebelled against the Aztecs and provided the troops needed.

Its a false view of history to think everyone was happy and loved being oppressed by local rulers before european rulers came to opress them instead. Europeans often arrived at the scene of civil wars as the Native population was busy trying to overthrow its local despots.

So while colonization rarely made the place better, it also rarely made it worse.

So you really do need to look at whose bootheels were harder, the local despot or the foreign despot.
 

I think not

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Well, if the British never discovered Australia and no-one populated it, it would consist solely of the Aboriginals. So how would Australia then have become a rich, Western World society?

The same is also true of canada and the US. If the Europeans never populated those two antions you'd both still be Third World nations consisting entirely of just Native Indians and Eskimos.

Seek help soon.
 

Zzarchov

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I'd have to agree.

1.) If Europeans didn't make contact, someone else would have. China supposedly already landed on Australia when Zeng Hi was going about in the early 1400's, seeing as he made as to the straights of Madagascar on the other side, its entirely believable.

The Mandike Empire (Subsaharan africa) tried to send two rather large fleets to find the America's, didn't take..but sooner or later they would have tried again, this was in the 1300's when they eclisped Europe.

2.) Even if they didn't, in the Case of the America's its entirely plausible at some point the contact would have been made the other way. The Inca were an expansionist bronze age society, well regimented, they also had a history in the region of naval exodus (thats how the easter Islands got populated), sooner or later they would have made contact with Polynesia and thus the east (or west if that is still colonized).

3.) Lots of nations went from backwards and medieval to first world nations without colonization, A Japan effect is highly possible.
 
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EagleSmack

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Right on the money Zzarchov. Revisionist like to portray the culture of the Aztecs, Mayans, and the Native Americans as a Utopian society... each one before the Europeans came but that is so far from the truth. Aztecs, Mayans, and Native American tribes were made of men and women and they were no less forcefull or cruel to each other before Europeans arrived. They conquered, slaughtered, stole and did everything that has been stuck to the European White Male if you will.

The Iroquois Nation in North America absorbed hundreds of tribes and destroyed their cultures long before the Europeans arrived. They also contributed to the extinction of North American Mammals as the decline of these creatures coincides with the earliest crossing of Asians over the Bearing Straight. They were people too and were not immune from greed or violence.
 

EagleSmack

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Easter Island is a prime example of native man completely voiding a place of it's natural resources making the island uninhabitable to this day save for the tourism. No Europeans involved in that human catastrophe.
 

John Welch

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Jews in Auschwitz were fed, and Australian Aboriginals receive welfare payments and some are middle-class. In general, both situations are similar with devastated families.
German and Japanese industrial policies were superior to other countries in 1930's, and that is why Britain and Australia had to submit to the Reich and the Asia Co-Prosperity rule by Japan. It was British stupidity that refused those benefits.
John
 

American Man

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The American empire by a long shot

What country or empire you can think of that has complete control and influence in your everyday lives and around the world? America. We have influenced and exerted our control for years and we have the military might which leaves us the only superpower existing. If you wish to point out this or that dont bother, really ask yourself and in your heart of hearts you know this to be a truth, that all men are created equal but not countries or empires. America has the most deadly and scariest weapons on the earth and we havent even seen a fraction of what is in the arsenal. Thats the reason why everyone distrust america because we preach democracy and capitalism and were the best at what we do it is called keeping everyone else in line. The world should have destroyed itself 10 times by now with its weapons, why not? because we can manipulate how big a war is and contain or control it. Scares me just thinking about it.
 

Pangloss

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What country or empire you can think of that has complete control and influence in your everyday lives and around the world? America. We have influenced and exerted our control for years and we have the military might which leaves us the only superpower existing. If you wish to point out this or that dont bother, really ask yourself and in your heart of hearts you know this to be a truth, that all men are created equal but not countries or empires. America has the most deadly and scariest weapons on the earth and we havent even seen a fraction of what is in the arsenal. Thats the reason why everyone distrust america because we preach democracy and capitalism and were the best at what we do it is called keeping everyone else in line. The world should have destroyed itself 10 times by now with its weapons, why not? because we can manipulate how big a war is and contain or control it. Scares me just thinking about it.

The above is the best argument for gun laws* I've read in a long time.

Pangloss

*and more literacy training. . .
 

talloola

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What country or empire you can think of that has complete control and influence in your everyday lives and around the world? America. We have influenced and exerted our control for years and we have the military might which leaves us the only superpower existing. If you wish to point out this or that dont bother, really ask yourself and in your heart of hearts you know this to be a truth, that all men are created equal but not countries or empires. America has the most deadly and scariest weapons on the earth and we havent even seen a fraction of what is in the arsenal. Thats the reason why everyone distrust america because we preach democracy and capitalism and were the best at what we do it is called keeping everyone else in line. The world should have destroyed itself 10 times by now with its weapons, why not? because we can manipulate how big a war is and contain or control it. Scares me just thinking about it.

Yes, you've shown the world many things, MOSTLY how 'not' to behave, how to 'not' have any class,
how 'not' to have friends, how 'not' to be diplomatic, how 'not' to run a war, how 'not' to lead the world, how 'not' to find weapons of mass destruction, how 'not' to vote for a president, etc. etc.
 

Gaz Lik

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After reading a few articles on histories of various empires, I tried to google what is considered the greatest empire of all times. Found myself on a couple of history site forums which were too serious to dig in with all the literatures but yours,.... yours... simply amusing ... which i thus intend to share a bit though.

I think the greatest empire belongs to Galatic Empire. yeah,... you got it,... Star Wars is the greatest empire.....

=) cheers ain't it... but ficticious sigh.... so well....

The future greatest empire belongs to Israel where the whole world will stand against it. As for the past empires that have stood and fallen... how does one really define greatness? You mentioned briefly about a year ago.. but seriously,... is blood count led by someone who was the absolute warrior considered great, or is it the empire that left the greatest impact for us to be considered divine, or yet the one that left the most history pages, even or the one that shook cultures and defined their ways.

And thus,... by blood count status i shall vote Rambo as the greatest warrior. Oh wait,.. Alice of Resident Evil against umbrella corp should be the one...

Hahahaha,... seriously i think none empires could be defined as greatest anymore. They were just a fad that passed with constant revovling. And all empires had their own greatness of their time.
 

jimshort19

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Jersay, "Greatness; How long it lasted, what kind of mark it left on the world, how big it was, what kind of achievements did it complete."

I agree with 'what kind of acheivements', even how big, but not how long. To put the United States of America up against Egypt would be ludicrous. What kind of acheivements? Contest over, U.S. wins. But how do we adjust for time? Is it fair to compare the modern athlete to the old, say to let the modern marksman shoot it out at 100 yards against a naked Greek with a javelin?

The US collection of states was not assembled like other empires. This was a remarkable event, founded upon the high English civilisation that bred it. Some would not call it an empire, others would.

What is an empire?

The English empire, including Canada, USA, Australia, Great Britain, Bermuda, and others, takes the cake if you'll allow the definition, because these empires are related, British and American, and in cultural terms are one and the same.