God's Relational Presence

Dexter Sinister

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My sources identify Psalm 90 as the only one thought to be written by Moses. Not that it really matters, the authorship of most of them can't be definitively established anyway. Most are traditionally attributed to David, possibly because they were clearly meant to be sung or chanted and David was reportedly a skilled musician. All very interesting, and fertile ground for speculation, but it doesn't address the obvious absurdity of the claim in the bits you cited from Psalm 91. I've read interpretations of it that suggest it means nothing bad will happen to you except what god chooses to inflict on you, which I don't think is an improvement. I think I'd vote with French Patriot here, much of Christian dogma seems to me to be an invitation to slavery, what Christopher Hitchens labelled the "celestial dictatorship." No thanks.
 
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Motar

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My sources identify Psalm 90 as the only one thought to be written by Moses. Not that it really matters, the authorship of most of them can't be definitively established anyway. Most are traditionally attributed to David, possibly because they were clearly meant to be sung or chanted and David was reportedly a skilled musician. All very interesting, and fertile ground for speculation, but it doesn't address the obvious absurdity of the claim in the bits you cited from Psalm 91. I've read interpretations of it that suggest it means nothing bad will happen to you except what god chooses to inflict on you, which I don't think is an improvement. I think I'd vote with French Patriot here, much of Christian dogma seems to me to be an invitation to slavery, what Christopher Hitchens labelled the "celestial dictatorship." No thanks.
It is good of you to share your perspective and sources, DS. Your post seems to indicate that you are here participating in this discussion in order to cast your vote against Christian dogma. I am here to share Christ.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Your post seems to indicate that you are here participating in this discussion in order to cast your vote against Christian dogma.
Didn't think we were voting on it, I just used that as a convenient metaphor for indicating broad agreement with an argument put forward by another poster.
 

Motar

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“Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare“ (Isaiah 55:1-2, NIV).

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).

The invitation of God is extended to all who are thirsty, weary and burdened. The promise of God is satisfaction and rest. Our benefactor is Christ.
 

Dexter Sinister

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The promise of God is satisfaction and rest.
We buried a sister-in-law on Thursday. She was as earnest and committed a Christian believer as I've ever known, dead at 63 after a miserable four months of radiation and chemo failed to arrest her pancreatic cancer. God's promises are worth nothing.
 

Motar

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We buried a sister-in-law on Thursday. She was as earnest and committed a Christian believer as I've ever known, dead at 63 after a miserable four months of radiation and chemo failed to arrest her pancreatic cancer. God's promises are worth nothing.
My heart is heavy with grief for you, my Friend.
 

Motar

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“Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words“ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NIV).

The relational presence of God informs, encourages and instills perpetual hope in those who know and trust in Christ.
 

French Patriot

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Sep 17, 2012
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”If you say, ‘The LORD is my refuge’, and you make the Most High your dwelling, no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. ‘Because he loves me,‘ says the Lord, ‘I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.” (Psalm 91:9-15, NIV).

Have a blessed day, DL.
You speak of needing salvation.

What sin earned you condemnation and hell?

Regards
DL
 

French Patriot

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“Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words“ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NIV).

The relational presence of God informs, encourages and instills perpetual hope in those who know and trust in Christ.
Are you ready to help him destroy and send to hell most of those around you whom you love?

Are you ready to help Jesus usher in Armageddon and more genocide?

Are you ready to hate your gay children and reduce the value of your wife?

Regards
DL
 

Motar

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You speak of needing salvation.

What sin earned you condemnation and hell?

Regards
DL
Sin is personal separation from God, resulting in corruption in our character and conduct. Salvation is reconciliation to and restoration of God’s presence and spiritual nature (Galatians 5:22-23) to and in us. The choice is ours.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:15, NIV).

God is relationally present today by His Spirit, reconciling and restoring ”whosoever will”.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Sin is personal separation from God,
No, that's a consequence of sin, not a sin in itself, and since Adam and Eve's original disobedience we're all supposedly tarred with that brush, regardless of anything else we might do in this life, the greatest of good works will not save us. I think that's an evil idea.

Here's what it looks like to me: There was a magic tree whose fruit was forbidden, there was a talking serpent who duped a gullible woman into eating the fruit, then she duped her equally gullible partner (though she paid much the greater price for it), and as a result we are all cursed with original sin, which I think we could fairly describe as an evil spell on our souls. Then along comes a guy who was executed as a scapegoat, the fall guy, for everything we've ever done and ever will do wrong, but he gets reanimated by a supernatural force and promises eternal life and removal of the spell if we accept him as lord and master, believe the right things, and follow the proper rituals.

That is the core claim of Christianity, stripped of its mysticism and specious niceties, and it sounds like a fairytale to me, at best. At worst I think it's a frightening and wicked thing to tell people, especially children, that they are doomed for all time unless they accept this stuff. I know a lot of Christians, some of them pretty serious about it, and I respect them as people for the most part, they're generally good and decent folks, but that belief system I think is just false, it flies in the face of everything I understand about the way reality actually is. I know of no good evidence that suggests any of it's true and plenty that strongly suggests it's not.

The burden of evidence and proof is on the people making the claims, such as you. All you've done so far, in any of your threads, is make assertions without evidence, mostly just with biblical citations, and as Christopher Hitchens tartly observed, what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Or to cite another of my favourite philosophers, George Carlin, religion is the all time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims. And really, it's worse than that. If this deity has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, he knew what was going to happen in the Garden, that his creations were flawed and would disobey, but rather than creating us as better creatures more to his liking we are commanded to heal ourselves or be condemned for all time, and he hides it behind an illusion of free will: we are free to choose, but if we make the wrong choice, it's an eternity of conscious torment in fire for us. That's a choice? Nope, that's bullshit.
 
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Motar

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I know a lot of Christians, some of them pretty serious about it, and I respect them as people for the most part, they're generally good and decent folks, but that belief system I think is just false, it flies in the face of everything I understand about the way reality actually is. I know of no good evidence that suggests any of it's true and plenty that strongly suggests it's not.
Good evidence of spiritual regeneration will be spiritual, DS. The “good and decent” you observe in the folks you identify as Christians is the evidence.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Good evidence of spiritual regeneration will be spiritual, DS. The “good and decent” you observe in the folks you identify as Christians is the evidence.
I'm not seeking evidence of spiritual regeneration, that's a meaningless phrase to me. I want to know what claims have supporting evidence sufficient to justify accepting them as at least provisionally true. Christian people being good and decent is not evidence that there's any truth or merit to Christian belief. I also know good and decent people who are not Christian, and I count myself in that number, and I also know Christians I'd cross the street to avoid.
 

DaSleeper

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I have no use for people proselytizing on the internet.....

Like I told a Jehovah witness who knocked on my door.......... What I believe in is a personal thing between me and whoever or whatever I believe in !
 

Dexter Sinister

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I know, DS. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14).
Yeah I know, the Bible tells you everything you need to know about me. I suppose that must mean I'm a natural man, whatever that could be, though I wouldn't say it was foolishness, it's just false. Spiritual evidence being discernible only spiritually is one of those meaningless mystical explanations, it's not evidence at all in any meaningful sense because it can't be shared, nobody can point at it and say, "There it is." I can have no direct knowledge of anyone's spiritual experience, I can have only their report on it, I can't see it or feel it myself and neither can anybody else, it's of no value in trying to explain anything to anyone else.
See what I mean Dexter?
Yup. :)
 

Motar

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Thank you for the blessing of your thoughts and responses. This has been a profitable discussion for me. Be blessed. 🙂
 

French Patriot

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Sin is personal separation from God, resulting in corruption in our character and conduct. Salvation is reconciliation to and restoration of God’s presence and spiritual nature (Galatians 5:22-23) to and in us. The choice is ours.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:15, NIV).

God is relationally present today by His Spirit, reconciling and restoring ”whosoever will”.

Given that you did not specify your sin, you confirm that you were unjustly condemned.

Thanks for the honesty.

It is quite rare in Christians.

Regards
DL
 

French Patriot

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I'm not seeking evidence of spiritual regeneration, that's a meaningless phrase to me. I want to know what claims have supporting evidence sufficient to justify accepting them as at least provisionally true. Christian people being good and decent is not evidence that there's any truth or merit to Christian belief. I also know good and decent people who are not Christian, and I count myself in that number, and I also know Christians I'd cross the street to avoid.
Even if all accepted as true, and Yahweh were somehow proven to be real, who but the most depraved of us would join him and St. Hitler in heaven?

Or would that be hell????

Regards
DL