Gay advocates fight churches' charity status

[Cathou]

geez, you guys have been busy here tonight :wink:

ok, on what Cosmo said, marriage is a legal contract. that's it. the thing you do at the church is a ceremony, it's two separate thing. When i was young, one of my aunt get married at a courthouse in front of a judge. tell me where is God in that ?

Gordon you said that if C-38 pass, people could get emotionnal. but it's already legal in 7 or 8 juridictions now. and nobody got emotionnal. never seen anyone beating because of that. Cosmo is married, did she got beat to death because of that ? i get married this year, and i dont fear because of that either...

Blue, like i've said elsewhere, it's a minority who form a lobby and try to do that for a reason of their own. the guy who lobby for that is not mandatate, elected, or nominate by some secret gay council... honestly i dont know anybody that want to force church to marry gays...

 

[bluealberta]

geez, you guys have been busy here tonight :wink:

ok, on what Cosmo said, marriage is a legal contract. that's it. the thing you do at the church is a ceremony, it's two separate thing. When i was young, one of my aunt get married at a courthouse in front of a judge. tell me where is God in that ?

Gordon you said that if C-38 pass, people could get emotionnal. but it's already legal in 7 or 8 juridictions now. and nobody got emotionnal. never seen anyone beating because of that. Cosmo is married, did she got beat to death because of that ? i get married this year, and i dont fear because of that either...

Blue, like i've said elsewhere, it's a minority who form a lobby and try to do that for a reason of their own. the guy who lobby for that is not mandatate, elected, or nominate by some secret gay council... honestly i dont know anybody that want to force church to marry gays...

Cat, I think you are right. While I freely admit I do not know many gays, the ones I do know and discuss this, wish this issue would really just go away, for the most part. That was the basis of my comments, because they are the ones saying that if they want to get married in a church, they will to go a church that will perform the ceremony.

Seems to me that there is a bunch of non-gays really pushing this issue, and it makes me wonder why. To prove that they are socially liberal, or is there some other motive?

 

[Cathou]

Cat, I think you are right. While I freely admit I do not know many gays, the ones I do know and discuss this, wish this issue would really just go away, for the most part. That was the basis of my comments, because they are the ones saying that if they want to get married in a church, they will to go a church that will perform the ceremony.

Seems to me that there is a bunch of non-gays really pushing this issue, and it makes me wonder why. To prove that they are socially liberal, or is there some other motive?

who knows ? maybe it's an attack against church, and they use that motive ? Even if i still identify myself to catholic (hey you cant get rid of 16 years of religious beliefs in a flash) it doesnt matter to me to get married somewhere else than a church. what's important is what i will feel on that instant. if in my mind i want god to bless this moment, i just have to feel so, and i dont need the assistance of a guy that was nominated by a bunch of other guys who follow another guy that think that he maybe know what god want by reading and interpreting a nearly 2000 year old book that been translated and hand copied for 1000 years by monks half blinded by their work...

 

[bluealberta]

Cat, I think you are right. While I freely admit I do not know many gays, the ones I do know and discuss this, wish this issue would really just go away, for the most part. That was the basis of my comments, because they are the ones saying that if they want to get married in a church, they will to go a church that will perform the ceremony.

Seems to me that there is a bunch of non-gays really pushing this issue, and it makes me wonder why. To prove that they are socially liberal, or is there some other motive?

who knows ? maybe it's an attack against church, and they use that motive ? Even if i still identify myself to catholic (hey you cant get rid of 16 years of religious beliefs in a flash) it doesnt matter to me to get married somewhere else than a church. what's important is what i will feel on that instant. if in my mind i want god to bless this moment, i just have to feel so, and i dont need the assistance of a guy that was nominated by a bunch of other guys who follow another guy that think that he maybe know what god want by reading and interpreting a nearly 2000 year old book that been translated and hand copied for 1000 years by monks half blinded by their work...

Excellent. It's what is in your heart that counts, not what building your heart is in.

 

[Cosmo]

Surely the answer for gays who want to be married in a church is to belong to a church that supports their viewpoints, not try and force a church that does not believe in homosexuality to alter their beliefs, faith, and tradition. Or is the ulitimate goal to force every church to change and force every church to perform SSM? Again, surely that cannot be the hidden goal of the gay community?

I agree absolutely, Blue. It's the couple's responsibility to seek out a church that will marry them in a religious ceremony that is not contraindicated by their doctrines. To do anything else is pretty much just bashing your head against the wall.

I've been active in the gay community for a long time and one thing that some people may not realize is that many of us were brought up in traditional faiths. To be rejected by the faith we were indoctrinated into is difficult. I don't think many of the gays are actually just looking for trouble, I think it's more a quest to reconcile their own internal issues. And I think that is wrong. These issues can only be resolved from within. Changing the church isn't the answer.

It's easier to change yourself than to try to change an organized religion, but religion is such a highly charged issue because it's so personal. While my sympathies go out to these people, I think they need to take care of their own inner conflicts and not ask the traditional religions to change. That, in my opinion, is going too far. Asking for the legalities to be equal is valid -- separation of church and state. But asking a church to change is an exercise in futility. It's not like there aren't any churches that welcome gays.

Imagine, though, if your church declared something about you personally was taboo. Something intrinsic, like the colour of your eyes. It is a painful situation. To rally against the church is not the answer, though. We are better served by joining a faith that supports us as the human beings we are.

I think if more gay people were vocal about that there would be less issue around the legalities. We gotta let people know we don't want to change the church, just the law.

 

[bluealberta]

Surely the answer for gays who want to be married in a church is to belong to a church that supports their viewpoints, not try and force a church that does not believe in homosexuality to alter their beliefs, faith, and tradition. Or is the ulitimate goal to force every church to change and force every church to perform SSM? Again, surely that cannot be the hidden goal of the gay community?

I agree absolutely, Blue. It's the couple's responsibility to seek out a church that will marry them in a religious ceremony that is not contraindicated by their doctrines. To do anything else is pretty much just bashing your head against the wall.

I've been active in the gay community for a long time and one thing that some people may not realize is that many of us were brought up in traditional faiths. To be rejected by the faith we were indoctrinated into is difficult. I don't think many of the gays are actually just looking for trouble, I think it's more a quest to reconcile their own internal issues. And I think that is wrong. These issues can only be resolved from within. Changing the church isn't the answer.

It's easier to change yourself than to try to change an organized religion, but religion is such a highly charged issue because it's so personal. While my sympathies go out to these people, I think they need to take care of their own inner conflicts and not ask the traditional religions to change. That, in my opinion, is going too far. Asking for the legalities to be equal is valid -- separation of church and state. But asking a church to change is an exercise in futility. It's not like there aren't any churches that welcome gays.

Imagine, though, if your church declared something about you personally was taboo. Something intrinsic, like the colour of your eyes. It is a painful situation. To rally against the church is not the answer, though. We are better served by joining a faith that supports us as the human beings we are.

I think if more gay people were vocal about that there would be less issue around the legalities. We gotta let people know we don't want to change the church, just the law.

Excellent points, and while I will still disagree about the law part :wink: I think that your point about the gay community becoming more vocal would be of great benefit and comfort to the non-gay public.

I understand your concern with religion and inner conflict, I also had these issues (not gay issues, other ones) and struggled with them for a while as well. I ultimately came to the conclusion that one did not have to attend church to be religious, and if every church said that only their members would get to heaven, well, there will be a lot of really disappointed people when they die, other than the obvious disappointment of dying :lol: So, I just decided that if there is a God, then She would have the ultimate decision anyway, so live, have fun, and take your chances. 8)

 

[Cosmo]

I understand your concern with religion and inner conflict, I also had these issues (not gay issues, other ones) and struggled with them for a while as well. I ultimately came to the conclusion that one did not have to attend church to be religious, and if every church said that only their members would get to heaven, well, there will be a lot of really disappointed people when they die, other than the obvious disappointment of dying :lol: So, I just decided that if there is a God, then She would have the ultimate decision anyway, so live, have fun, and take your chances. 8)

Hmmm ... a mind far more open than I had anticipated!

I agree about not having to attend church to have faith. I believe in spirituality vs religion. I see the value in ritual and doctrine, but it doesn't work well for me. I agree, too, that no one church has a monopoly on heaven ... if a traditional version exists. That moral certainty that many religious people have seems like a thin veneer to cover a whole bunch of fear, in my opinion.

 

[peapod]

Peapod's post was moved to moderator forum for Andem to read. Cosmo

 

[bluealberta]

I understand your concern with religion and inner conflict, I also had these issues (not gay issues, other ones) and struggled with them for a while as well. I ultimately came to the conclusion that one did not have to attend church to be religious, and if every church said that only their members would get to heaven, well, there will be a lot of really disappointed people when they die, other than the obvious disappointment of dying :lol: So, I just decided that if there is a God, then She would have the ultimate decision anyway, so live, have fun, and take your chances. 8)

Hmmm ... a mind far more open than I had anticipated!

I agree about not having to attend church to have faith. I believe in spirituality vs religion. I see the value in ritual and doctrine, but it doesn't work well for me. I agree, too, that no one church has a monopoly on heaven ... if a traditional version exists. That moral certainty that many religious people have seems like a thin veneer to cover a whole bunch of fear, in my opinion.

Thanks. It has long been my opinion that God is a female, only a female would have that kind of sense of humour 8O :lol: :wink:

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

 

[Cosmo]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[bluealberta]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Well, I am glad that I can change your opinion of me, if just a little. Just as left wingers are not all looney, neither do all right wingers fall into the easy sterotype espoused by some. Maybe there is hope for all of us, if these last few posts are any indication. Just as you, I do feel very strongly about my positions on things, but at the end of the day, things like family, friends, and nature are truly what counts, in spite of any differences we may have regarding polititcal issues.

 

[Nascar_James]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

 

[I think not]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

 

[Nascar_James]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

Really??? I didn't know guys like Chuck Norris, Tom Sellick, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Dwayne Johnston (The Rock), Kelsey Grammer ..etc) were Democrats? Last I checked, they are famous aren't they???

 

[I think not]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

Really??? I didn't know guys like Chuck Norris, Tom Sellick, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Dwayne Johnston (The Rock), Kelsey Grammer ..etc) were Democrats? Last I checked, they are famous aren't they???

There are many celebrities that are Dems. Here's a scenario for you: Bush chops wood on his ranch in Crawford and Kerry is sailing his yacht off the coast of Maine.

Add a little marketing (who will protect you? The woodchopper? or the sailor?) and you have a recipe for an election win.

 

[bluealberta]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

Really??? I didn't know guys like Chuck Norris, Tom Sellick, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Dwayne Johnston (The Rock), Kelsey Grammer ..etc) were Democrats? Last I checked, they are famous aren't they???

There are many celebrities that are Dems. Here's a scenario for you: Bush chops wood on his ranch in Crawford and Kerry is sailing his yacht off the coast of Maine.

Add a little marketing (who will protect you? The woodchopper? or the sailor?) and you have a recipe for an election win.

Yeah, the doers do, and the thinkers think about doing, by which time it is usually too late.

 

[Numure]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

Really??? I didn't know guys like Chuck Norris, Tom Sellick, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Dwayne Johnston (The Rock), Kelsey Grammer ..etc) were Democrats? Last I checked, they are famous aren't they???

Last I checked Paul Martin is a Catholic, so was Jean Chretien.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Last I checked Paul Martin is a Catholic, so was Jean Chretien.

True that...and I think that it's a testament to their statesmanship that they were able to keep their religion separate from their politics...that's about the only thing good I can say about those two clowns though... :lol:

 

[Nascar_James]

Religion is something inside a person, not the outside trappings, such as attending church, etc. There are far too many Sunday go to church types that I would not associate with, or want my kids to associate with for various reasons. However, what could be more glorious than a mountain sunset on a totally calm, cloudless day, when all the colors are shown on the horizon as the sun sets? That is a religious experience.

Blue ... I admit, I'm a bit taken aback. You and I have had our disagreements about issues, but it's refreshing to find some common ground. Nice to know there is a world beyond politics, even in the forum!

Did you guys know that had Kerry kept to his faith, he might have actually had a small chance of winning the last election. There is nothing worst than a politician who goes against his own faith. I am not talking about the religion of other Americans, but his own.

As a fellow Catholic, I was really taken aback when Kerry openly supported abortion in spite of being told by his own Catholic Church that it ws wrong to do so. He was later told if he held on to his position, to refrain from taking communion since he must clearly be associated with some other religion.

Kerry lost because of great campaigning by the Republicans in Ohio. Aside from the fact that all famous types (Hollywood etc...) always associate themselves with the Dems and middle America chopping wood every morning and working for a living will never relate to that.

Really??? I didn't know guys like Chuck Norris, Tom Sellick, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Dwayne Johnston (The Rock), Kelsey Grammer ..etc) were Democrats? Last I checked, they are famous aren't they???

Last I checked Paul Martin is a Catholic, so was Jean Chretien.

It doesn't matter what religion you have, whether it is protestant or catholic, that is irrelevant, but if you openly disagree with your own church, that is not a good method for winning elections. You are flip-flopping and it doesn't look good.

Yes, Paul Martin (Who by the way is an ultra-left wing politician) is Catholic, but he will pay the price (I hope) for his same sex marriage legislation at the next election.