France to send 2,000 troops to Lebanon

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
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RE: France to send 2,000

fair enough, the only thing I find interesting is France's role in this anyway. People have drawn parallel's with the Lebanon to Vietnam, now in way they are right you know?.

Both being former colonies of France, both being in a whole heap of trouble since cutting off (literally) relations with their colonial masters.

My whole point was that Britain was different to France in many ways, they still are, France believed in a different kind of empire, an empire without borders making it one big world-wide "France", where as Britain's was more Romanesque, in that local viceroy's had most of the rule, but it was also realised that that rule could only be achived with the consent of the ruled.

And in the end, for a number of differing reasons, Britain decided to "let them go", perhaps because it knew it couldnt keep them, but also perhaps because it was the right thing to do, certainly while fighting communist insurgence in Malaya, Britain never tried to bamboozal America into fighting it's colonial wars in the cover of anti-communism.

But really, yes you are right, a lot of "dodgy" countries have learned all their tricks from Britain, Pakistan for example pretty much kept EVERY 19th century law britain left em, making Homosexuality HIGHLY illegal for example, Uganda, Zimbabwe, South Africa (who's Apartied system Britain should be ASHAMED of), the partition shambles (resided over by the ex-president of my soccer club) in india.

No, Blackleaf will never agree, but Britain is no angel, but when you consider Britain was brought back from Socialist Oblivion in the early 80's by that old colonialist Racist anti-working class figure that was Thatcher, and now everyone seems to want top be like her...Tony Blair for example..it's not suprising they STILL arnt a whole lot better.
 

a.blabla

New Member
Aug 29, 2006
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Issy Les Moulineaux
Hello,

First, excuse me for my english, it isn't my mother tongue and I don't practice enough...
If I make too much mistakes for you, just help me to improve my english !

I'm French and I would like to give my point of view in this debate.

To blackleaf about Gorazde.
Yes, I agree with you : it's a stain in the honor... but UN honor.
I was in Former Yougoslavia in 93, 94, 95 and I remember that the problem was the lenght of the UN chain of command. I explain : if UN troops needed a close air support for example, even the UN Commander (General Morillon as you said, but Gal Janvier too) couldn't give the order : just
the UN Headquarters in NY (Boutros Boutros Gali at this moment). Remember this fact.
Remember too that it's thanks to UK and France that's war in Former Yougoslavia ended (with the action of the Rapid Reaction Force).

To blackleaf about the ROE (Rules Of Engagement).
The ROE are unclear not because of France, but because of the UN system : a resolution is only the result of negociations between countries without the same interests. To my mind, it's normal that Chirac require clear rules : it's the result of experience : we don't want to make the same mistakes. In fact, a guy in the field want to know :
- if I'm under fire may I shoot the agressors ?
- if I see Hezbollah guys breaking cease fire may shoot them ?
- if I see Israel soldiers breaking cease fire, may I shoot them ?

To blackleaf about the number of french soldiers in Lebanon.
Ok, the aren't in Lebanon for the moment. But they will be during september. France lost 58 soldiers on october 83 in only one day in Lebanon. We know this country and its dangers. France has had for more than 20 years 200 soldiers in Lebanon. And it isn't the only country where we are. There is around 20% of french army in Ivory Coast, Balkans, Afghanistan (where we've just lost 2 soldiers in an ambush last week) and in other countries less mediatic. I don't know for the air force and the navy (but I know for example that we have many boats near Somalia to fight against piratery. Moreover, as for the British army, it begins to be hard to send many soldiers : we have to keep many soldiers at home for our inner job (protect of population by example), for the different european forces in reserve etc. But we'll do.

I love work with people of other countries :I worked with brits, americans, canadians (our cousins as French say !), spanishes... And I will be happy to work with them another time in Lebanon !

To blackleaf about peace keaping.
To keep the peace, you have to make peace ! And therefore war.

For colonialism etc. I won't answer because it isn't the right thread ; but I will only say that colonialism and slavery were not only the fact of european countries.

Blabla
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
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RE: France to send 2,000

very right, and very true, but I thought the french disliked the quebecan's?..(after all that is the only part that france controlled....until General Wolfe beat you)

I've heard a frenchman call them his "bastad cousins!"...also, as a frenchperson, could you explain to this board that the normans were NOT french but germans?....thanks, I think they'll believe you.

signing off his most royal of french-ancestory Guilliem "non batard" Hocke
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
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a.blabla said:
To blackleaf about peace keaping.
To keep the peace, you have to make peace ! And therefore war.
Blabla

Now that doesn't make sense....
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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Edmonton
As for cowardly, I can just laugh at you Canadians because despite having an army of sorts you only ever use it for peacekeeping. The only time you ever go to war is when the British, your imperial masters, force you to.

The Boer War where the British didn't want us? World War I where we had the choice if we'd even send troops to fight? World War II where we didn't even HAVE to go to war? Korea? Vietnam? Cyprus? The Gulf? Somalia? The Former Yugoslavia? Afghanistan? The Canadian involvement in all of those combat actions of the 20th Century was somehow orchestrated by Britian? Please blackleaf, you clearly have an over-inflated opinion of your Nation and what it can and cannot do. Frankly, your Nation has never had a handle on our military. While yes, we came to your aid time and time again( and saved your ass a few times; i.e. Vimy Ridge, Battle of Britain, The Ledra Palace in Cyprus), you lacked one crucial aspect; positive control. After World War I, Canada vowed that no Brit would ever directly control our military again. To this date, none have. You made a bludder of the First World War, and that has had a lasting impact on our Nation. No, a common misconception (even in our society) is that our Nation only has and only will peacekeep. The truth blackleaf, is that Canada has spent more years at war in the 20th Century than peacekeeping. Canada is a war fighting Nation, and we decide when and when not to go to War (i.e. Afghanistan and Iraq). So get off your moral high horse and just come to terms with the fact that the British Empire is long dead. The Queen has resigned herself to that fact, perhaps now you should?
 

a.blabla

New Member
Aug 29, 2006
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Issy Les Moulineaux
To Daz_Hockey about French and Quebecans
Most French like Quebecans ! For us, it's a sort of "american dream" which speak french (French are not well none for their english level, are they ?). Many Quebecan artists began in France (Céline Dion for example) or are well known. To my mind, the French you heard is an exception. And we remember that Canadian soldiers help us during WWI and WWWII (there are Canadian cimeteries and memorials in France).

To Daz_Hockey about Normans
As usually, History is more complex. During the IX and X centuries, Vikings were the terror of Europe : they led raids in England, France, even in Spain. So in 876, King of England let north-east of England to the Danish (Danelaw, capital : York). In 911 King of France gave Rollon the authority on the territory of Normandy in exchange of an alliance against the other Vikings pirats. So, William the "bastard" the Conqueror, was the son of a descedant of Rollon and of a woman of ordinary people. So, you can say that it's a mix of French, Danish and Swedish people who had taken the crown of England in 1066 ! :)

To Hotshot
The problem is : does the international community want to impose peace or not ? To impose something like that it's necessary to make war against the both sides : you break the cease fire, FINUL shoot your warriors or your soldiers. That's why France sent main battle tanks in Lebanon. That's why the battalion which came last week is an engineer battalion : repair the damage, prepare the coming of MBT etc. You can't send many and many soldiers and hope that they will find their position with luck : search the best emplacement and prepare the ground is the first priority.

Blabla
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
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RE: France to send 2,000

Thanks....a.blabla.....yes, sorry I only asked because my name is also Hocke' (same as a lot of french kings...William in particular) and I was trying to prove a point with Cortex.

But yes, I would avoid Blackleaf, he's not a big fan of the french.....(and did you know that actually Celine Dione, represented Austria in the Eurovision song contest?....although Katrina and the waves, who is canadian, represented the UK).
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
48,608
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France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from
these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." --Mark Twain

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"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --General George S. Patton

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"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf

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"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." --Marge Simpson

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"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure."

--Jacques Chirac, President of France

"As far as France is concerned, you're right."

--Rush Limbaugh

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"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee." --Regis Philbin

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"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky I don't know." --P.J. O'Rourke (1989)

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"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it."

-- John McCain , U.S. Senator from Arizona

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"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people." --Conan O'Brien

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"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get Hitler out of France either." --Jay Leno

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"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag." --David Letterman

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"Only thing worse than a Frenchman is a French man who lives in Canada." --Ted Nugent

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"War without France would be like ... World War II."

--Unknown

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"The favorite bumper sticker in Washington D.C. right now is one that says 'First Iraq, then France.'" --Tom Brokaw

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"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?" --Dennis Miller

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"It is important to remember that the French have always been there when they needed us." --Alan Kent

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"They've taken their own precautions against al-Qa'ida. To prepare for an attack, each Frenchman is urged to keep duct tape, a white flag, and a three-day supply of mistresses in the house." --Argus Hamilton

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"Somebody was telling me about the French Army rifle that was being advertised on eBay the other day -- the description was, 'Never shot. Dropped once.'"

--Rep. Roy Blunt, MO

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"The French will only agree to go to war when we've proven we've found truffles in Iraq ." --Dennis Miller

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"Raise your right hand if you like the French, ... raise both hands if you are French." --Unknown

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Q. What did the mayor of Paris say to the German Army as they entered the city in WWII?

A. Table for 100,000 m'sieur?

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"Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris ? It's not known, it's never been tried." --Rep. R. Blount, MO

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"Do you know it only took Germany three days to conquer France in WWII? And that's because it was raining."

--John Xereas, Manager, DC Improv

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The AP and UPI reported that the French Government announced after the London bombings that it has raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide. The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate. The rise in the alert level was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France 's white flag factory, effectively
disabling their military.

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French Ban Fireworks at Euro Disney

(AP), Paris, March 5, 2003

The French Government announced today that it is imposing a ban on the use of fireworks at Euro Disney. The decision comes the day after a nightly fireworks display at the park, located just 30 miles outside of Paris, caused the soldiers at a nearby French Army garrison to surrender to a group of Czech tourists.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
48,608
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Re: RE: France to send 2,000

Daz_Hockey said:
Thanks....a.blabla.....yes, sorry I only asked because my name is also Hocke' (same as a lot of french kings...William in particular) and I was trying to prove a point with Cortex.

But yes, I would avoid Blackleaf, he's not a big fan of the french.....(and did you know that actually Celine Dione, represented Austria in the Eurovision song contest?....although Katrina and the waves, who is canadian, represented the UK).


I think Celine Dion represented Switzerland.

The Swiss couldn't have a Swisswoman singing for them because no way would yodelling help them to win the competition.
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
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RE: France to send 2,000

ah ya got me there Blackleaf, French, Swiss, Austrian, are they not all the same? hehe
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
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Blackleaf said:
France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from
these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." --Mark Twain

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Etc, etc, etc.

Blackleaf, you are an ass. You know the quotes you posted were toung in cheek for laughs. I am no fan of the French, neither am I a fan you morons such as yourself. You do the Brits a dis-service. Crawl back into the hole you came out from.
 

a.blabla

New Member
Aug 29, 2006
14
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Issy Les Moulineaux
About Céline Dion
I did'nt know that she has won The Eurovision song contest. But after a searh on Wikipedia, I can say that she represented Switzerland. And the same year there was another Quebecan singer : Lara Fabian for Luxembourg ! If there is a World song contest, Canadians will win too much often !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest_1988


To Blackleaf about your sentences
Many of these sentences made me laugh ! I like british humour (safe Benny Hill, sorry !). You wasted your time to look for these quotes, so thank you. But, how to say that... do you try to think with your own mind ? If I want, I can make the same thing and give everybody here many and many sentences against UK. And then ? Does the debate go on ? No. Did you give any idea ? No. To my mind you're not a good British : you're as a rugbyman who go into touch and don't give us a good idea of british people. You don't know what to answer so you try to make laugh and insult the others who don't think as you. Where is your british phlegm ? You remember me when I was a teenager ! In fact, you act as... a French ! ;)

So, let's go to debate !

I think that UK and France have a common point of view on one thing. At the beginning of XX century, we (F and UK) were the stronger in the world. But because of the WWI and WWII now it's the turn of the USA. Wheel turns as we say in France. Our countries are nostalgic of this, it's normal.
And our reaction against this fact is'nt the same. Now, the UK governement always follows the strongest of playground. OK, it's a choice. France made another choice, trying to find another way. Sometimes we agree with them (First Gulf War), sometimes we disagree (Second Gulf War). Is it really a crime not to think as the strongest ?
I think that France dislike the USA when they behave as they are : the strongest of the playground. And so they do what they want when they want and they don't care about the others. When we were the srongest, we did exactly the same thing ; You in India, we in Algeria !

To come back to the subject of the thread, I think it's better for everybody to clear the rules. It'sn't wasted time. Look back former Yugoslavia : during 3 years, UN troops were only there to be shot ! More than one hundred companions are dead in this country. And it's only the french army. How many british people died in this country ? And why ? Remember what I said before : the ROE were unclear and the command chain was to long. We have to remember to not make the same mistake in Lebanon.

Blabla
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
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RE: France to send 2,000

A.Blabla...Benny Hill is a god!!!!

and he's from about 150 metres where I'm living now...so I'll have no moaning about Benny Hill thank you very much!!!

:) :p lolol
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
1,927
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RE: France to send 2,000

it's because he's rude!!!.....and did you know Moulineaux is the name of Wolverhampton wonderers Football Club stadium?...there is a random odd fact for you.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
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When Israel agreed to lift the air and sea blockade of Lebanon two days ago, the UN promised that the forces replacing them would interdict arms intended to resupply their enemy, Hezbollah. France, which will provide substantial forces in controlling sea access to Lebanon, now says its military will not use force to stop anything:

France announced on Friday that the international naval force designated to patrol Lebanon's territorial waters would not be authorized to employ force to stop ships from entering or leaving Lebanon.

A spokesman for the French defense ministry said that the international craft would only provide assistance for Lebanese ships, and would not interfere with other nations' boats, Israel Radio reported.

Earlier Friday, Israel began to remove its naval blockade of Lebanon, imposed almost two months after Hizbullah launched its cross-border raid and kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.

Maj.-Gen. Alain Pellegrini, the French commander of UNIFIL, said government officials informed him Friday afternoon that the blockade was being lifted. Government spokeswoman Miri Eisin said she didn't have immediate confirmation that the final order had been given to lift the siege, but said earlier Friday that the blockade would be ended within hours.

Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema, meeting with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, announced that a multinational task force, commanded by an Italian admiral, had begun patrolling Lebanese territorial waters.


One has to ask why France and Italy even bothered to show up. Relying on the Lebanese is what started this war in the first place. The Siniora government never bothered to make an attempt at compliance with UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which required them to disarm Hezbollah. They were either unwilling or unable, or a combination of both, to make that common-sense move; they stood by and watched Hezbollah add to their arsenals.

Now the UN forces propose to do the same thing all over again. France sent a military force to the Mediterranean coast of Lebanon to essentially do nothing but observe boats going in and out of the harbor. They may just as well have sent a regatta crowd to Tyre and fired up a few barbeques. Perhaps the French believe that a simple finger-wagging and a vicious tongue-lashing will force arms merchants to flee from Lebanon, with French scolding ringing in their ears?

This is another example of the UN's betrayal of Israel during this cease-fire process. At every step, the UN has promised to provide the security Israel requires in order to get the IDF to withdraw, only to see the component forces declare openly that they have no intention of fulfilling the mission. And of all the nations complicit in this disaster, France has been the most perfidious. They insisted on setting the terms of the cease-fire, and then have consistently reneged on support. It proves yet again that the only thing worse that having France arrayed against you is having them allied with you.

www.captainsquartersblog.com . . .
 

a.blabla

New Member
Aug 29, 2006
14
0
1
Issy Les Moulineaux
RE: France to send 2,000

Blackleaf, what do you say about the french MBT (Main Battle Tanks) which just arrived in Lebanon ? Is that enough or do you want all french army in Lebanon ?

Blabla