Favourite public school system?

[Machjo]

because, the same as Ontario, it was a condition of joining confederation.

So then let's renegotiate the Constitution. Unless it's infallible of course.

 

[Machjo]

Let's put it this way, is it worth living in a country on condition that we discriminate unfairly against a particular group?

Should the feds refuse to renegotiate the constitution to make it more just, then their real colours would come out. At that stage, defederation might be preferable for the sake of justice.

 

[gerryh]

That would be up to the government to decide. I could see two options:

1. To qualify to accept vouchers, the school would need to accept all applicants even if they cannot afford to pay beyond the cost of the voucher. or

2. Any school could accept the vouchers.

I don't know for sure how it works in Sweden, but personally, I'd lean in favour of 1 above myself.

Right now, the Catholic systems in both Ontario and Alberta must accept any and all, why would it be different if there was a fully funded Jewish school...or Muslim school? Would they also restrict religious teaching like the Catholic schools do? Would they restrict the sciences and sicial studies to ONLY the government mandated curiculum?

 

[Machjo]

Right now, the Catholic systems in both Ontario and Alberta must accept any and all, why would it be different if there was a fully funded Jewish school...or Muslim school? Would they also restrict religious teaching like the Catholic schools do? Would they restrict the sciences and sicial studies to ONLY the government mandated curiculum?

Are you suggesting that we fund all religious schools? It wouldn't be my first choice, but I could accept that too. At least it would fit with the principle fo justice, same rules for all.

 

[gerryh]

Let's put it this way, is it worth living in a country on condition that we discriminate unfairly against a particular group?

Should the feds refuse to renegotiate the constitution to make it more just, then their real colours would come out. At that stage, defederation might be preferable for the sake of justice.

SOrry, I don't see any descrimination, at all. What I do see is one whiner in Ontario that has decided to make a big deal out of nothing and go to the UN. If he wants to send his kid to a jewish school....then do it.... if he can't afford it, ask his local synygogue for financial help. If they are unwilling to help him.....then that say's a lot about that synygogue and the jewish faith.

 

[Machjo]

Essentially, I suppose I could see three options:

1. one unified secular school system (no religious school gets any funding).
2. Voucher system. No school gets any guarantees. The Free market decides.
3. All religious schools get funding.

The third would be my last choice because it would also be the most expensive. But yes, at least it would conform to the principle of justice, unlike the current system.

I suppose that last option would also have the option of not needing changes to the constitution, unlike the first two.

 

[Machjo]

SOrry, I don't see any descrimination, at all. What I do see is one whiner in Ontario that has decided to make a big deal out of nothing and go to the UN. If he wants to send his kid to a jewish school....then do it.... if he can't afford it, ask his local synygogue for financial help. If they are unwilling to help him.....then that say's a lot about that synygogue and the jewish faith.

No discrimination at all? If a Catholic in ontario wants to send his child to a Catholic school, the taxpayer pays for it. If a jew wants to send his child to a Jewish school, he still pays his taxes but then has to pay again for private tuition. How is that fair?

 

[gerryh]

No discrimination at all? If a Catholic in ontario wants to send his child to a Catholic school, the taxpayer pays for it. If a jew wants to send his child to a Jewish school, he still pays his taxes but then has to pay again for private tuition. How is that fair?

The "private" Jewish school has the ability to recieve somewhere in the neighbourhood of 70% of it's funding from the province, and that's still retaining the ability to pick and choose who they allow in.

 

[Machjo]

The "private" Jewish school has the ability to recieve somewhere in the neighbourhood of 70% of it's funding from the province, and that's still retaining the ability to pick and choose who they allow in.

By the way, yo might not be aware of this, but private Catholic schools exist in Ontario too because they did not want to subject themselves to certain government restrictions. The difference though is this: The law grants Catholic schools the option of submitting to 100% subsidization, but it doesn't grant jewish schools the same freedom. Even if that private Jewish school expressed a willingness to abide by the same rules as the Catholic system, there would be no law to deal with that, because the law grants this privilege specifically to Catholic schools. So in fact that Jewish father is LEGALLY deprived of an option that is LEGALLY granted to Catholics. It is systematic legilstated discrimination against a particular religion.

 

[gerryh]

well.... it appears I have been wrong about the Ontario system. It looks like it doesn't fund ANY private schools period, faith based or otherwise, unlike the Alberta government which does partialy fund private schools, depending on their curriculum.

 

[gerryh]

what appears to be the stumbling block in Ontario is the fact that the electorate is unwilling to even partially fund private schools.

 

[Machjo]

well.... it appears I have been wrong about the Ontario system. It looks like it doesn't fund ANY private schools period, faith based or otherwise, unlike the Alberta government which does partialy fund private schools, depending on their curriculum.

I didn't know the details, but I did know that the Alberta government had somehow skirted around the discrimination problem, unlike Ontario.

For me, how we establish justice (all secular, funding for all religions, or free market through vouchers) is secondary to the priority of eliminating discrimination in the system. it's actually embarrassing for Ontario as a democracy.

 

[Machjo]

what appears to be the stumbling block in Ontario is the fact that the electorate is unwilling to even partially fund private schools.

Personally, I think a Swedish-style voucher system could work. Or alternatively, if we absolutely refuse to fund the private system, then at least make it equal for all religions by making all public schools secular. Again, there are different ways of establishing legislative equality, by either funding all religius schools or none or letting the market decide. But when the government supports one and not another, then it becoems blatant discrimination.

 

[gerryh]

I didn't know the details, but I did know that the Alberta government had somehow skirted around the discrimination problem, unlike Ontario.

For me, how we establish justice (all secular, funding for all religions, or free market through vouchers) is secondary to the priority of eliminating discrimination in the system. it's actually embarrassing for Ontario as a democracy.

Well, as a democracy, the electorate in Ontario have spoken when it comes to funding of private or faith based schools in the last election. The Tory's had their plan for funding Faith based schools, while McGuinty prefered he status quo. The people of Ontario chose McGuinty's view.

 

[Machjo]

Well, as a democracy, the electorate in Ontario have spoken when it comes to funding of private or faith based schools in the last election. The Tory's had their plan for funding Faith based schools, while McGuinty prefered he status quo. The people of Ontario chose McGuinty's view.

I agree. But at what stage does the will of the majority go too far in discriminating unjustly in favour of one religion ovr another. Indeed, they have spoken to their shame.

 

[Machjo]

And here's the irony:

Ontari is oh so progressive, while Alberta is made up of rednecks and right wingnuts supposedly. Yet who is it that have proven progressive in granting equal rights for all and who is it that has chosen to discriminate. It would seem to me that Alberta is more progressive than Ontario.

By the way, the Alberta system also allows Cree and Blackfoot to fulfil second-language requirements for highschool graduation. Ontario does nothing of the sort for its Aboriginal languages. Only French is acceptable.

Seriously, when it comes to education, Alberta is far more progressive than Ontario. Ontario's school system is still in the age of the old Orangists.

 

[Machjo]

Here's some info on the Swedish system:

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Swedish parents enjoy school choice

 

[AnnaG]

The Swedish system from the "horse's mouth":

Google Translate

Apparently Finland has the best system:

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Finland tops global school table