Fahrenheit 9/11 maker shies from his own heat

bhoour

Electoral Member
May 10, 2005
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That Moore is a hypocrite doesn't surprize me in the least.


.........who isn't.......???

... the difference lies in the fact that, not to many hypocrites have the gonads to stand up to the all powerful DUBAYA, and shove in his face, that he is a MORON.


Perhaps by buying shares in these companies, he is using profit ( made from these companies) to help expose them for what they really are.........hmmmmmm.....just a thought
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
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I have yet to see a single irrefutable demonstration that Michael Moore has presented falsehoods as fact, unlike his targets. There are tons of urban legends about what he has "lied" about, but they have been countered and are only perpetuated by the ignorant, the intellectually lazy and people whose ideology is more imporatnt to them than the facts.

Are his interpretations evenhanded and unbiased? Of course not. he's a polemicist and he will always choose the conclusion that favours his point of view. Why should he have to be the only representative of saint-like evenhandedness in a world of Ann Coulters and Thomas Friedmans?

But unlike those two, and almost ALL others, he doesn't make up facts.

I don't agree with all his conclusions, but I've looked into the masses of attempts to discredit his research and it's all lies, misrepresentations or huffiness at his conclusions.

Perhaps our resident Moore-haters are going to smugly post links to one of the hundreds of "Michael Moore is a Liar because he's Fat and he Insulted the Most godly president that has Ever Blessed mankind With His Divine Presence Websites."

Not only will i ignore them, but I will "wave my private parts at your aunties" and "fart in your general direction." Not only that, but I will say:" Now go away before I taunt you a second time!"

If anyone has an example of MM lying that they'd care to share and defend, that's another thing. I'd love to have a clear cut "Michael Moore lied" example to launch at those insufferable (and all-too-common) knee-jerk ideological Lefties who think ther're SO intellectually superior. I'm willing to fart in their general direction, too. :p
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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What nonsense,

Documentary film making, and satire are not mutually exclusive. Making a film about the lies of a morally bankrupt government can be both documentary and satire.

I doubt that Moore has anything to do with hiring people to work for his various concerns.

I guess Moore chased all the black people out with a broom.

Moore also probably couldn't tell you what stock he owns.

I forgot to mention that Moore is fat.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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pastafarian said:
I.

Perhaps our resident Moore-haters are going to smugly post links to one of the hundreds of "Michael Moore is a Liar because he's Fat and he Insulted the Most godly president that has Ever Blessed mankind With His Divine Presence Websites."

Not only will i ignore them, but I will "wave my private parts at your aunties" and "fart in your general direction." Not only that, but I will say:" Now go away before I taunt you a second time!"

If anyone has an example of MM lying that they'd care to share and defend, that's another thing. I'd love to have a clear cut "Michael Moore lied" example to launch at those insufferable (and all-too-common) knee-jerk ideological Lefties who think ther're SO intellectually superior. I'm willing to fart in their general direction, too. :p

What a strange person!

Is there anyone else up there we could talk to? :D

I am 2/3 through Farenheit 9/11. I despise Moore for his arrogance, and his stupidity, not for lying.

He even has points in 9/11 about the Patriot Act. But he is essentually a propagandist.

I saw him on Counterspin just after Columbine, I watched him lecture the assembled folk on how such a thing was impossible in Canada. This was the very day a kid walked into the High School in Taber and..........

In "Bowling for Columbine" Moore has a functionary from Flint Michighan talking on and on about "fear". People were so afraid in Flint, he said, that they had been buying buying up handguns at an increasing rate over the seven years he had been there. And this, he said (growing indignant) while the crime and murder rates had been dropping those whole seven years...........

JUST A MINUTE!!!! More Guns, Less Crime.....sounds like a John Lott book to me! (look it up)

The point being, Moore ain't all that sharp, disproving his own theories.

But he is arrogant.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Re: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 maker

no1important said:
Well exactly what was untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11? The facts he presented are accurate.

I didn't say he was a liar, I said he was an arrogant, stupid propagandist.

When I'm done watching 9-11, I'm gonna rent Farenhype 911, the rebuttal.

Then I'll get back to you.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
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Re: RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 maker

Colpy said:
no1important said:
Well exactly what was untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11? The facts he presented are accurate.

I didn't say he was a liar, I said he was an arrogant, stupid propagandist.

When I'm done watching 9-11, I'm gonna rent Farenhype 911, the rebuttal.

Then I'll get back to you.

After the people on your chosen side tell you what to think and say. In my opinion, people who can't explain their thoughts on a cetrtain topic without leaning on someone else as a crutch don't deserve to voice them. That applies equally to tree-huggers quoting Moore and bible-thumpers echoing O'reilly.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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"The author, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, went through publicly available IRS (tax) documents to discover that Moore's foundation bought shares in some of the companies he has spent a career in the media attacking.

Not just a few shares either - don't forget Moore has always said he doesn't own any stock and doesn't have a broker - but his foundation owns tens of thousands of shares in Boeing, Sonoco, Eli Lilly, and Halliburton, the same defence company that Fahrenheit 9/11 attacked for making huge profits out of rebuilding countries like Afghanistan and Iraq after American military intervention.

Even more damaging, try logging on to the Name the Hypocrite website, and read claims that Moore, who says conservatives are racist because they don't support affirmative action, has only managed to employ three black people out of a workforce of 135 people working on his books, television shows and radio projects.

Moore, who says that Americans who live in white neighbourhoods are racist, has lived for the past seven years in a waterfront home in Central Lake, Michigan, a community of 2 600 residents. The 2000 census records show the number of black people living there is zero. "


It would be like David Suzuki giving a damning speech on over sized vehicles and then drives away in a Hummer.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Fahrenheit 9/11 maker

Do you know what your investments are, Jay? Most of us don't...we get somebody else to handle it. Those are personal investments. In this case you are going after a foundation that Moore has little or no day to day involvement with.

This is all being done with an eye to smearing and discrediting Moore, with the final goal being to effectively silence him and remove any influence he has on politics. It's a cowardly and underhanded attack...just the kind of corrupt dishonesty we've come to expect from the Republicans and their Conservative soulmates in Canada.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Rev, you and I both know that if this was some conservative personality you would be jumping up and down calling him a hypocrite. You might be fooling some of the people here, but not me.

I would be of the opinion that David Suzuki wouldn't allow for this to be happening in one of his organizations, and that he doesn't show up in a Hummer.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
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Colpy, I take it that you are not a Python fan. Oh well, more's the pity. :p

Maybe Moore is a hypocrite, I don't know -- but given the tendency of US Right to lie , slander and libel their opponents, I'd need to hear MM's side before I was willing to buy it-- but it doesn't bear on the veracity and accuracy of the claims he makes in his documentaries.

Separate the message from the messenger, folks, otherwise you risk arguing from authority and the opposite logical fallacy, the ad hominem attack. I mean, just because Goebbels was a contemptible human being doesn't mean his insights about propaganda are without value, for example.

Oh, and Jay, show me a right wing equivalent to MM who has been attacked on this site who isn't a demonstrated liar, or whose "facts" have a life outside the brainwashed conswervative echo chamber, then we can see if all is fair between ithe ideological poles.
 

Breakthrough2006

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2005
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Do you know what your investments are, Jay? Most of us don't...we get somebody else to handle it. Those are personal investments. In this case you are going after a foundation that Moore has little or no day to day involvement with.

Sounds an awful like Martins excuse for adscam. How was he supposed to know what was going on with the finances in Canada, he was just the Finance Minister.

Well exactly what was untrue in Fahrenheit 9/11?


Recruiters in Michigan

Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

2) Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

3) The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

4) The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

5) The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

6) The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)

It must be evident to anyone, despite the rapid-fire way in which Moore's direction eases the audience hastily past the contradictions, that these discrepant scatter shots do not cohere at any point. Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. (They opposed the removal, all right: They wouldn't even let Tony Blair land his own plane on their soil at the time of the operation.) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr. Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar—an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building—is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left—like the parties of the Iraqi secular left—are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

He prefers leaden sarcasm to irony and, indeed, may not appreciate the distinction. In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film, he makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. 11. I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. And Richard Clarke, Bush's former chief of counterterrorism, has come forward to say that he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures. This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that—as you might expect—Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies."

A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing planner for future aggressive wars?) But the shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.

The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say—that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box.

But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that's not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)

That this—his pro-American moment—was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)

Thus, in spite of the film's loaded bias against the work of the mind, you can grasp even while watching it that Michael Moore has just said, in so many words, the one thing that no reflective or informed person can possibly believe: that Saddam Hussein was no problem. No problem at all. Now look again at the facts I have cited above. If these things had been allowed to happen under any other administration, you can be sure that Moore and others would now glibly be accusing the president of ignoring, or of having ignored, some fairly unmistakable "warnings."

The same "let's have it both ways" opportunism infects his treatment of another very serious subject, namely domestic counterterrorist policy. From being accused of overlooking too many warnings—not exactly an original point—the administration is now lavishly taunted for issuing too many. (Would there not have been "fear" if the harbingers of 9/11 had been taken seriously?) We are shown some American civilians who have had absurd encounters with idiotic "security" staff. (Have you ever met anyone who can't tell such a story?) Then we are immediately shown underfunded police departments that don't have the means or the manpower to do any stop-and-search: a power suddenly demanded by Moore on their behalf that we know by definition would at least lead to some ridiculous interrogations. Finally, Moore complains that there isn't enough intrusion and confiscation at airports and says that it is appalling that every air traveler is not forcibly relieved of all matches and lighters. (Cue mood music for sinister influence of Big Tobacco.) So—he wants even more pocket-rummaging by airport officials? Uh, no, not exactly. But by this stage, who's counting? Moore is having it three ways and asserting everything and nothing. Again—simply not serious.

Circling back to where we began, why did Moore's evil Saudis not join "the Coalition of the Willing"? Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other's pockets, as is alleged in a sort of vulgar sub-Brechtian scene with Arab headdresses replacing top hats, then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad? The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq's recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film's "theory." Perhaps Moore prefers the pro-Saudi Kissinger/Scowcroft plan for the Middle East, where stability trumps every other consideration and where one dare not upset the local house of cards, or killing-field of Kurds? This would be a strange position for a purported radical. Then again, perhaps he does not take this conservative line because his real pitch is not to any audience member with a serious interest in foreign policy. It is to the provincial isolationist.

I have already said that Moore's film has the staunch courage to mock Bush for his verbal infelicity. Yet it's much, much braver than that. From Fahrenheit 9/11 you can glean even more astounding and hidden disclosures, such as the capitalist nature of American society, the existence of Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex," and the use of "spin" in the presentation of our politicians. It's high time someone had the nerve to point this out. There's more. Poor people often volunteer to join the army, and some of them are duskier than others. Betcha didn't know that. Back in Flint, Mich., Moore feels on safe ground. There are no martyred rabbits this time. Instead, it's the poor and black who shoulder the packs and rifles and march away. I won't dwell on the fact that black Americans have fought for almost a century and a half, from insisting on their right to join the U.S. Army and fight in the Civil War to the right to have a desegregated Army that set the pace for post-1945 civil rights. I'll merely ask this: In the film, Moore says loudly and repeatedly that not enough troops were sent to garrison Afghanistan and Iraq. (This is now a favorite cleverness of those who were, in the first place, against sending any soldiers at all.) Well, where does he think those needful heroes and heroines would have come from? Does he favor a draft—the most statist and oppressive solution? Does he think that only hapless and gullible proles sign up for the Marines? Does he think—as he seems to suggest—that parents can "send" their children, as he stupidly asks elected members of Congress to do? Would he have abandoned Gettysburg because the Union allowed civilians to pay proxies to serve in their place? Would he have supported the antidraft (and very antiblack) riots against Lincoln in New York? After a point, one realizes that it's a waste of time asking him questions of this sort. It would be too much like taking him seriously. He'll just try anything once and see if it floats or flies or gets a cheer.


Trying to talk congressmen into sending their sons to war

Indeed, Moore's affected and ostentatious concern for black America is one of the most suspect ingredients of his pitch package. In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell. The Pennsylvania drama also reminds one of the self-evident fact that this war is not fought only "overseas" or in uniform, but is being brought to our cities. Yet Moore is a silly and shady man who does not recognize courage of any sort even when he sees it because he cannot summon it in himself. To him, easy applause, in front of credulous audiences, is everything.

Moore has announced that he won't even appear on TV shows where he might face hostile questioning. I notice from the New York Times of June 20 that he has pompously established a rapid response team, and a fact-checking staff, and some tough lawyers, to bulwark himself against attack. He'll sue, Moore says, if anyone insults him or his pet. Some right-wing hack groups, I gather, are planning to bring pressure on their local movie theaters to drop the film. How dumb or thuggish do you have to be in order to counter one form of stupidity and cowardice with another? By all means go and see this terrible film, and take your friends, and if the fools in the audience strike up one cry, in favor of surrender or defeat, feel free to join in the conversation.

However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point. And as for the scary lawyers—get a life, or maybe see me in court. But I offer this, to Moore and to his rapid response rabble. Any time, Michael my boy. Let's redo Telluride. Any show. Any place. Any platform. Let's see what you're made of.

Some people soothingly say that one should relax about all this. It's only a movie. No biggie. It's no worse than the tomfoolery of Oliver Stone. It's kick-ass entertainment. It might even help get out "the youth vote." Yeah, well, I have myself written and presented about a dozen low-budget made-for-TV documentaries, on subjects as various as Mother Teresa and Bill Clinton and the Cyprus crisis, and I also helped produce a slightly more polished one on Henry Kissinger that was shown in movie theaters. So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft. If you flatter and fawn upon your potential audience, I might add, you are patronizing them and insulting them. By the same token, if I write an article and I quote somebody and for space reasons put in an ellipsis like this (…), I swear on my children that I am not leaving out anything that, if quoted in full, would alter the original meaning or its significance. Those who violate this pact with readers or viewers are to be despised. At no point does Michael Moore make the smallest effort to be objective. At no moment does he pass up the chance of a cheap sneer or a jeer. He pitilessly focuses his camera, for minutes after he should have turned it off, on a distraught and bereaved mother whose grief we have already shared. (But then, this is the guy who thought it so clever and amusing to catch Charlton Heston, in Bowling for Columbine, at the onset of his senile dementia.) Such courage.

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture. Rock the vote, indeed.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
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Breakthrough2006, I see you have cut and pasted the well-travelled , and often ridiculed Hitchens attempt at de-bunking the film, instead of simply providing a link. Congratulations on your mastery of those tricky Windows procedures. It would have been more interesting to see if you had thought about the film and what you thought might be false, or why you think that Hitchens' points discredit the film, or how, for example, the false dichotomy concerning the role of the House of Saud in US policy invalidates Moore's concern that it may have led to US vulnerability to attack on 9/11. However, since you didn't, I shall be true to my word:

:bootyshake:
Je péte.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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You know berkley did a huge study a few years ago on how conservatives form their idealogy...I would say that study was pretty much accurate if you read this thread :p And no, I am not going to go find that study for you...do it yourself :wink:
 

Breakthrough2006

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Dec 2, 2005
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Breakthrough2006, I see you have cut and pasted the well-travelled , and often ridiculed Hitchens attempt at de-bunking the film

I think it's safe to say that Moore has been ridiculed more than any non political figure in history.

That should say a lot about him.

Passing off articles as "right-wing rhetoric" when doing the exact same thing on the left side would make one a hypocrit.

Was it not Michael Moore that stated as a matter of fact that Torontonians don't even bother to lock their doors? I lived in Toronto for 30 years and I had 2 deadbolts, a regular lock and a chain lock. I'm sure most if not ALL Torontonians would agree that Moore is full of it.

No link provided.
 

Jo Canadian

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Mar 15, 2005
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PEI...for now
 

Jo Canadian

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Breakthrough2006 said:
I think it's safe to say that Moore has been ridiculed more than any non political figure in history.

That should say a lot about him.

No it doesn't. It just re-enfocrces the fact that ridicule seems to be the only defence that the right seems to bring up when confronted with evidence that cannot be logically argued against.

MM just makes his message more showy, because the common 'westernized' person is unable to sit through a regular documentary because of the lack of entertainment, which of course learning or analyzing information isn't to them....So now MM has overcome that barrier and you have people sitting down for the whole documentary and going WTF??
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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pumpkin pie bungalow
Blunt tools my friend, blunt tools. Yes as pasta pointed out, please show us where moore lied in film. Instead of all about his "personal" life...yes...yes... I know this boundary is not in the neocons dictionary. But why not keep it simple...Please show us where moore lied, like give us some real examples..
 

Breakthrough2006

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2005
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Please show us where moore lied, like give us some real examples..

Torontonians don't lock their doors.

No it doesn't. It just re-enfocrces the fact that ridicule seems to be the only defence that the right seems to bring up when confronted with evidence that cannot be logically argued against.

Is it not the left that ridicules Harper? That's different right?