Expatriate Voting Policy

[sanch]

Hi I’m a Canadian and am very interested in the outcome of the upcoming election but I can’t vote. I belong to a sizeable demographic that numbers between 500, 000 and 1 million Canadians depending on the source. The 500,000 figure was recently announced by Joe Volpe and I assume that this only includes individuals that have a reason to stay in contact with Immigration so there are probably many more expatriates. What we share as a group is that we have retained our Canadian citizenship. Most individuals in this category also have some level of university education and many have skills that Canada needs.

If one breaks the overall voting demographic down to gauge the potential significance of the expatriate bloc, one can see they could easily be a determining factor in any election. If one factors in voter eligibility, excluding individuals under the voting age and landed immigrants, and considers that only 60% of eligible voters voted in the 2004 election, then the number of Canadians who vote are roughly about 14,000,000. Again none of these numbers are exact but one can probably say the expatriate population is larger than that of Newfoundland and smaller than that of Manitoba. So as a bloc we might represent as much as 4 to 7% of eligible voters. This would be an addition to the voting population as I doubt as a group we are included in the census. We are in every sense a pariah or non-recognized group.


Britain recently reduced the time period one is abroad and can still retain voting rights to 15 years from 20 years. Still in Britain this was considered to be a barbaric policy and an attempt to further disenfranchise a sector of the British population.

[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2003/09/11/expatvote4.xml

“EU voting rights
Most states, especially within the EU, give their expatriates voting rights of unlimited duration. (Denmark has a five-year limit, Germany a 25-year cap for nationals living outside Europe.) In addition to voting for their representatives in Paris, French expats elect a High Council of French citizens resident abroad. This body, which regularly meets government officials, elects 12 senators to look after expat interests. France values its expatriates.
All EU states except Britain have written constitutions that stipulate, directly or by reference to specific laws, the voting rights of citizens. Thus citizens cannot be deprived of their inalienable rights without either constitutional legislation passed by a large majority, referendums or even elections.
In the UK a government has the power to disenfranchise citizens, even if it has only a tiny majority, though under existing legislation the "military, diplomats, crown servants and the British Council" are not disenfranchised when living abroad. It is regrettable that Parliament has not recognized the rights of expats working in the commercial, cultural and similar fields, many of which are just as important to Britain. “

As far as I know most countries with large expatriate populations have some form of repatriation program that includes voting rights. Why not Canada? Canada is an anomaly in NAFTA as both the US and Mexico allow expatriates to vote. Canada and its policy to expatriates stands in vivid contrast not only to western nations but in comparison to many African, Asian and Latin American countries as well that allow their citizens to vote abroad.

I am curious as to the strategy behind such a policy. Is this an example of enlightened thinking and Canada has taken the lead and is waiting patiently for the rest of the world to emulate its strategy? I really am genuinely looking for an answer or some way to understand the policy. I can’t even come up with any debate on the issue.

Happy New Year. Thanks as well as to any thought you give to this puzzling policy. Cheers

 

[Nascar_James]

Hi I’m a Canadian and am very interested in the outcome of the upcoming election but I can’t vote. I belong to a sizeable demographic that numbers between 500, 000 and 1 million Canadians depending on the source. The 500,000 figure was recently announced by Joe Volpe and I assume that this only includes individuals that have a reason to stay in contact with Immigration so there are probably many more expatriates. What we share as a group is that we have retained our Canadian citizenship. Most individuals in this category also have some level of university education and many have skills that Canada needs.

True, there are many Canadians who can't vote as they have made a new life for themselves are are now citizens of other countries.

I have no objection with not being able to cast my vote for a Federal election in Canada. Not living there anymore, I don't pay taxes there anymore and therefore have given up my right to vote there as well.

 

[sanch]

Did you give up your Canadian citizenship? Don’t you feel Canadians abroad should have the right to decide whether they would like to vote or not just as you have? There are individuals such as yourself who have decided to embrace another identity. But there are many more Canadians—and from my experience these are a majority—who have decided to retain their citizenship. If they have made this choice should they not be allowed to enjoy other benefits of citizenship like voting? Don’t you think Canadian policy should be similar to US policy in his respect?

Canada and the US have reciprocal treaty agreements on taxes and pensions and the like and NAFTA allows and encourages labour movement between the countries so I don’t understand the relevance of where one pays taxes.

I just worked very hard for my children to become Canadian citizens. Does Canada have the collective imagination to include them in the community of citizens? Or does the fact that they live abroad mean that will always have only partial rights? It seems the majority of other nations are trying to deal with this issue but there is opposition or indifference in Canada to recognizing exaptriates.

 

[Nascar_James]

It's not that simple, Sanch. As one who had immigrated to the US many years ago, I' m quite aware of the issues surrounding the treaty agreements on taxes between the US and Canada. Firstly, if you maintain any property in Canada while an American citizen, even if you fully pay your US taxes, you will need to also pay taxes in Canada as well, treaty or no treaty. Also,for anyone who wants to head to the US and work (to make more money, business investment ..etc), and pay US taxes and then head back to Canada before that individual has been in the US for two years, there is a good chance he/she will be asked to pay additional taxes upon return to Canada.

The Canadain government uses several factors to determine residential status in canada. As I noted above, owning property in Canada classifies you a resident of Canada, even if you are an American citizen, living in the US. Other factors such as maintaining Canadian healthcare, Canadian Credit Cards, Canadian Investments ...etc) will all play a role as does voting in Canadian elections. As for Canadian investments, it is highly recommended if you have investments of any kind in Canada to consolidate all of them into one bank account and a "non-resident" bank account at that.

The bottom line for any of these issues in my book is money ... ie taxes. No one wants to pay taxes in Canada when they have already paid their full taxes in the US. You need to ensure that you maintain your non-residency status in Canada and if that involves not voting in Federal elections, then so be it.

 

[sanch]

I think we have gotten a bit adrift here. All the countries I cited in my first post have residence or non-residence status in their tax acts, codes, structure or whatever defines what the rules are for taxes. I don’t see why voting rights—nor it seems does much of the world’s population--has to be tied to residence. They are two totally separate issues.

I am assuming if you own property in Canada yet derive the majority if not all of your income from sources in the US then you pay US income tax. What you pay taxes on in Canada is the property and any income you earn from the property. The whole point of a tax treaty is to ensure double taxation such as you describe does not occur. I have an accountant and so I only know generally how this stuff works. I try not to think about taxes too much during the year.

Do you have any comment about the expatriate/voting issue that I created this thread to discuss?

 

[Nascar_James]

I am assuming if you own property in Canada yet derive the majority if not all of your income from sources in the US then you pay US income tax. What you pay taxes on in Canada is the property and any income you earn from the property. The whole point of a tax treaty is to ensure double taxation such as you describe does not occur. I have an accountant and so I only know generally how this stuff works. I try not to think about taxes too much during the year.

Do you have any comment about the expatriate/voting issue that I created this thread to discuss?

Not so, Sanch. I know from firsthand experience that you cannot own a home in Canada, even an empty home at that and get away with not paying taxes for foreign earned income.

As for the expatriate voting issue, sure if you maintain your Canadian citizenship, then you should be able to vote via absentee ballot. The US does indeed use the absentee ballot approach for US citizens residing abroad.

 

[sanch]

Thank you Nascar



My interpretation here is that home ownership is only one factor in defining resident status and it is this status that determines if you pay tax in the country. But as I am thinking of buying a second home in Montreal any info you have to the contrary would be helpful.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/nonresidents/common/residency-e.html

 

[sanch]

I just added a poll. Not sure of the protocal of announcing it.

 

[Jersay]

I was wondering, for most expatriats, who live around the world, does anyone know which lean which way and which party they would mostly likely vote for.

For example, because most European countries are 'prgoressive' if European-expatriate Canadians voted, would they vote for the Liberals or the NDP, because if they did, I am sure the Liberals would be happy to give them voting rights.

 

[Nascar_James]

Thank you Nascar



My interpretation here is that home ownership is only one factor in defining resident status and it is this status that determines if you pay tax in the country. But as I am thinking of buying a second home in Montreal any info you have to the contrary would be helpful.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/nonresidents/common/residency-e.html

Yep, as a native of Montreal I recall that the real estate market there has fluctuated substantially in the past 10 years. Buying a home then was a good investment, no doubt. Prices were really low. Now we have mainly a sellers market, however if buying for other reasons besides short term investment, then you can't go wrong. I would personally wait till another referendum (banking on the PQ winning the next provincial election) on seperation and prices to drop before buying another home.

You are correct in that owning a home is only one factor in determination of residency status for tax purposes, however I am almost certain that anyone owning a private home in Canada will need to pay Canadian taxes for foreign earned income. It is the most important factor. Other factors such as maintaining Canadian credit cards, health care cards, driver's license ...etc) are real minor in comparison. There might be exceptions to military personnel and/or those contractors working in Iraq/Afghanistan.

 

[Nascar_James]

I was wondering, for most expatriats, who live around the world, does anyone know which lean which way and which party they would mostly likely vote for.

For example, because most European countries are 'prgoressive' if European-expatriate Canadians voted, would they vote for the Liberals or the NDP, because if they did, I am sure the Liberals would be happy to give them voting rights.

Unfortunately, I am probably the last person the Liberals would give voting rights to. I moved to the US to escape the far left social climate in Canada, so my vote in the Canadian Federal election would very likely go to either the CHP or the CPC, depending which candidate were more of a social conservative.

 

[Jersay]

Just wondering because if the Liberals have any chance to boost their percentage with expat canadians, I am sure they would give them voting rights.

 

[FiveParadox]

I am opposed to granting expatriates the right to vote. Firstly, if one is not paying into the tax system in the full amount as would a citizen living within Canada, then they should not have a right to have a voice in the way in which the Canadian Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated.

Secondly, Canadians vote for Members of Parliament, one per constituency; if one does not live in Canada, then they should not be entitled to vote for a Member of Parliament. With all due respect to Nascar_James, if one moves to another country to "escape," as you put it, the social policies of a nation (even though I'm probably "über-liberal", by the way, I totally respect your opinion), one's right to affect the policies in that nation should immediately cease. Same goes if you move to another nation for any reason, really, unless you are on some sort of assignment as per the request of the Government (for example an Embassy).

Just my opinion.

 

[tracy]

Taxes aren't the issue for voting. If it was, I'd be able to vote in the US since I pay taxes here and Canadian immigrants who are not citizens would be able to vote. Voting is a right of citizenship. I have the right to vote as an absentee since I plan on returning to Canada within the 5 year time frame.

 

[FiveParadox]

Permanent Absentees?

However, should someone who never plans to return to Canada have the right to vote for the Government of Canada? If they don't plan on returning, and they don't pay taxes, and they are not a resident of Canada, why should they be able to decide how the Consolidated Revenue Fund be appropriated? If they are not living in Canada, nor paying taxes, nor planning to return, then the Government of Canada is not relevent to them.

 

[sanch]

There are very good pragmatic reasons for most countries recognizing the expatriate right to vote. Specialized and highly educated workers are in demand in the world community and countries have been forced to compete for their services. Canada, for example, is facing labour shortages in the health and teaching fields among others and having a kind of loyalty generating program such as expatriate voting in place is a way to maintain a connection with expatriates in the hope of eventually bringing them home. Canada is turning into a sending society where its professionals can easily be lured into more attractive markets in the US, Europe or Asia. Understanding the expatriate or emigrant market will be crucial in the future in fostering economic development and providing public services.

I fail to see how allowing expatriates to vote would dummy down the process. It appears the Liberals will again win the election despite all the corruption and administrative dysfunctionality. Canadians either have a very high tolerance for incompetence or they are not that well informed about who they are voting for. The reason expatriates are attractive in the world market is because of their education and skills which means as a voting block they would do enough due diligence to make intelligent choices.

It’s hard to say what the political leanings of expatriate Canadians are. I think the idea that Canadians move to countries compatible with their own philosophical biases can be easily challenged. While Canada is very pro-immigration most European countries are anti-immigration in comparison. Also the right wing dictatorships of Franco and Salazar used a corporate structure to provide many of the same services Canadians have today.

Nascar compared to New England cities or New York, Montreal real estate is relatively cheap and it’s a great city in the summertime.

 

[FiveParadox]

Government Not Relevent to Those Not Planning to Return

I fail to see how allowing expatriates to vote would dummy down the process. It appears the Liberals will again win the election despite all the corruption and administrative dysfunctionality. Canadians either have a very high tolerance for incompetence or they are not that well informed about who they are voting for. The reason expatriates are attractive in the world market is because of their education and skills which means as a voting block they would do enough due diligence to make intelligent choices.

:lol: I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but in my opinion you just made resident Canadians sound stupid. You imply that resident Canadians need the expatriate vote to compensate for our ignorance.

Canada should not have to bribe expatriates with the right to vote in order to come back to Canada. If they decide to leave, then that is their choice. They should not continue to have the right to vote if they have no intention of coming back.

If one is not living in Canada, and they do not contribute to the Consolidated Revenue Fund, and they have no intention of returning to Canada, then the Government of Canada is irrelevent to them and they should seek the right to vote in whatever nation they've immigrated to.

:!: Edit Corrected a formatting problem and added content.

 

[tracy]

Re: Permanent Absentees?

However, should someone who never plans to return to Canada have the right to vote for the Government of Canada? If they don't plan on returning, and they don't pay taxes, and they are not a resident of Canada, why should they be able to decide how the Consolidated Revenue Fund be appropriated? If they are not living in Canada, nor paying taxes, nor planning to return, then the Government of Canada is not relevent to them.

Right now they don't. I actually think they should for a few reasons. First of all, the government of Canada is not irelevant to us because we are still citizens. By definition, we have a stake in the government. You can contact the Canadian embassy or consular office anywhere in the world because as a citizen you have certain rights. My work permits are all granted on my Canadian passport. Secondly, I have met very few Canadians who actually intended to stay down here. I'll probably stay a little longer than I had originally planned because of issues that are certainly influenced by the government of Canada. Health care is the big one for me. If I can't influence at least some change in that area by voting, then how can I ever come back?

 

[FiveParadox]

But there lies a difference, tracy! You are expressing a wish to one day return to Canada, so of course, I would fully support a right to vote. However, I'm talking about people who never want to return, for whatever reason, who no longer have an interest in Canada.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: Permanent Absentees?

However, should someone who never plans to return to Canada have the right to vote for the Government of Canada? If they don't plan on returning, and they don't pay taxes, and they are not a resident of Canada, why should they be able to decide how the Consolidated Revenue Fund be appropriated? If they are not living in Canada, nor paying taxes, nor planning to return, then the Government of Canada is not relevent to them.

Right now they don't. I actually think they should for a few reasons. First of all, the government of Canada is not irelevant to us because we are still citizens. By definition, we have a stake in the government. You can contact the Canadian embassy or consular office anywhere in the world because as a citizen you have certain rights. My work permits are all granted on my Canadian passport. Secondly, I have met very few Canadians who actually intended to stay down here. I'll probably stay a little longer than I had originally planned because of issues that are certainly influenced by the government of Canada. Health care is the big one for me. If I can't influence at least some change in that area by voting, then how can I ever come back?

I think many Canadians who move to the US do it (as I did) for a better social climate in which to raise their family. Many of us want to live in a traditional climate of going to Church on Sundays and with a traditional definition of marriage so we can set a good example in raising our children. So there are indeed Canadians here (myself included) who did not move to the US mearly for work. I have met several other Canadians here who are well established and have no intention of returning to Canada.