Evolution Debate ...

Laika

Electoral Member
Apr 22, 2005
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Where The Wild Things Are
There already is a fundamentalist religio-political force in the US.

Religious leaders have stated quite plainly that their goal is a theocratic government. Look up the term "Dominionism" in a search engine; there are some great articles floating around the interweb that explain the concept better than I could ever hope.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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"The seven day creation is not literal, there are illogical and unscientific errors. The shape of the Earth is not flat. The Sun does not revolve around the Earth. The creation of light and the sun happened independent of each other, and there were 'days' before the sun was created for the Earth to rotate around. The order in which animals, plants and other elements of life appear in Genesis contradict the order that appears in the fossil record and the order of creation of the stars, the sun, etc, also contradict what we know scientifically. The logic is flawed behind the 'day of rest', an all-powerful God does not need rest. In short, the seperation of creation into a seven day period is a useless and outdated creation story riddled with errors.

Genesis is written by fallible Human beings, not God, and is proven to be a false record of creation. It also shows many symptoms of being a piecemeal, fragmented myth that has been editted and rewritten over time so that it hardly even makes internal sense. It contains no moral teachings and nothing educational. It is an irredeemable anachronism that we ever teach our children it's pointless myths and retain it as part of Chrsitianity. It should be purged."

The Adam and Eve story and the Noah's Ark story both suffer from a problem of incest. It is not possible for a species to develop from such a tiny number of people.

"Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. When a Christian next time relies on the urban myth of "Christian Family Values" then wander how they would explain to someone the big question of "What happened after the Flood?" The only moral escape route is to admit that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor. The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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This is not really about religion its about science, although creationist like to accuse scientists of using evolution as a prop to support an atheistic view. I am sure this will come as news to the thousand of educated scientists who use evolution as a tool for their research. In fact it is the fundies that assume science has an agenda, because they do. As for your question about the finch Jay, I will post something now. You do understand that creationism is debunked over and over again. It has so method, no research, no studies, no observations, no science, its just supernatural. That is not how real science works.


Finch Beak Data Sheet:


Few people have the tenacity of ecologists Peter and Rosemary Grant, willing to spend part of each year since 1973 in a tent on a tiny, barren volcanic island in the Galapagos. Even fewer would have the patience to catch, weigh, measure, and identify hundreds of small birds and record their diets of seeds.

But for the Grants, the rewards have been great: They have done nothing less than witness Darwin's theory of evolution unfold before their eyes. That would have stunned Darwin, who thought natural selection operated over vast periods of time and couldn't be observed.

In their natural laboratory, the 100-acre island called Daphne Major, the Grants and their assistants watched the struggle for survival among individuals in two species of small birds called Darwin's finches. The struggle is mainly about food -- different types of seeds -- and the availability of that food is dramatically influenced by year-to-year weather changes.

The Grants wanted to find out whether they could see the force of natural selection at work, judging by which birds survived the changing environment. For the finches, body size and the size and shape of their beaks are traits that vary in adapting to environmental niches or changes in those niches. Body and beak variation occurs randomly. The birds with the best-suited bodies and beaks for the particular environment survive and pass along the successful adaptation from one generation to another through natural selection.

Natural selection at its most powerful winnowed certain finches harshly during a severe drought in 1977. That year, the vegetation withered. Seeds of all kinds were scarce. The small, soft ones were quickly exhausted by the birds, leaving mainly large, tough seeds that the finches normally ignore. Under these drastically changing conditions, the struggle to survive favored the larger birds with deep, strong beaks for opening the hard seeds.

Smaller finches with less-powerful beaks perished.

So the birds that were the winners in the game of natural selection lived to reproduce. The big-beaked finches just happened to be the ones favored by the particular set of conditions Nature imposed that year.

Now the next step: evolution. The Grants found that the offspring of the birds that survived the 1977 drought tended to be larger, with bigger beaks. So the adaptation to a changed environment led to a larger-beaked finch population in the following generation.

Adaptation can go either way, of course. As the Grants later found, unusually rainy weather in 1984-85 resulted in more small, soft seeds on the menu and fewer of the large, tough ones. Sure enough, the birds best adapted to eat those seeds because of their smaller beaks were the ones that survived and produced the most offspring.

Evolution had cycled back the other direction.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Extrafire said:
Ah, but they are not based on supernatural explanations. The supernatural is the conclusion based on the evidence.

Once again, a misrepresentation.

No Ex, the misrepresentation is yours, again. You persist in making the same logical errors over and over again, same as Behe does. The evidence does not logically lead to the conclusion that something supernatural's involved, the only honest conclusion is that we don't know, and I don't know why you can't see that that's not the same thing. Calling it supernatural explains exactly nothing. It's not a useful hypothesis. It's not falsifiable or testable, so science quite properly rejects it as an explanation and keeps on looking.

Just because Behe and you cannot conceive of any explanation that doesn't invoke the supernatural doesn't mean there isn't one. You continue to beg the question and invoke the argument from ignorance in various forms. You'll never win the case that way.
 

Frappuccino Dibs

Electoral Member
Apr 25, 2005
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Religion is a business.

Common sense should tell us that most religious beliefs are crap, Genesis being a prime example.

It is said that the Vatican is hiding many documents that prove what they preach as completely wrong. I have no idea if any of that is true, but if the religions really were there to spread good etc. wouldn't they not be sitting on huge cash reserves due to them using this cash to do some good around the world.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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peapod said:
Jay creationists do use scienctific methods to come to their conclusions. Where are the labs jays? where is the research? where is the observation? Prove it Jay, that is science. What you are talking about is religion. I would be interested in how you would define science.


Do religious ppl need their own labs Pea?

They don't have the same luxury everyone else does, to use science done by other ppl?

The need to be treated different some how?

If they do have to have their own labs, do they get the copious amounts of government funding the exiting labs do?

There are lots of unexplained things that scientifically educated people believe may be designed, not necessarily evolved. Big deal.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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Science is not religion. Religion does not belong in science. They are two completely seperate things. And yes jay the creationist could afford labs, they don't have them because they are not interested in proving their theories. They think people are stupid they can riddle me this and riddle me that with science with no proof, I call bullshit.
One of the individuals involved in promoting this junk is Jerry Falwell. Yes he and morris have their secret partnership. Jerry Fawell is insane, that is as clear as this beautiful BC morning.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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peapod said:
Science is not religion. Religion does not belong in science. They are two completely seperate things. And yes jay the creationist could afford labs, One of the individuals involved in promoting this junk is Jerry Falwell. Yes he and morris have their secret partnership. Jerry Fawell is insane, that .


I'm sorry Pea. I don't think we see eye to eye on this.

Your simply mud slinging and missing the point.

The point is in case you’re actually interested. There are religious ppl in science. They are the colleges of other scientists, neither one of these two groups have all the facts, so they have differing opinions on the data. They are both speculation.

PS. Jerry Fawell has nothing to do with it.

"They think people are stupid they can riddle me this and riddle me that with science with no proof, I call bullshit. "

The only riddle is why do you think Jerry Fawell is who we are talking about? Who is riddling who here?

“They don't have them because they are not interested in proving their theories.”

Really or are you simply making accusations.

I'm just under the impression your simply bad mouthing religious people because you aren’t willing to entertain the idea that there are lots of religious people who like and use science. You think they stand around looking at the sky (only) and don’t read books, and reports, and engage in science themselves. I hate to break it to you, but some of these ppl have PhDs too. Am I making my point easier to see here?


"is as clear as this beautiful BC morning"

It stopped raining here finally, and I woke to a crisp, but sunny beautiful Ontario morning.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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This is just for you Jay.

Creation "Science": A Legal History

The term "scientific creationism" (and its new incarnation as "intelligent design theory") is a fairly recent label for an old ideology. Almost as soon as Darwin's Origin of Species was published, it became the focus of attack by religious fundamentalists who asserted that the Bible was the literal, revealed word of God, and was true and correct in all its proclamations. The Biblical story of Genesis, according to the fundamentalists' literal interpretation, states that the universe was created by God less than 10,000 years ago, in six 24-hour days, and that all life was created, in its present form, during a two-day period of time. Further, at some point in the recent past there occurred a world-wide flood, which killed all life on earth except for those organisms that were saved on Noah's Ark. All living organisms, the creationists assert, are direct descendants of the organisms which Noah had with him on the ark, and all human beings are direct descendants of Noah and the seven relatives he had with him on the ark. In its original form, creationism was an openly religious viewpoint, which advocated the Biblical creation story instead of the "godless atheistic" Darwinian viewpoint. The original creationists flatly asserted that there have been no new species since the day of creation and no species have been lost (except for those that drowned in the Flood).

The high point of the creationist movement came in the early decades of the 20th century, when several states (mostly in the southern "Bible Belt") passed laws making it illegal to teach evolution. In 1928, for instance, the state of Arkansas passed a law (by referendum) making it illegal to teach "the theory or doctrine that mankind ascended or descended from a lower order of animals." (Arkansas Initiated Act 1, 1928, cited in Eldredge 1982, p. 15 and LaFollette, 1983, p. 5) The Scopes trial in Tennessee in 1925 resulted when the ACLU deliberately violated such a "monkey law" (the Butler Act, which made it against the law to "teach any theory that denies the story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower order of animals" (Tennessee Legislature Act , 1925, cited in Eldredge 1982, p. 14) ) in order to test its constitutionality. Scopes was convicted of violating the state's anti-evolution law, but the conviction was overturned on a technicality. After the trial, several states, including Arkansas, Mississippi and Tennessee, kept their monkey laws on the books, but made little effort to enforce them.

In 1957, the Soviet Union launched its Sputnik satellite, shocking the United States out of its intellectual complacency and dramatically illustrating the inadequacy of science education in the US. In response to the new "space race", Congress passed a number of laws like the National Defense Foreign Languages Act and the National Defense Education Act, instituting a crash program to bring American science education up to par. One of these new programs was the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study, begun in 1959, to produce new up-to-date biology textbooks. Written by professional scientists in their fields, the BSCS texts prominently featured evolutionary theory as the foundation of all the biological sciences. Within a few years, nearly half the high schools in the country were using BSCS biology textbooks, despite the fact that anti-evolution laws were still on the books in a number of states.

In 1961, the Tennessee state legislature attempted to repeal the Butler Act, but failed after an acrimonious debate, during which one legislator equated evolutionists with communists: "Any persons or any groups who assist in any way to undermine faith in the teachings of the Bible are working in harmony with communism." (W. Dykeman and J. Stokely, "Scopes and Evolution--The Jury is Still Out", New York Times Magazine, March 12, 1971, p. 72) In 1967, teacher Gary Scott of Jacksboro, Tennessee was fired for violating the Butler Act. He fought his firing in court and won, and the Butler Act was finally ruled unconstitutional by the Federal courts.

Shortly afterwards, Arkansas biology teacher Susanne Epperson filed a court challenge to the Arkansas monkey law. When the Arkansas Supreme Court upheld the law, Epperson appealed to the US Supreme Court, which ruled in 1968 that all state monkey laws were unconstitutional, on the grounds that they served to establish a state-supported religion and eroded the separation of church and state. The anti-evolution laws, the Court decided, were nothing more than "an attempt to blot out a particular theory because of its supposed conflict with the Biblical account, taken literally." (US Supreme Court, Epperson v Arkansas, 1968)

In 1973, just six years after repealing the Scopes anti-evolution law, the Tennessee State Legislature passed a replacement for the Butler Act. The new law stated, "Any biology textbook used for teaching in the public schools, which expresses an opinion of, or relates a theory about origins or creation of man and his world shall [give] . . . an equal amount of emphasis on . . . the Genesis account in the Bible." (Public Acts of Tennessee, 1973, Chapter 377, cited in LaFollette, 1983, p. 80) Within two years, this law had also been struck down by the Federal Courts, which ruled that the Tennessee law was "a clearly defined preferential position for the Biblical version of creation as opposed to any account of the development of man based on scientific research and reasoning. For a state to seek to enforce such preference by law is to seek to accomplish the very establishment of religion which the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States squarely forbids." (US District Court, Daniel v Waters, 1975)

In response to this ruling and the earlier Epperson Supreme Court decision, the creationist movement made the tactical decision to downplay the religious aspects of creationism, and began to argue that creationism could be supported solely through scientific evidence, without any reference to God or the Bible. Thus was born "creation science"--it is nothing more than an attempt by the fundamentalists to sneak their religious views into the classroom by pretending that they are really a "science".

In 1981, the state of Arkansas passed a law, Act 590, mandating that "creation science" be given equal time in public schools with evolution. A dozen or so clergymen of differing denominations, supported by legal help from the ACLU, sued and argued that creation "science" was nothing more than fundamentalist Biblical literalism pretending to be science. Creationists from the Creation Research Society argued to the court that their viewpoint was a scientific model and not based at all on religion. Judge William Overton, after listening to both sides, was unconvinced by the creationists' arguments, and ruled that creation "science" was not a science, but was merely an attempt to introduce religious beliefs into the public school system, and was therefore unconstitutional.

Under the US Constitution, it is illegal for the Federal Government or for any state to pass a law which establishes government support for any religious view, or which serves to advance any particular religious view. The "Balanced Treatment Law", Judge Overton concluded, violated this "Establishment Clause". "The evidence is overwhelming," Overton wrote, "that both the purpose and the effect of Act 590 is the advancement of religion in the public schools." (Overton Opinion, McLean v Arkansas, 1981) Citing a number of letters and statements made by the creationists themselves, the judge concluded that "Act 590 is a religious crusade, coupled with a desire to conceal this fact". (Overton Opinion, McLean v Arkansas, 1981)


"The proof in support of creation science consisted almost entirely of efforts to discredit the theory of evolution through a rehash of data and theories which have been before the scientific community for decades. The arguments asserted by creationists are not based upon new scientific evidence or laboratory data which has been ignored by the scientific community." (Overton Opinion, McLean v Arkansas, 1981)


"The creationists' methods do not take data, weigh it against the opposing scientific data, and thereafter reach the conclusions stated in Section 4(a). Instead, they take the literal wording of the Book of Genesis and attempt to find scientific support for it." (Overton Opinion, McLean v Arkansas, 1981)

"Creation science," Overton concluded, "has no scientific merit or educational value as science . . . Since creation science is not science, the conclusion is inescapable that the only real effect of Act 590 is the advancement of religion." (Overton Opinion, McLean v Arkansas, 1981) The Arkansas monkey law was ruled unconstitutional and was thrown out.

The creationists, however, were unbowed. As the state representative who sponsored Act 590 told the newspapers, "If we lose, it won't matter that much. If the law is unconstitutional, it'll be because of something in the language that's wrong . . . . So we'll just change the wording and try again with another bill . . . We got a lot of time. Eventually we'll get one that is constitutional." (Washington Post, December 7, 1981) On the very day that Judge Overton ruled the Arkansas law unconstitutional, the Mississippi State Legislature passed a similar "Balanced Treatment" bill by a vote of 48-4.

Creationists tended to view the Arkansas ruling as a fluke, pointing out that the state Attorney General had refused to allow prominent creationist lawyers to assist in the case (prompting charges from fundamentalists that he "hadn't really been trying" to win the case). In Louisiana, where the State Legislature had passed a "Balanced Treatment" bill mandating equal classroom time for "creation science" and "evolution science", the creationists finally got their chance for an all-out attack, led by Wendell Bird, the creationist lawyer who had drafted many of the model "balanced treatment" bills. Despite their efforts, the bill was struck down in January 1985 by a Federal judge, who concluded that the law was unconstitutional "because it promotes the beliefs of some theistic sects to the detriment of others." (US District Court, Edwards v Aguilard, 1985, cited in Berra, 1990, p. 137) This ruling was upheld by a Federal Court of Appeals six months later, and the creationists appealed to the US Supreme Court.

In June 1987, the Supreme Court ruled against the creationists, concluding by a vote of 7-2 that the purpose of creation "science" was "to restructure the science curriculum to conform with a particular religious viewpoint." (US Supreme Court, Edwards v Aguilard, 1987) "The pre-eminent purpose of the Lousisiana Legislature," the Court decided, "was clearly to advance the religious viewpoint that a supernatural being created humankind." (US Supreme Court, Edwards v Aguilard, 1987)

"Because the primary purpose of the Creationism Act is to endorse a particular religious belief," the Court ruled, "the Act furthers religion in violation of the Establishment Clause. . . . The Act violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment because it seeks to employ the symbolic and financial support of government to achieve a religious purpose." (US Supreme Court, Edwards v Aguilard, 1987) As a result of this decision, all existing "Balanced Treatment" laws were thrown out.

Following this defeat, however, the creation scientists once again changed their tactics. First, they moved their focus from attempting to pass state laws mandating the teaching of creation "science" to attempting to pressure textbook committees and local school boards (where their highly organized and well-financed political machines can exert tremendous influence) into voluntarily granting equal time for "creation science. Secondly, they have changed their arguments--now, instead of arguing that creationism is a science and should therefore be taught in public schools, they have argued that creationism really is religion, but so is evolution--evolution is, they now said, really nothing more than the "religion" of "secular humanism", and therefore evolution should not be taught in public schools either. This argument has already failed in a number of Federal courts.

In 1981, a prominent creationist in California sued to have the teaching of evolution removed from the classroom on the grounds that it violated his and his children’s Constituional right to free exercise of their religion. In response, the California Superior Court ruled that teaching evolution in science class does not establish a religion or interfere with the religious rights of any citizens (Sacramento Superior Court,Segraves v California, 1981).

The issue came up again in 1994, when a California biology teacher sued the state and the local school district, claiming that teaching evolution illegally established the "religion of secular humanism". The teacher also claimed that the state and school district were conspiring against him as a result of their "group animus towards practicing Christians" (US Circuit Court, Peloza v New Capistrano School District, 1994).

The Court ruled, "Adding ‘ism’ does not change the meaning nor magically metamorphose ‘evolution’ into a religion. ‘Evolution’ and ‘evolutionism’ define a biological concept: higher life forms evolve from lower ones. The concept has nothing to do with how the universe was created; it has nothing to do with whether or not there is a divine Creator (who did or did not create the universe or did or did not plan evolution as part of a divine scheme). " (US Circuit Court, Peloza v New Capistrano School District, 1994)

The court rather sardonically notes that, "On a motion to dismiss we are required to read the complaint charitably, to take all well-pleaded facts as true, and to assume that all general allegations embrace whatever specific facts might be necessary to support them. Charitably read, Peloza's complaint at most makes this claim: the school district's actions establish a state-supported religion of evolutionism, or more generally of ‘secular humanism.’ According to Peloza's complaint, all persons must adhere to one of two religious belief systems concerning ‘the origins of life and of the universe:’ evolutionism, or creationism. Thus, the school district, in teaching evolutionism, is establishing a state-supported ‘religion.’ We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or secular humanism are ‘religions’ for Establishment Clause purposes. Indeed, both the dictionary definition of religion and the clear weight of the caselaw are to the contrary." (US Circuit Court, Peloza v New Capistrano School District, 1994)

"Evolutionist theory is not a religion," the Court ruled. "Plaintiff's assertions that the teaching of evolution would be a violation of the Establishment Clause is unfounded." (US Circuit Court, Peloza v New Capistrano School District, 1994) The court concluded that Peloza’s case was "frivolous" and ordered him to compensate the state and school board for costs and attorney fees.

One of the newest creationist tactics has been to lobby state texbook committees to either drop mention of evolutionary biology altogether, or to add a "disclaimer" to their texts opining that evolution is "just a theory". On January 16, 1998, for instance, the Washington State Senate introduced a bill requiring that all science textbooks contain a printed disclaimer stating that evolution is only a "theory", and listing a series of inaccurate criticisms of evolution. The bill is a virtual word-for-word copy of an earlier proposal passed by the Alabama state Board of Education in November, 1995. The Washington bill reads:

"All science textbooks purchased with state moneys must have the following notice placed prominently in them.


A MESSAGE FROM THE WASHINGTON STATE LEGISLATURE


This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals, and humans.

No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact.

The word "evolution" may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths, for example, may "evolve" into gray moths.) This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living thing to another, such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things.

"There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook, including:

- Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record (known as the "Cambrian Explosion")?

- Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record for a long time?

- Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record?

- How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of "Instructions" for building a living body?"

In April 1994, the Tangipahoa School Board, in Lousiana, passed a policy mandating that a disclaimer be presented before any discussion of evolutionary theory. The policy states:


"Whenever, in classes of elementary or high school, the scientific theory of evolution is to be presented, whether from textbook, workbook, pamphlet, other written material, or oral presentation, the following statement shall be quoted immediately before the unit of study begins as a disclaimer from endorsement of such theory.

"It is hereby recognized by the Tangipahoa Board of Education, that the lesson to be presented, regarding the origin of life and matter, is known as the Scientific Theory of Evolution and should be presented to inform students of the scientific concept and not intended to influence or dissuade the Biblical version of Creation or any other concept.

"It is further recognized by the Board of Education that it is the basic right and privilege of each student to form his/her own opinion and maintain beliefs taught by parents on this very important matter of the origin of life and matter. Students are urged to exercise critical thinking and gather all information possible and closely examine each alternative toward forming an opinion." (US Circuit Court, Freiler v Tangipahoa Board of Ed, 1999)


A number of parents in the school district filed suit. In the Freiler v Tangipahoa Board of Education case, the Federal District judge ruled that the disclaimer was an unconstitutional establishment of religion. This decision was upheld on appeal by the Federal Circuit Court. In its opinion upholding the appeal, the Circuit Court writes, "We conclude that the primary effect of the disclaimer is to protect and maintain a particular religious viewpoint, namely belief in the Biblical version of creation," and noted that the stated purpose of the disclaimer, to "exercise critical thinking", was "a sham" (US Circuit Court, Freiler v Tangipahoa Board of Ed, 1999) .


"In reaching this conclusion, we rely on the interplay of three factors: (1) the juxtaposition of the disavowal of endorsement of evolution with an urging that students contemplate alternative theories of the origin of life; (2) the reminder that students have the right to maintain beliefs taught by their parents regarding the origin of life; and (3) the ‘Biblical version of Creation’ as the only alternative theory explicitly referenced in the disclaimer." (US Circuit Court, Freiler v Tangipahoa Board of Ed 1999) In June 2000, the US Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal of the Freiler case and let the Circuit Court's ruling stand.


In February 2000, the Attorney General of Oklahoma ruled that the State Education Board there had no legal authority to require biology textbooks to carry a disclaimer similar to the ones in Washington and Louisiana. He also concluded that the Board had violated state law by adopting the proposed disclaimer without previous public notice or discussion. Just a few weeks later, the Board voted to reject a total of five biology textbooks because they discussed evolution.


The Freiler ruling made it likely that all the remaining "disclaimers" would also be rejected by the Courts on Constitutional grounds. And indeed, the creationists lost yet another "disclaimer" case in January 2005, when a Federal judge in Georgia ruled that such disclaimers violated the separation of church and state. "Due to the manner in which the sticker refers to evolution as a theory, the sticker also has the effect of undermining evolution education to the benefit of those Cobb County citizens who would prefer that students maintain their religious beliefs regarding the origin of life," Judge Clarence Cooper wrote in his ruling. "The distinction of evolution as a theory rather than a fact is the distinction that religiously motivated individuals have specifically asked school boards to make in the most recent anti-evolution movement, and that was exactly what parents in Cobb County did in this case," he ruled. "The school board has effectively improperly entangled itself with religion by appearing to take a position," Cooper concluded. "Therefore, the sticker must be removed from all of the textbooks into which it has been placed." (Selman v Cobb County School District, US District Court, January 2005) Just as had creation "scientists" at the time of their loss in Arkansas, the IDers imemdiately began whining that they had only lost because the lawyer for the county had presented "an incompetent defense" of the law. ("Incompetent Defense by Cobb County Attorney May Have Caused School District Loss", Discovery Institute Website, January 13, 2005)

However, despite their steady string of losses regarding "disclaimer stickers", the creationist movement at the same time has been pursuing an alternative strategy.

In 2001, the Discovery Institute, which argues in favor of a new form of creationism known as "intelligent design theory", took the anti-evolution issue to the Federal level. "Intelligent design theory" is a watered-down version of creationism which attempted to avoid falling afoul of Constitutional conflicts by removing nearly all of the previously accepted tenets of creationism. Rather than a "creator", ID "theory" speaks of an un-named "intelligent designer", which they make no effort to identify. In order to avoid identification with Genesis or other religious beliefs, "intelligent design theory" makes no statements about the age of the earth, or any of the particular actions which the "intelligent designer" may or may not have done. By limiting ID "theory" to vague assertions and inferences, advocates hope to avoid identifying their "scientific theory" with religion, and thus to avoid the Constitutional issues that had doomed all of the previous anti-evolution efforts.

The "intelligent design" movement got its first legal test in June 2001, when the Senate was debating the Elementary and Secondary Education Act Authorization Bill (later renamed the "No Child Left Behind" Act). During the debate, Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum introduced an amendment that had been partially written by Discovery Institute lawyer Phillip Johnson (and based on a law journal article written by Discovery Institute activist David DeWolf). The Santorum Amendment, introduced as a "sense of the Senate" resolution, read:


"It is the sense of the Senate that (1) good science education should prepare students to distinguish the data or testable theories of science from philosophical or religious claims that are made in the name of science; and (2) where biological evolution is taught, the curriculum should help students to understand why the subject generates so much continuing controversy, and should prepare the students to be informed participants in public discussions regarding the subject."


Because the House version of the No Child Left Behind Act did not include any corresponding version of the Santorum Amendment, a House/Senate Conference Committee was required to reach agreement on a joint bill to be agreed upon by boht chambers of Congress. After a flood of letters and testimony from prominent science and education groups pointed out that the Santorum amendment was nothing but a thinly veiled excuse for teaching "intelligent design theory" in classrooms, the conference committee dropped the amendment, noting, in their Conference Report, "The conferees recognize that a quality science education should prepare students to distinguish the data and testable theories of science from religious or philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society." When the final version of the No Child Left Behind bill was passed by both the House and the Senate, it did not contain any portion of the Santorum Amendment.


Creationists/IDers and their supporters have, however, attempted to claim that the No Child Left Behind bill not only permits but actually requires schools to teach "intelligent design theory". Santorum himself, for instance, wrote in March 2002, "At the beginning of the year, President Bush signed into law the "No Child Left Behind" bill. The new law includes a science education provision where Congress states that "where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist. If the Education Board of Ohio does not include intelligent design in the new teaching standards, many students will be denied a first-rate science education." (Washington Times, March 14, 2002, cited in "ID-Activists-Guide", NCSE website). Two Ohio Congressmen also claimed, "The Santorum language is now part of the law". (Washington Times, March 20, 2002, cited in "ID-Activists-Guide"). Neither of these claims, of course, are true --- the Santorum language was dropped from the bill in committee, and the only time it is mentioned is in the accompanying Conference Report, which is not a part of the bill and has no legal force or authority.


The topic of the Santorum Amendment was brought up in Ohio as the result of another legal effort by the Discovery Institute to force "intelligent design theory" into school classrooms. In early 2002, the state of Ohio was carrying out a review of its statewide science curriculum, when chemist Robert Lattimer objected to the prominence of evolution in the science standards, and lobbied for inclusion of "intelligent design theory" as a "scientific alternative" to evolution. The effort attracted the attention of the Discovery Institute, which unleashed all its lobbying abilitites in an effort to push ID "theory" into the Ohio science standards. Friendly legislators introduced a bill into the state House of Representatives which would "require that whenever an explanation for the origins of life and its diversity is included in the instructional program of a school district or educational service center the instructional program shall encourage the presentation of scientific evidence objectively and disclose the historical nature of origins of life science and any material assumptions on which the explanation is based."


The bill read:


"Sec. 3313.6013. It is the intent of the general assembly that to enhance the effectiveness of science education and to promote academic freedom and the neutrality of state government with respect to teachings that touch religious and nonreligious beliefs, it is necessary and desirable that "origins science," which seeks to explain the origins of life and its diversity, be conducted and taught objectively and without religious, naturalistic, or philosophic bias or assumption. To further this intent, the instructional program provided by any school district or educational service center shall do all of the following:

(A) Encourage the presentation of scientific evidence regarding the origins of life and its diversity objectively and without religious, naturalistic, or philosophic bias or assumption;

(B) Require that whenever explanations regarding the origins of life are presented, appropriate explanation and disclosure shall be provided regarding the historical nature of origins science and the use of any material assumption which may have provided a basis for the explanation being presented;

(C) Encourage the development of curriculum that will help students think critically, understand the full range of scientific views that exist regarding the origins of life, and understand why origins science may generate controversy." (Ohio House Bill 481)


The Discovery Institute brought out all its big guns in Ohio, including such luminaries as Johnson and Dembski, but in the end, the legislative bills all failed. Not only did the Ohio board not include "intelligent design theory" in its standards, but it specifically excluded it by name. Although students under the new science standards should be able to "describe how scientists continue to investigate and critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory", the board noted, "The intent of this indicator does not mandate the teaching or testing of Intelligent Design." (Ohio Board of Education, December 10, 2002)


"Intelligent design" advocates, however, seized on the words "critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory", and immediately re-introduced "intelligent design theory" through the back door, using a new strategy that has become known as "teach the controversy". Now, instead of attempting to push "intelligent design theory" into schools, the Discovery Institute and its supporters have been forced to retreat to the much weaker notion of teaching the alleged "scientific problems" with evolution instead. The new strategy drops any mention of "intellgient design", and instead attempts to argue that somehow, somewhere, something must be wrong with evolution.

As part of the new strategy, members of the Ohio Board of Education proposed a "model lesson plan" that was largely written by Discovery Institute members and supporters, entitled "Critical Analysis of Evolution". The model lesson pointed out the same supposed "scientific problems with evolution" that the Discovery Institute had been preaching for years. Included in the model lesson plan were "goals" such as:


"Describe one piece of evidence used to challenge evolution and explain why it is important.

Compare and contrast the supporting and challenging information regarding the aspect of evolution you studied.

Evaluate the scientific data supporting and challenging areas of evolution in light of the scientific method. In other words, is the data that is used to support or challenge evolution consistent or inconsistent with the scientific method? Are there any limitations? (NOTE: steps of scientific method: Observation, hypothesis, test, retest and conclusion)"


The model lesson plan included links to several Internet websites from the Discovery Institute and other supporters of intelligent design "theory". These websites were later dropped after heavy criticism. Also dropped was a direct reference to the anti-evolution book "Icons of Evolution", written by Discovery Institute member Jonathan Wells.


In March 2003, the Board passed a modified version of the lesson plan which, while erasing all of the references to intelligent design "theory", nevertheless accepted most of the Discovery Institute's "teach the controversy" strategy and included many of the supposed "scientific criticisms of evolution" that have been trotted out for years by the Discovery Institute and other creationists. Several court challenges are already pending to the Ohio lesson plan.


The legal history of creation "science", therefore, has been remarkably consistent --- the creation "scientists" have lost every single Federal court case they have ever been involved with. In every instance where creation "scientists" or intelligent design "theorists" have attempted to argue that their viewpoints are "science" and should be taught in schools, or that evolution is not science and should not be taught in schools, their claim has been rejected by the courts -- soundly, starkly, and unequivocably.

And Jerry Fawell is indeed insane! His reasoning for the 911 attacks alone speak to his sanity.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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pumpkin pie bungalow
Also Jay, using that religion bashing card is a copout. If religious fundmentalists expect impose their morality on to me, through the government than I have every right to ask any question I want, and come to my own conclusions. Who is trying to impose morality here? Its the fundmentalists. The agenda is pretty clear to me, and its really laughable if it was not just plain crazy. The teaching of evolution has caused the moral decay of society, and if we undermine it and get rid of it by any means possible, which includes lies and deceit. And this will fix the decay of society, I think not, because the teaching of evolution has nothing to do with it. And why is it, that people who employ the following tatics I will list below, in any postion to preach to me. Their actions speak for themselves, I don't have to bash them.



Creationist Misquotes


As we will see throughout this website, the entire creationist "case" is built on intellectual dishonesty. While a few of the creationist blunders can charitably be assumed to be honest mistakes, misunderstandings or misinterpterations brought about by their almost complete lack of scientific understanding, many such instances cannot be viewed as anything other than deliberate, calculating attempts to deceive their readers.

The most common tactic seen from creationists is the use of "quotations" from "evolutionists" which, they say, "prove" that evolutionary theory has insurmountable problems. In fact, the creationists even have their own Little Red Quote Book, the Revised Quote Book (Creation Science Foundation, Australia, 1990), which lists page after page of "quotations".

Looking at these quotes more closely, however, shows that in every instance, the writers of the quoted pieces are not at all saying what the creationists would like us to believe they are saying.

Several examples of creationist misquoting come from the anti-evolution booklet Life: How Did It Get Here? by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Watchtower Tract and Bible Society (WTBS), 1985). The booklet says of evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, referring to his book The Selfish Gene, "At this point a reader may begin to understand Dawkins' comment in the preface to his book: "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction." (WTBS, 1985, p. 39). The implication here is that Dawkins is "admitting" that his evolutionary theories are uncertain and should be treated as "fiction". In context, though, we can see that Dawkins is saying no such thing at all: "This book should be read as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, "stranger than fiction" expresses exactly how I feel about the truth. (Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, p.ix)

In another page, the Jehovah’s Witness Life booklet quotes biologist Richard Lewontin as saying: ""Zoologist Richard Lewontin said that organisms 'appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.' He views them as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' " (WTBS, p. 143). The implication here is that Lewontin himself believes that life was intelligently designed by a "Supreme Designer". In fact, Lewontin believes no such thing. As he explained in a letter to a creationist publication debunking the misquote, "The point of my article, 'Adaptation' in Scientific American, from which these snippets were lifted, was precisely that the 'perfection of organisms' is often illusory and that any attempt to describe organisms as perfectly adapted is destined for serious contradictions. Moreover, the appearance of careful and artful design was taken in the nineteenth century before Darwin as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' The past tense of my article ('It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment ... that was the chief evidence of Supreme Designer') has been conveniently dropped by creationist Parker in his attempt to pass off this ancient doctrine as modern science." (Lewontin, "Misquoted Scientists Respond," Creation/Evolution VI, Fall 1981, p. 35) Parker’s selective editing, repeated later by the Witnesses in their tract, can only be viewed as a deliberate attempt to distort Lewontin’s meaning and make him say what creationists would like to hear him say.

Another prominent biologist who has been the victim of creationist misquotes and dishonesty is Dr Colin Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History. In a private letter to creationist Luther Sunderland, who had asked Patterson why no transitional fossils were illustrated in his book, Patterson responded: "I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. . .I will lay it on the line, There is not one such fossil for which one might make a watertight argument." (Creation Science Foundation, Revised Quote Book, 1990). Since then, creationists in both the US and Australia have widely circulated this quote, contending that Patterson is "admitting that there aren’t any transitional fossils".

This is absurd on the face of it, since Patterson’s book contains several descriptions of different transitional fossils: "In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes." (Patterson, 1978, p. 130)

However, when one researcher wrote to Patterson to ask about the much-repeated quote, Patterson responded with yet another example of creationist selective editing: "The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes. The passage quoted continues ‘... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question.’ " (Lionel Theunissen, "Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two 'Cites', 1997) Thus, it becomes apparent from the full context that Patterson was referring to the impossibility of establishing direct lines of descent from fossils, a position fully in keeping with his cladistic outlook. Patterson was not saying there were no fossil transitions, and Sunderland’s attempt to claim otherwise can only be viewed as an effort at deception.

A final example of distortion and misquoting from the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Life quotes writer Francis Hitching as saying "For all its acceptance in the scientific world as the great unifying principle of biology, Darwinism, after a century and a quarter, is in a surprising amount of trouble." (WTBS, p. 15) The implication here is that evolutionary theory is being rejected by biologists. However, the Witnesses neglect to quote the very next sentence in Hitching’s book, which goes on to say: "Evolution and Darwinism are often taken to mean the same thing. But they don't. Evolution of life over a very long period of time is a fact, if we are to believe evidence gathered during the last two centuries from geology, paleontology, molecular biology and many other scientific disciplines. Despite the many believers in Divine creation who dispute this ..., the probability that evolution has occurred approaches certainty in scientific terms." (Hitching, p. 4) The Witnesses’ claim that Hitching concludes that evolution is "in trouble" is simply untrue. Hitching himself, in a passage that was conveniently edited out by the authors of Life, explicitly states that evolution is "a fact" and "approaches certainty in scientific terms". What is being questioned, Hitching writes, is the prevelance of the Darwinian mechanism in evolution, not the validity of evolution itself.

The creationist fascination with spitting out long lines of out-dated and out-of-context quotes is directly tied with their literalistic Biblical outlook. Since in their interminable arguments with each other over religious doctrines and Biblical interpretations, their usual method of argument is to quote Bible verses at each other, they apparently think that it is a valid scientific argument to quote this or that person as saying this or that, and therefore somehow in this manner invalidate the data and evidence in favor of the evolution of life. The whole strategy is one of "argument from authority"----"X must be true because Mr Y says it’s true". While this method might (or might not) make sense within the context of fundamentalist arguments over which particular interpretation of this or that Bible verse is authoritative, it has no use in science, which depends solely on data and evidence, not on the say-so of this or that prominent scientist. Thus scientists, quite apart from all the distortions and inaccuracies, reject all of the creationists’ "quotes" as irrelevant, no doubt leaving the fundamentalists completely baffled as to why nobody seems to be impressed by all their quotations from authorities.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
peapod said:
This is not really about religion its about science, although creationist like to accuse scientists of using evolution as a prop to support an atheistic view. I am sure this will come as news to the thousand of educated scientists who use evolution as a tool for their research. In fact it is the fundies that assume science has an agenda, because they do. As for your question about the finch Jay, I will post something now. You do understand that creationism is debunked over and over again. It has so method, no research, no studies, no observations, no science, its just supernatural. That is not how real science works.


Finch Beak Data Sheet:


Few people have the tenacity of ecologists Peter and Rosemary Grant, willing to spend part of each year since 1973 in a tent on a tiny, barren volcanic island in the Galapagos. Even fewer would have the patience to catch, weigh, measure, and identify hundreds of small birds and record their diets of seeds.

But for the Grants, the rewards have been great: They have done nothing less than witness Darwin's theory of evolution unfold before their eyes. That would have stunned Darwin, who thought natural selection operated over vast periods of time and couldn't be observed.

In their natural laboratory, the 100-acre island called Daphne Major, the Grants and their assistants watched the struggle for survival among individuals in two species of small birds called Darwin's finches. The struggle is mainly about food -- different types of seeds -- and the availability of that food is dramatically influenced by year-to-year weather changes.

The Grants wanted to find out whether they could see the force of natural selection at work, judging by which birds survived the changing environment. For the finches, body size and the size and shape of their beaks are traits that vary in adapting to environmental niches or changes in those niches. Body and beak variation occurs randomly. The birds with the best-suited bodies and beaks for the particular environment survive and pass along the successful adaptation from one generation to another through natural selection.

Natural selection at its most powerful winnowed certain finches harshly during a severe drought in 1977. That year, the vegetation withered. Seeds of all kinds were scarce. The small, soft ones were quickly exhausted by the birds, leaving mainly large, tough seeds that the finches normally ignore. Under these drastically changing conditions, the struggle to survive favored the larger birds with deep, strong beaks for opening the hard seeds.

Smaller finches with less-powerful beaks perished.

So the birds that were the winners in the game of natural selection lived to reproduce. The big-beaked finches just happened to be the ones favored by the particular set of conditions Nature imposed that year.

Now the next step: evolution. The Grants found that the offspring of the birds that survived the 1977 drought tended to be larger, with bigger beaks. So the adaptation to a changed environment led to a larger-beaked finch population in the following generation.

Adaptation can go either way, of course. As the Grants later found, unusually rainy weather in 1984-85 resulted in more small, soft seeds on the menu and fewer of the large, tough ones. Sure enough, the birds best adapted to eat those seeds because of their smaller beaks were the ones that survived and produced the most offspring.

Evolution had cycled back the other direction.


Thanks Pea, but I don’t need an explanation on the finches, I was looking for feed back on the Q & A I posted. I used the Finches because I thought you would be familiar with them since Darwin used them in his observations.

You stated……


Jay said:
peapod said:
Science answers the how not the why.


Q: Why are there different kinds of Finches, within a local environment, like the Galapagos Islands?

A: Natural selection, and environmental adaptation.


Doesn't that answer why and how?

So in other words.....doesn't this Q & A suggest that you’re wrong? Science does answer both questions, not just the how?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
peapod said:
Yes Jerry falwell has something to do with it. I suggest you research the money trail of the creationists in the united states.

I will leave following Jerry Falwell to you, your the only one who appears to be interestred in him.

I have other things, like science MP3s I down loaded, and science documentaries I down loaded to follow.

Say hi to Jerry for me though.
 

snoproblem

Nominee Member
Mar 18, 2005
59
0
6
Round and round we go...

I'm beginning to understand why the Puritans had to haul ass out of England, if their ideological descendants are any way similar. :roll:

"Puritan"... the word itself reeks of smugness and sanctimony.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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48
The Evil Empire
Bust out your calculators everyone (you also need pencil and paper, unless you can compute to the 31st degree on your calculator), this will keep you busy for a bit. Out of curiosity, I did some math myself, took me 3 hours, try and find where the computations are incorrect. :wink:


By REV. WILLIAM A. WILLIAMS, New Jersey, USA

THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD

The population of the world, based upon the Berlin census reports of 1922, was found to be 1,804,187,000. The human race must double itself 30.75 times to make this number. This result may be approximately ascertained by the following computations:
At the beginning of the first period of doubling there would just be two human beings; the second, 4; the third, 8; the fourth, 16; the tenth, 1024; the twentieth 1,048,576, the thirtieth, 1,073,741,824; and the thirty-first, 2,147,483,648. In other words, if we raise two to the thirtieth power, we have 1,073,741,824; or to the thirty-first power, 2,147,483,648 Therefore, it is evident even to the school boy, that, to have the present population of the globe, the net population must be doubled more than thirty times and less than thirty-one times. By logarithms, we find it to be 30.75 times. After all allowances are made for natural deaths, wars, catastrophes, and losses of all kinds, if the human race would double its numbers 30.75 times, we would have the present population of the globe.
Now, according to the chronology of Hales, based on the Septuagint text, 5077 years have elapsed since the flood, and 5177 years since the ancestors of mankind numbered only two, Noah and his wife. By dividing 5177 by 30.75, we find it requires an average of 168.3 years for the human race to double its numbers, in order to make the present population. This is a reasonable average length of time.
Moreover, it is singularly confirmed by the number of Jews, or descendants of Jacob. According to Hales, 3850 years have passed since the marriage of Jacob. By the same method of calculation as above, the Jews, who, according to the Jewish yearbook for 1922, number 15,393, 815, must have doubled their numbers 23.8758 times, or once every 161.251 years. The whole human race, therefore, on an average has doubled its numbers every 168.3 years; and the Jews, every 161.251 years. What a marvelous agreement! We would not expect the figure to be exactly the same nor be greatly surprised if one period were twice the other. But their correspondence singularly corroborates the age of the human race and of the Jewish people, as gleaned from the word of God by the most proficient chronologists. If the human race is 2,000,000 years old, the period of doubling would be 65,040 years, or 402 times that of the Jews, which, of course, is unthinkable.
While the period of doubling may vary slightly in different ages, yet there are few things so stable and certain as general average, where large numbers and many years are considered, as in the present case. No life insurance company, acting on general average statistics, ever failed on that account. The Jews and the whole human race have lived together the same thirty-eight centuries with very little intermarriage, and are affected by similar advantages and disadvantages, making the comparison remarkably fair.
Also, the 25,000,000 descendants of Abraham must have doubled their numbers every 162.275 years, during the 3,988 years since the birth of his son Ishmael. These periods of doubling which tally so closely, 168.3 years for the whole race, 161.251 for the Jews, and 162.275 years for the descendants of Abraham, cannot be a mere coincidence, but are a demonstration against the great age of man required by evolution, and in favor of the 5,177 years since Noah. None of the other various chronologies would make any material difference in these calculations. The correspondence of these figures, 168.3, 161.251 and 162.275 is so remarkable that it must bring the conviction to every serious student that the flood destroyed mankind and Noah became the head of the race.
Now the evolutionists claim that the human race is 2,000,000 years old. There is no good reason for believing that, during all these years the developing dominant species would not increase as rapidly as the Jews, or the human race in historic times, especially since the restraints of civilization and marriage did not exist. But let us generously suppose that these remote ancestors, beginning with one pair, doubled their numbers in 1612.51 years one-tenth as rapidly as the Jews, or 1240 times in 2,000,000 years. If we raise 2 to the 1240th power, the result is 18,932,139,737,991 with 360 figures following. The population of the world, therefore, would have been 18,932,139,737,991 decillion, decillion, decillion. decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion, decillion; or 18,932,139,737,991 vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion, vigintillion.
Or, let us suppose that man, the dominant species, originated from a single pair, only 100,000 years ago, the shortest period suggested by any evolutionist (and much too short for evolution) and that the population doubled in 1612.51 years, one-tenth the Jewish rate of net increase, a most generous estimate. The present population of the globe should be 4,660,210,253,138,204,300 or 2,527,570,733 for every man, woman and child! In these calculations, we have made greater allowances than any self-respecting evolutionist could ask without blushing. And yet withal, it is as clear as the light of day that the ancestors of man could not possibly have lived 2,000,000 or 1,000,000 or 100,000 years ago, or even 10,000 years ago; for if the population had increased at the Jewish rate for 10,000 years, it would be more than two billion times as great as it is. No guess that ever was made, or ever can be made, much in excess of 5177 years, can possibly stand as the age of man. The evolutionist cannot sidestep this argument by a new guess. Q. E. D.
All these computations have been made upon the supposition that the human race sprang from one pair. If from many in the distant past, as the evolutionists assert, these bewildering figures must be enormously increased.
Yet we are gravely told that evolution is "science". It is the wildest guess ever made to support an impossible theory.
That their guesses can not possibly be correct, is proven also by approaching the subject from another angle. If the human race is 2,000,000 years old, and must double its numbers 30.75 times to make the present population, it is plain that each period for doubling would be 65,040 years, since 2,000,000 divided by 30.75 is equals 65,040. At that rate, there would be fewer than four Jews! If we suppose the race to have sprung from one pair 100,000 years ago, it would take 3252 years to double the population. At this rate, there would be five Jews!
Do we need any other demonstration that the evolution of man is an absurdity and an impossibility? If the evolutionists endeavor to show that man may have descended from the brute, the population of the world conclusively shows that MAN CERTAINLY DID NOT DESCEND FROM THE BRUTE. If they ever succeed in showing that all Species of animals may have been derived from one primordial germ, it is impossible that man so came. He was created as the Bible declares, by the Almighty Power of God.
The testimony of all the experts in the famous Scopes trial in Tennessee (who escaped cross-examination) was to the effect that evolution was in harmony with some facts and therefore possibly true. The above mathematical calculations prove that the evolution of man was certainly not true. They fail to make their case even if we grant their claims. These figures prove the Bible story, and scrap every guess of the great age and the brute origin of man. It will be observed that the above calculations point to the unity of the race in the days of Noah, 5177 years ago, rather than in the days of Adam 7333 years ago, according to Hale's chronology. If the race increased at the Jewish rate, not over 16,384 perished by the Flood, fewer than by many a modern catastrophe. This most merciful providence of God started the race anew with a righteous head.
Now, if there had been no flood to destroy the human race, then the descendants of Adam, in the 7333 years would have been 16,384 times the 1,804,187,000, or 29,559,799,808,000; or computed at the Jewish rate of net increase for 7333 years since Adam, the population would have been still greater, or 35,184,372,088,832. These calculations are imperfect accord with the Scripture story of the special creation of man, and the destruction of the race by a flood. Had it not been for the flood, the earth could not have sustained the descendants of Adam. Is not this a demonstration, decisive and final?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
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The flaw is the assumption that the growth rate's been constant. It's not, it's a geometric progression, for which an average is meaningless.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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REV. WILLIAM A. WILLIAMS, New Jersey, USA can also be found at talkorgins.org...his arguments are debunked there also. This has nothing to do with science, which is collecting data and evidence. It is not about religion. It does not belong in the realm of science. And it has nothing whats so ever to do with the "moral decay of society" or fornication either.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
If folks want to believe in the many theories of creationism and reject evolution, that's fine. I mean who really cares. It doesn't mean humans will stop evolving.

Some people will argue that it is the principal of teaching something that is wrong, but folks will believe and think the way they think is right, regardless of what is taught.

I personally like to base my views on science, I personally haven't read a creationist theory with enough proof to skew me otherwise.