Evolution Debate ...

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Further to your post planet....which is just a waste of my time.

Atheism is not a religion no more than theism is. Theism is having a belief in a deity and atheism is not having a belief in a deity (which assumes plural also). Evolution is not propaganda. It is a theory that is updated and scrutinized just like every other theory. It doesn't disprove any god, nor does it try to. It simply tries to make since of what data that is there. If you disagree with it, study science and the data that has been acquired, do some tests, and come up with your own hypothesis based on the scientific principle. The argument you seem to be trying to give above does nothing to disprove the theory. With the advent of DNA research we know more about our ancestors than ever before, so it's not a surprise that they know more about our differences with other species. As more data comes out you adapt the theory, that's how science works. Does religion do the same? Wasn't Christianity reluctant to even admit that the Earth was indeed round? Or that the Earth was not the center of the Universe? For science, sometimes we have to wait for the older generation to die out for the newer hypothesis to be taken seriously, but some people don't like change. If science works like it's supposed to, then it will change with every new proven data. If religion works like it's supposed to, then we'd still be thinking the world was flat.

This must be the site where you do your research from :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/humans_chimps_same_genus.shtml
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Planet, I showed your post to some other people. They have their own take on what you wrote. I know you will want to read it, so here it is.


The 5% difference is counting indels. Indels is short for insertions & deletions of base pairs. The study they are referring to was done by Roy Britten and appeared in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in October of 2002. Here is the abstract:

Quote:
Five Chimpanzee bacterial artificial chromosome (BAC) sequences (described in GenBank) have been compared with the best matching regions of the human genome sequence to assay the amount and kind of DNA divergence. The conclusion is the old saw that we share 98.5% of our DNA sequence with chimpanzee is probably in error. For this sample, a better estimate would be that 95% of the base pairs are exactly shared between chimpanzee and human DNA. In this sample of 779 kb, the divergence due to base substitution is 1.4%, and there is an additional 3.4% difference due to the presence of indels. The gaps in alignment are present in about equal amounts in the chimp and human sequences. They occur equally in repeated and nonrepeated sequences, as detected by REPEATMASKER (http://ftp.genome.washington.edu/RM/RepeatMasker.html).


However, Britten goes on to state in his discussion:

Quote:
However, it now seems almost certain that chimp or bonobo is our nearest relative.

One interesting observation is that the sequence divergence between chimp and human is quite large, in excess of 20% for a few regions. Some of the larger gaps are broken by regions within them that align with appropriate segments of the other species' DNA sequence but only have distant similarity. These observations suggest that complex processes, presumably involving repeated sequences and possible conversion events, may occur that will require detailed study to understand. The uncertainty in the estimate of 3.4% indels on Table 1 cannot be directly evaluated. In the first place, the sample of 779 kb is small, and the variation between the different BACs is large. Further, there may be gaps that were missed as part of chimpanzee BAC sequences that could not be aligned with the human genome. Nevertheless, the conclusion is clear that comparison of the DNA sequences of closely related species reflects many events of insertion and deletion. It is the result of a major evolutionary process.


Now, basically the assertion that because of the measure of variation including exact indels is splitting hairs. This doesn't change the fact that we are very closely related to chimps. It gives insight into what makes the differences between us. Indels are mutations, they are the very thing that gives evolution the diversity in species that selection works off of.

As Britten, Rowen, Williams, and Cameron reported in PNAS in April of 2003:

Quote:
Human genetic evidence suggests that indels are a major source of gene defects. In one example gene defects affecting the nervous system showed a majority that were due to indels. Many data suggest that indels are a significant source of evolutionary change.


The indels are why we are different from chimps. It is the cumulative mutantions over the millions of years that made us Homo sapiens. These cumulations over the millenia are since we diverged with the chimp line from our common ancestor and in no way refutes that we are closely related to chimps at all.

Yet, in June of 2003 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, Wildman, Uddin, Liu, Grossman and Goodman tested the repeatability of Britten's studies:

Quote:
A recent study has proposed that when all alignment positions in indels are counted as if a nucleotide substitution had occurred at each of these indel positions, humans and chimpanzees are only 95% similar at the DNA level. We analyzed our data in a similar manner and found that the total coding divergence between humans and chimpanzees increased from 0.9% to 1.14%. Thus, in the >90,000 coding bases examined between humans and chimpanzees, the percent of sequence difference due to indels is much less within coding regions than for average genomic DNA. Humans and chimpanzees are more similar to each other from estimates mad from protein-encoding DNA than from DNA samples in which non-coding DNA predominates. Clearly, any indel that alters the reading frame of a gene will result in that gene coding for a completely different set of amino acid residues from the indel to the end of the coding sequence. Such mutations are very likely to be detrimental and selected against by purifying selection.

Nonsynonymous change is less common than synonymous change. Human and chimpanzee divergence is <0.6% at the nonsynonymous level but 1.6% at the synonymous level. This result suggests that when all sites are considered the purifying form of natural selection acts on nonsynonymous sites but not on (or not nearly as much on) synonymous sites. Additionally, the amount of nonsynonymous change was only slightly larger on the terminal human branch than on the terminal chimpanzee branch.


So basically, they are both correct. However, Britten's study focused only on a certain part of the DNA genome with such specific focus you will get results only applicable to that area. A larger perspective can show a different story when taking into consideration the larger genome which is what this study showed. Even Britten admitted to his small sample and with his second study with a larger sample, he still focused on that certain area which, of course, would give similar results.

There is still possibility for further confirmation on the larger scale and I'm sure that research will be done in the future.

And here are the human and chimp chromosomes side by side:


Cannot get the chart up, will post it later.

Britten, R. (2002). Divergence between samples of chimpanzee and human DNA sequences is 5%, counting indels. PNAS 99, 13633-13635.

Britten, R., Rowen, L., Williams, J., and Cameron, A. (2003). Majority of divergence between closely related DNA samples is due to indels. PNAS 100, 4661-4665.

Wildman, D., Uddin, M., Liu, G., Grossman, L., and Goodman, M. (2003). Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo. PNAS 100, 7181-7188.
_________________
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Planet_EN said:
Evolution is nothing more than propaganda, which has its roots in atheism, which is a religion in itself ...

Is that the position you wanted to debate when you started this?

Sweeping dogmatic unsubstantiated assertions like that make it pretty difficult to debate. There's more ignorant folly in those few words than I can adequately debunk in less than 20 pages, so I'll just try to hit the highlights here.

Evidently you don’t understand the implications of your own posts. Regarding the similarity of chimpanzee and human DNA, for instance, it's quite clear that science is altering its conclusions as new evidence becomes available, which is pretty much a daily occurrence in the scientific world. Such self-correction is one of science’s great virtues, but your tone suggests you think this is a weakness. Doesn’t this tell you anything useful about the nature of science compared to religion? When was the last time a religion altered its claims in the face of new evidence? It took the Catholic Church centuries to officially acknowledge Galileo was on to something true and useful, and much of the history of the last 400 years in the Western world can be read as the Christian churches retreating from making empirical claims about the nature of the world in the face of the scientific revolution. When religion makes empirical claims about the nature of things that conflict with the evidence-based findings of science, religion has to yield; it is simply wrong.

Propaganda is the dissemination of ideas and information for the purpose of inducing or intensifying specific attitudes and actions, according to the dictionary I have at hand. If evolution is indeed just propaganda, who does it serve, and what could possibly be their purposes? What are these specific attitudes and actions the evolutionary propagandists wish to induce or intensify? Are you suggesting science, or at least evolutionary theory, is a conspiracy aimed at destroying religion and replacing it with atheism?

More specifically, evolution is one of the best attested theories we have. Nothing in biology makes sense without it, it is one of the great unifying themes in science, and it's also supported by multiple converging lines of evidence from physics, chemistry, archeology, paleontology, geology, you name it. Moreover, the evidence is freely available to anyone who cares to look for it, and if you're capable of understanding it you cannot come to any other conclusion. If you can't accept the findings and methods of science, the only reliable way we've ever found for testing the truth content of ideas, you'd be better off resigning from the human race and looking for work as a vegetable.

As for atheism being a religion itself, I can only conclude you don’t know what those words mean. Faith, which in this context means a belief that isn’t based on evidence, is the defining characteristic of religions, so you’re implicitly claiming that atheism is based on faith. It is in fact precisely the opposite, it is an absence of faith. Atheists reject the claim that god exists because the evidence presented in support of it is insufficient to justify belief, it doesn’t prove the case.

You'll have to do better than that if you expect a real debate. All you've shown so far is that you don't understand what you're talking about.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Which church? You know as well as I do that there is no single church. Anti-evolutionism isn't even restricted to a single religion, as Planet_EN's reference to the Quran points out.

The universal church AKA the Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church we all think about when we hear the words, but the universal one....the one in the Apostles Creed. That church. It’s hard for non-churchies to understand that, because they aren’t involved in it.

The Quran, isn't a document the Western world has paid much attention to...certainly hasn't much to do with us. I don't include it/them in my conversations about the church.

Anti-evolutionism, from my perspective, is becoming more of a "science could be wrong" sort of thing. I don't believe science has all the answers, and it can't provide any sort of relief for my spiritual matters. I use science on a daily basis, I use spirituality on a daily bases. 1+1 = 2, but that doesn’t mean there isn't a being or beings living in the other dimensions were starting to discover. It doesn’t mean much to my want of something better than what we have, and 1+1=2 isn’t much to have IMHO.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
mmmmmm....no I think not Jay. What its really about is a group of people becoming afraid that people might start asking questions, especially since people are becoming smarter. They insult religious people, if you can understand what I mean. They are the most diabological people of all, they would try and undermine legitimate science. Wow! what next, set them on fire, than I guess its on to the intellectuals.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
"They insult religious people, if you can understand what I mean. They are the most diabological people of all, they would try and undermine legitimate science. Wow! what next, set them on fire, than I guess its on to the intellectuals."

Of course I was speaking personally, but yes in many respects I guess your right. The book burners and the people burners exist. They do give believers a bad name. I guess I don't know any of them, so it’s hard to say altogether. Christ chastised the Pharisees for the exact same thing, and then they killed him. There are a lot of arm chair, and otherwise, Pharisees in today’s world.

I will say, I believe science can and will stand up to their line of questioning....we have made it this far and the future looks bright. At the same time we must withstand to urge to knock religion, and burn its priests and faithful, and their books.

I know Christians have and will continue to provide science and the humanities with a lasting benefit.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I'm not going to get into a debate about Christian churches here, Jay. Most of the opposition to evolutionary theory in North America comes from Christians. The are also components of Judaism and Islam that oppose evolution. There are other religious groups that oppose it, but those are the main ones here and they all grow from one religion.

Spirituality, as I mentioned in another post, is not tied to religiousity. Suggesting that is so is just plain old wrong.

Science is not supposed to fulfill spirituality, although it does for many because there is a beauty in knowledge and truth.

For others...well that's why they rereleased the Sex Pistols on CD.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Very true Jay, so I say to reasonable intelligent christans, do something about creationists!!!! They are a blight not only to christians but to anyone that have an IQ. Science only provides the how not the why...legitmate science threatens this group of people, in fact they are so sure that you will lose your faith, they will try to undermine legitmate science. Their's is based on nothing, no science method, nothing. That makes it bullshit. :wink:
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Since you cut and paste fire, you won't mind if I do to

Actually Pea, I just copied out some quotes I had handy.

3.5: ASSERTION: Cells are too complex to have come into existence all at once by pure chance.

RESPONSE: This is true, but irrelevant to origin-of-life research,

Wasn’t asking about origin of life, just how a cell developed by numerous, successive, slight modifications.

The origin of the first cell is supposed by all researchers to have been a stepwise process,

Right. That was the question. What are all those steps? (Guess that would be origin of life because a cell is required)

origin-of-life theories rely on various organizing principles, including selection mechanisms and catalysis, that are supposed to have limited and constrained the wide scope of prebiotic chemical possibilities

Yup, that’s what they rely on, but so far, nothing that stands up to science.

Your next very long post is rather incoherent and misrepresents both Behe and the design argument and I’m not going to bother going through it all.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Dex,

I'm getting pressure to get off the 'puter so I'll post what I can.

Regarding your link:

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design1/article.html

Miller seems to have made it his mission in life to challenge Behe, since he seems to devote a great deal of time toward that purpose. Someone said (I think it was Miller) that Behe is believable when you only read his work and not the opposing views at the same time. Well, the same could be said for Miller. In your link Miller mentions the Behe challenge to produce transitional fossil links from land mammals to whales, and that such species had been found before his challenge was even published. What Miller does not mention, is that some years later more evidence was discovered that indicated that they were not ancestors of whales.

As I read through the page I found a number of claims that they had shown that Behe was wrong, yet I recognized them as topics that Behe had responded to and had been able to counter quite easily. The page also makes some inaccurate statements about Behe’s claims such as:

If the biochemical machinery of the cell cannot be produced by natural selection, then there is only one reasonable alternative – design by an intelligent agent.

This only a part of his claim, the part that points to design has been left out.

When Behe is given the opportunity to respond, he has had no problem disproving the claims of Miller et al.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
How about this...Gawd got the ball rolling and evolution is the process.

There, now everybody wins.
--------------------------------------------------jo canadian

That was the best thing said.

And that cartoon ending with "My God they're EVOLVING !" is just priceless.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
How about this...Gawd got the ball rolling and evolution is the process.

There, now everybody wins.
--------------------------------------------------jo canadian

That's the deist position. Lots of people believe that. Atheists totally reject it. Guess it sounds too much like a concession.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
57
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
No. There is no proof that God even exists now, then or ever has.

Were Adam and Eve caveman? What about the other species of human, that was dug up in Indonesia not so long ago?

Genesis is written by fallible Human beings, not God, and is proven to be a false record of creation. It also shows many symptoms of being a piecemeal, fragmented myth that has been editted and rewritten over time so that it hardly even makes internal sense.

The problem of what caused God to create the Universe pretty much means that there were other things going on before God created the universe and this is a contradiction! So, it cannot be true that God created the Universe. It is also true that God cannot have created Time - in order for time to be created it must be finite, which of course it can't be, because the creation of time must have occurred before time, which is not possible.


From-HERE!
Punctuated equilibrium is neither a creationist idea nor even a non-Darwinian evolutionary theory about sudden change that produces a new species all at once in a single generation. Punctuated equilibrium accepts the conventional idea that new species form over hundreds or thousands of generations and through an extensive series of intermediate stages. But geological time is so long that even a few thousand years may appear as a mere "moment" relative to the several million years of existence for most species. Thus, rates of evolution vary enormously and new species may appear to arise "suddenly" in geological time, even though the time involved would seem long, and the change very slow, when compared to a human lifetime.

Humans did not evolve from modern apes, but humans and modern apes shared a common ancestor, a species that no longer exists. Because we shared a recent common ancestor with chimpanzees and gorillas, we have many anatomical, genetic, biochemical, and even behavioral similarities with the African great apes. We are less similar to the Asian apes—orangutans and gibbons—and even less similar to monkeys, because we shared common ancestors with these groups in the more distant past.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Extrafire said:
If the biochemical machinery of the cell cannot be produced by natural selection...

That seems to be pretty much a specific case of your key point, and similar to a challenge you made elsewhere, demanding an explanation for how a cell formed by a series of small steps. You've also issued essentially the same challenge regarding blood clotting. Presumably you feel that if science cannot produce a satisfactory answer right now, that somehow vindicates your position. It doesn't. All you're doing is trying to shift the burden of proof, a special case of the formal logical fallacy called the Argument from Ignorance, which you've also used elsewhere.

You're implicitly assuming science will never be able to explain it in naturalistic terms, so divine intervention will forever remain the only explanation, and as I've explained elsewhere, that's not really an explanation at all. It leads into all kinds of complex ontological arguments, all of which can be shown to be weak and inconclusive. But that's a topic for another thread, which I don't propose to start, that's the kind of arcane philosophical stuff that makes my head hurt.

Unexplained is not the same as inexplicable. You're using another logical fallacy called the God of the Gaps argument. We are currently unable to explain it, so it is safe to assume that we never will. People once believed that god was necessary to explain the specific existence of human beings, but science has demonstrated that is no longer a necessary or even useful explanation.

You're also wrong to claim that Behe's successfully answered his critics; only somebody predisposed to accept Behe's position relatively uncritically could think so. He continues to commit exactly the same logical fallacies you do, just as he did from the beginning.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Wow.
Great incisive debate going on here.

You'll never see the completeness and complexity of this debate ever displayed on an op-ed page.

I wonder how evolution theory will look at the next generation of man when it assumes the form of robots ?

For isn't that the aspiration not understood by most complaints about the inefficiency and mistakes of mankind?

We want to get rid of all of our negatives, to make ourselves more perfect in some image we hold in our heads.


And when you consider nature installs a built-in historical amnesia whereby we don't remember who we came from because somehow we lost the database that was never maintained or updated simply because the sun will grow old and supernova and no amount of visual reality library can ever come close to match all of the reality that was us.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming on the analysis of intelligent design and scientific evolutionary theory...
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I wonder how evolution theory will look at the next generation of man when it assumes the form of robots ?

Do you think we'll become robots in the true sense, ot is it more likely to be a combination of genetic enhancement, robotics, and machines repairing our natural bodies at an atomic level?

I have little doubt that all of that is likely to happen, but can it be considered an evolutionary step?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
The answer is yes to all of your questions.

And yes our image of robots is evolving from the standard pile of metal and crappy electronics.

But I don't really want to interfere with this thread on this wonderful analysis of evolutionary theory and intelligient design, so let this thread continue its look at the past.

New thread started on Robots and Evolution can be a look at the future of evolving.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Why do some insist that the Bible must be interpreted so literally.

First off, While I believe in it, I also believe it's far outdated, and also that it was intended to teach spiritual, not scientific, truths.

Certainly we can accept the Biblical story in teh sense that God created us, with the different symbolism presented in teh story, but as for the scientific facts behind it, then we ought to refer to science. And from what I can see there, it appears that evolution occurred indeed.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Machjo said:
Why do some insist that the Bible must be interpreted so literally.

It's only been in the last 60 or so years, that churches have begun to claim that the bible should not be taken literally. Until that time, they have maintained the the words in the Bible are the words of God, so how could they not be taken literally? Now churches play fast and loose with interpretations of the bible, and all if it smacks of the need to justify their prior ignorance.

Machjo said:
First off, While I believe in it, I also believe it's far outdated, and also that it was intended to teach spiritual, not scientific, truths.

As I responded in the first post, if the bible is the word of God, as the Catholic church continues to maintain, then the scientific inconsistencies in the bible would indicate that God has no knowledge of science, whatsoever.

I've never made claim that the bible is a book to teach science, as that would be absurd, but there are many references in the bible that can be absolutely refuted by science.

How does the church respond? Don't take the book so literally...nice alibi, as it gets them out of having to answer questions of validity.

Machjo said:
Certainly we can accept the Biblical story in teh sense that God created us...

Certainly you can, Machjo, but for my part, I absolutely refuse to, as theists have yet to respond adaquately to the burden of proof that is upon them.