Evolution Debate ...

Machjo

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Sorry for the misunderstanding, Vanni. I was actually addressing those who do belive in a literal interpretation of the Bible. While I do believe the Bible to be the word of God, I also don't believe he intended to e so literal. But then again, I also believe the lawd of the gospel ave sinse been suplanted by the Qur'an and later by the Aqdas.

But anyway, I think we can disagree on this one and not get intoa theological debate about that, as I ave intention of trying to convert you.

As I'd mentioned, my previous post was directed rather at those who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible sinse, as you yourself have pointed out, a literal interpretation is full of contradictions and scientific errors. Not to mention that Some of the prophets sometimes dreamt in symbols as mentionned in the Bible, plus Jesus Himself often spoke in parables.

So I suspect that at the very least, adduming the Bible is in fact the word of God, there's no way any thnking person can intrerpret it literally in the face of scientific evidence and logic.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding in the previous post.
 

peapod

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Behe is a biochemist at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania and clearly says that he accepts a lot of evolution, so much so that he should get in plenty of trouble with "old-time religion" creationists. However, Behe draws the line at the molecular level: while evolutionists might be able to explain how humans descended from other primates, and might even have a good explanation for the evolution of the eye, they can't tell us how complex biochemical pathways came into existence. Take blood clotting, for example. In order for the blood to coagulate when a cut through the skin is made, several proteins have to act in a precise sequence. Take any of them out, and you bleed to death. Or consider the flagellum of a bacterium (the "tail" that allows some bacteria to swim). It is made of several parts intricately interconnected to each other. Again, take one of them away, and the bacterial cell will be stuck in place forever. But, notices Behe, evolution is supposed to work gradually and to assemble structures that work at every single step (since it cannot predict the future use of something). This creates an apparent paradox whence a mindless natural force is supposed to come up with something that smells terribly of intelligent design. Isn't this a deathblow to evolution as the explanation of life's "irreducible" complexity?

Not so fast. There are a few things missing from Behe's scenario which are worth considering briefly. First, he has not done his homework. Contrary to what he repeatedly claims in his book, biologists have done a bit of research on the evolution of biochemical pathways, and there are several known examples of bacterial flagella that are simpler than the one Behe conveniently uses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a biochemist) to figure out that in fact these simpler versions could easily represent intermediate steps toward complex flagella. Second, it is not true (again contra Behe) that biochemical pathways are assembled in a way that one cannot take any element away without having the whole system collapsing. In fact, most of genetical research is based on the ability to produce mutations that knock down certain genes (and therefore certain components of biochemical pathways) while still yielding a functional organism to be studied. One of the major discoveries of 20th century molecular biology (which Behe must have somehow missed) is that organisms are not irreducibly complex at all; rather, they show redundant complexity: they are made of several parts that have no unique and irreplaceable function. As biologist Francois Jacob put it, this is exactly what you would expect if natural selection worked like a bricoleur rather than a cunning engineer. A bricoleur is somebody who assembles new things out of old parts that are easily available. The result is bound to be complex, redundant, suboptimal, and not too pretty. Exactly like living organisms, and precisely what you would expect from a natural phenomenon. No intelligent design required.

Behe makes at least two fundamental mistakes in his attack against evolutionary biology (other than neglecting to check the available literature more thoroughly). Perhaps the subtler of the two is that he completely ignores the fact that evolutionary biology deals with historical as well as current events. If one picks a modern organism, say a bacterium of the species Escherichia coli, and tries to imagine how it could have evolved, one is up against a huge problem: what you see today under the microscope is not a "primitive" organism, but the result of (literally) billions of years of change. As we know from organisms that actually leave fossils (contrary to most bacteria), more than 99% of the species that ever existed went extinct. Since most of these don't leave fossils (especially bacteria), we are lucky if we see a few intermediate links at all, alive or in the fossil record. No wonder that evolution may look like a series of huge jumps that could not possibly have been the result of natural selection. Yet Behe behaves as if we didn't know anything about extinction and evolution, and bases his argument on an extremely naive picture of biological research and of science in general.

The second fatal mistake is common to all versions of Intelligent Design: the whole approach is essentially based on an argument from ignorance. Let us assume that biologists really don't have the foggiest about the way a particular biochemical pathway (aerobic respiration in mitochondria, for example) came about. What is that supposed to prove? If Behe were alive at the time of Aristotle, would he be arguing that lightning is clear proof of Zeus' existence because we have no idea of how a natural phenomenon could possibly provoke such a sudden discharge of energy? And yet this is exactly what the core of Behe's argument is: since we don't know how it happened, it must have been God. Sorry, Michael, but science is about working hard to find the answers. Bailing out while invoking a Deus-ex-machina is not the name of the game.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Machjo said:
Dexter Sinister said:
Machjo said:
... the gospel ave sinse been suplanted by the Qur'an and later by the Aqdas.

That's a new one to me. What are the Aqdas?

The Kitab-i-Aqdas, the most important of the Baa'i sacred texts. You can read more about the Baha'i faith at:

http://www.bahai.org/

Oh...and then there's the Book of Mormon...can't forget that one right... :wink:

Great post by the way, Pea... 8)
 

Machjo

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About Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon.

Baha'is don't accept the Boobk of Mormon as being inspired texts, but interesting to note that Joseph Smith did get a mention in our authoritative texts. I can't remember the exact quote, and am too lazy to search it right now, but it was along the lines of joseph Smith being well-intentionned.

Beyond that, however, I know little about that book or joseph Smith. I have met Mormons, however, and they seem to be quite friendly people overall.
 

Machjo

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But again, if one does believe in the Book of Mormon as the inspired word of God, that's fine, but again I'd hope they will at least not try to impose a superstitious (i.e. contrary to science) interpretation to it. After all, it would just seem logical to me that if, for the sake of argument, the Book of Mormon really was the inspired book of God, then obviously it would have to be infallible. And if it were infallible, then obviously there would be no errors in it which would conflict with science. It would only seem rational, therefore, that if one should suppose that the Book of mormon is the infallible and unerring word of god, that any interpretation which would contradict science must be incorrect.
 

peapod

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excuse me...I will just slip this in while you guys are not around. Thanks don't let me interupt you. :p


In June 2003, the Roseville district was choosing a textbook for high school biology courses. One local citizen, Larry Caldwell, protested that the book favored by teachers took a “one-sided” approach to teaching evolution. Like all commercial textbooks, the Holt, Rinehart, and Winston textbook includes evolution but no creationist or antievolution content. Caldwell said that the textbook did not invite students to “think critically” about the subject of evolution and offered a stack of supplemental books and videotapes that would redress the book's deficiencies. These were an odd mixture of ID and creation science: DVDs promoted by the Discovery Institute; a young-earth creationist book, Refuting Evolution by Jonathan Safarti; and the Jehovah's Witness book Life: How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or Creation? Thanks to its free distribution, this book is probably the most widely-circulated creation science book in the country.

District teachers strongly opposed all these materials. The board, even with a 4-1 antievolutionist majority, found it difficult to mandate their use over strong educator objection, but they persevered. At the next meeting, they declared that the creationist materials would be "recommended" but not required, and that each school could decide whether or not to use them. This was to provide an opportunity for creationist parents to lobby teachers and administrators. The board also organized an "information session" for teachers on the supplementary materials led by Caldwell and ID supporter Cornelius Hunter, a local engineer and author of several religiously-oriented antievolution books.

The polite but unconvinced teachers suggested the supplementary materials be sent to scientists at the University of California, Davis, California State University, Sacramento, and Brigham Young University (one of the school board members is a Mormon) to review the materials and Caldwell's analysis of the Holt textbook.

The scientists' reports unanimously declared Caldwell's supplementary materials unscientific. His comments about evolution in the textbook analysis did not express professional scientists' view of evolution. One scientist wrote of Caldwell's “gross misunderstanding of the nature of science.” Another, in exasperation, wrote, “... consider that the thousands of us who practice evolutionary biology daily might just not be such blind fools as to miss the 'flaws' that Hunter thinks are fatal to what we do.” The most “positive” comment from the scientists' critiques was that one of the ID videos might have some educational value as “a tongue-in-cheek example of weak argumentative strategy and pseudo science.” The school district administration agreed not to adopt the materials.



The story goes on for several more paragraphs. Suffice it to say that the condemnation of professional scientists did not discourage Roseville's creationists. As Stephen Jay Gould once noted, “The yahoos never rest.”
 

Dexter Sinister

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This seems to contain the official word from the Mormons on the subject, for anyone who's interested. It's pretty similar to the standard fundamentalist Christian view; it doesn't appear to have anything new to add to the discussion, it's the same old arguments from ignorance, arguments from design, arguments from irreducible complexity, arguments from mystic nonsense stuff.

Actually, Reverend Blair had it right, right from the beginning. There's no debate. When religion makes empirical statements about the nature of reality that are at odds with the findings of science, religion has to yield. The mystics are still fighting a rear-guard action in a battle they lost a century ago.
 

Reverend Blair

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This seems to contain the official word from the Mormons on the subject, for anyone who's interested.

What I find interesting about the Mormons is that while they deny evolutionary theory and have taken part in trying to have it removed from public schools ot taught alongside unscientific materials, they do teach it at Brigham Young.
 

Extrafire

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Sorry I've been gone so long. Lack of time, as well as official disaproval from on high (spouse). I've got a little time now so I'll try to catch up.

That seems to be pretty much a specific case of your key point, and similar to a challenge you made elsewhere, demanding an explanation for how a cell formed by a series of small steps. You've also issued essentially the same challenge regarding blood clotting. Presumably you feel that if science cannot produce a satisfactory answer right now, that somehow vindicates your position. It doesn't. All you're doing is trying to shift the burden of proof, a special case of the formal logical fallacy called the Argument from Ignorance, which you've also used elsewhere.

Not quite. The challenge is that it’s been demonstrated that it is impossible for some of these systems to have formed by slight successive gradual changes. For example, the bacterial flagellum is incredibly complex, but if we ignore all that and reduce it to its 3 basic components, a paddle, a rotor and a motor, you’ll find that if we eliminate any one of those components, we don’t get a flagellum that works at 50% or 30% or 10% efficiency, we get one that doesn’t work at all. The best the evolutionists have been able to come up with is that the components are something very like components of other simpler systems that somehow came together. But these components would have to have portions that are complementary and attracted to each other in the right places and right sizes and they would ALL have to fit together in the right way before anything would even have a function, and it would have to have been an accident that just happened to be advantageous. And if you did manage to have all these pieces you would have to have something that would BRING them all together in just the right way. There isn’t enough time in the whole history of the earth for something like that to happen by self assembly. And you wouldn’t have to do this once, you’d have to do it multiple numerous times. It’s not that science can’t provide an answer now, it’s that science knows it’s impossible. It’s an argument from knowledge.

You're implicitly assuming science will never be able to explain it in naturalistic terms, so divine intervention will forever remain the only explanation, and as I've explained elsewhere, that's not really an explanation at all

Unexplained is not the same as inexplicable. You're using another logical fallacy called the God of the Gaps argument. We are currently unable to explain it, so it is safe to assume that we never will.

If someone from the 19th century were to come upon a car in a dark garage and shine a flashlight on the engine, he wouldn’t be able to determine from that cursory examination just how it functioned. If he got more lights and was able to see more of the engine, it wouldn’t make his problem any simpler, it would just show more complexity. In the same way, as we learn more and more about molecular biology, it won’t make it look any simpler, it will just reveal more complexity, and more of a challenge to Darwinism. I’m not suggesting unexplained. I’m saying inexplicable. By rejecting the obvious and saying that the inexplicable is a product of evolution, even though it appears impossible, the darwinists are using an “evolution of the gaps” argument.

You're also wrong to claim that Behe's successfully answered his critics; only somebody predisposed to accept Behe's position relatively uncritically could think so.

I do indeed want Behe’s arguments to stand up to criticism, but I also need to be convinced that they do. Any argument that I have seen Behe reply to, he has clearly been able to refute his critics. By arguing against only portions of Behe’s work, taken out of context and misrepresented, as Miller has frequently done, he employs a straw man argument, one that only someone unaware of Behe’s actual argument, or predisposed to accept any contradiction of Behe would accept.
 

Extrafire

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.....the official word from the Mormons on the subject, for anyone who's interested. It's pretty similar to the standard fundamentalist Christian view; it doesn't appear to have anything new to add to the discussion....

I'm not expert on Mormonism and I stand to be corrected, but from what I understand from talking to some of them, they believe that God is a man who lives on a planet circulating around a star called Kolab (which, it used to be claimed was located at the center of the galaxy) and who was such a good mormon type that he was exalted to the position of a god and got to create his own world and people, us, and that if we men are real good mormons we too can be exalted to god status and create our own worlds and peoples. Women can't be exalted to god status, they even have to be invited by their husbands to enter heaven.

This may not still be official, since I hear they're changing some of it. For instance, they now say they don't know where Kolab is.
 
Charles H. Townes, inventor of the laser and winner of the Nobel and Templeton Prizes, argues that religion and science have much in common and that the two disciplines should come together.

In an interview with National Public Radio, Townes said, "consider what religion is. Religion is an attempt to understand the purpose and meaning of our universe. What is science? It’s the attempt to understand how our universe works. Purpose and meaning must have something to do with how it works, so those two must be related."

Townes argued that science, like religion, operates on faith in the form of postulates. Scientists "believe in [postulates] but we can’t prove them," Townes said, "and sometimes these postulates are wrong. For example, most scientists in the past thought the universe could not have had a beginning; it had to always be here, always be the same. Einstein felt that very strongly. Now, scientists have discovered that, yes, there was a beginning to our universe."

Townes said that in the last 40 years, as scientists have begun to discover the intricacies of our physical world, the scientific community has started to acknowledge that some intelligent force may have had a hand in organizing and guiding the universe.

But Townes is weary of the term "intelligent design," which refers to the idea that the universe is so complex and ordered that an intelligent being must have had a hand in its creation.

Although skeptical of the debate over intelligent design, Townes himself believes in a spiritual being that he says he "can’t describe ...I don’t think anyone can [describe it] appropriately."

Intelligent design advocates differ from creationists in that they accept the notions that some species change and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. However, they deny that evolution is entirely responsible for the vast variety of life forms.

Those who believe in intelligent design say that certain structures found in living things, such as the extra wings on certain fruit flies or the flagella of bacteria, cannot be explained by Darwinian concepts of natural selection and random variation.

More specifically, they argue that the complexity of the flagella and the various "machines" inside cells could not have evolved from other life forms. Like a mousetrap or a wristwatch, they say, it is evident that there was a designer
 

Vanni Fucci

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Extrafire,

Organisms have always evolved to satisfy a specific need...most often that need will be survival...

An example of this is antibiotic resistant infections. This is an example of evolutionary adaptation in the microbes that cause infection.

So too are weeds that have become resistent or immune to farmers' herbicides...

Bottom line is that the examples of evolution are everywhere...you just have to be willing to recognize them for what they are...
 

peapod

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"What does evolution look like? Look around. That tree. That bush. That insect. I can find evolution in the spur of a delphinium, just as I can find it everywhere in all the living world"

Flowers pollinated by hummingbirds often have a curved corolla tubes. This curve makes the birds beak push againist the tube and touch the antlers. In response, some hummingbirds evolved a matching curved beak, which makes their feeding more efficient. In response some flowers evolved even curvier corollas, which made the curved beak push again against the top of the corolla tube. This is evolution.
 

Extrafire

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Vanni Fucci said:
Extrafire,

Organisms have always evolved to satisfy a specific need...most often that need will be survival...

An example of this is antibiotic resistant infections. This is an example of evolutionary adaptation in the microbes that cause infection.

So too are weeds that have become resistent or immune to farmers' herbicides...

Bottom line is that the examples of evolution are everywhere...you just have to be willing to recognize them for what they are...

A lot of people see what they want to see, or will substitute quick glance for an in-depth look if it appears to be what they want to see. A few years ago I saw a program describing the problem of antibiotic resistance developing in bacteria, and they described in detail the process. It was fascinating, but no evidence of new speciation. Instead, the weaker members of the species were weeded out and those that had within their genetic makeup the ability to resist became predominant. There was no new species, only a strengthening of the existing species. Natural selection will produce different breeds, and will strengthen the species, but will not produce new species.

That being said, there is evidence of mircro-evolution but the criteria as such that anything other than very tiny organisms can't do it, for the same reason that very large organisms (whales, dinosaurs) are considered to be very high risk for extinction. Which then leads to the question of how such extiction-risk creatures could have evolved in the first place.
 

Extrafire

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(Heavy sigh)

As always, Pea, the criticisms of Behe argue against claims he has not made or misrepresent his claims.

Not so fast. There are a few things missing from Behe's scenario which are worth considering briefly. First, he has not done his homework. Contrary to what he repeatedly claims in his book, biologists have done a bit of research on the evolution of biochemical pathways, and there are several known examples of bacterial flagella that are simpler than the one Behe conveniently uses.

Once again, a straw man argument. Behe did not claim that there were no simpler examples of the organisms he cites. For example, there are 3 irreducible components to cilia, dynein, nexin, and several microtubules. Critics have said by way of refuting, that you can remove one or more of the microtubules and it will still work. In fact, they point out some that actually have fewer microtubules, and say that since Behe said these were irreducible, his theory fails. But that’s not what he said. He didn’t say you couldn’t have a simpler cilium, or a less efficient one. He said the microtubules (plural, together) form an irreducible component. Take away any of the 3 irreducible components (dynein, nexin, or microtubules) and you don’t have a less efficient cilium, you have a broken one that can’t work at all.

One of the major discoveries of 20th century molecular biology (which Behe must have somehow missed) is that organisms are not irreducibly complex at all; rather, they show redundant complexity: they are made of several parts that have no unique and irreplaceable function. As biologist Francois Jacob put it, this is exactly what you would expect if natural selection worked like a bricoleur rather than a cunning engineer. A bricoleur is somebody who assembles new things out of old parts that are easily available.

I’ve explained this one already in a previous post. You would have to have all the parts for many complex systems that all need to come together at the same time to perform a function. They would all have to be the exact right size and shape and have the exact surfaces and attractions to fit together in the exact correct configurations, several times over (one for each part of the organism) and then somehow come together at the exact same time to perform a hitherto unknown and unnecessary complex function that suddenly becomes necessary. Get real! Take a cell, put it in a saline solution and poke a hole in it so all the contents leak out. You have all the components which would be impossible to achieve in the above scenario. What are the chances of it self assembling and functioning? Right. Zero.

……what you see today under the microscope is not a "primitive" organism, but the result of (literally) billions of years of change.

Again, Behe has answered this one. There is a certain complexity threshold beyond which a cell will not function, and no one has any idea how it could assemble on it’s own.

As we know from organisms that actually leave fossils (contrary to most bacteria), more than 99% of the species that ever existed went extinct. Since most of these don't leave fossils (especially bacteria), we are lucky if we see a few intermediate links at all, alive or in the fossil record.

This is an “evolution of the gaps” argument and no intelligent scientist would take it seriously.

The second fatal mistake is common to all versions of Intelligent Design: the whole approach is essentially based on an argument from ignorance. Let us assume that biologists really don't have the foggiest about the way a particular biochemical pathway (aerobic respiration in mitochondria, for example) came about. What is that supposed to prove? If Behe were alive at the time of Aristotle, would he be arguing that lightning is clear proof of Zeus' existence because we have no idea of how a natural phenomenon could possibly provoke such a sudden discharge of energy? And yet this is exactly what the core of Behe's argument is: since we don't know how it happened, it must have been God.

More misrepresentation. It’s an argument from knowledge. Knowledge of the complexity at the molecular level. It’s not that we don’t know how it could have developed, it’s that we know that can’t have developed by Darwinian process. It’s the knowledge that the only time we ever see information and complex motors and functions, it’s a product of intelligence.