Evolution Debate ...

peapod

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Since you cut and paste fire, you won't mind if I do to :wink:

3.5: ASSERTION: Cells are too complex to have come into existence all at once by pure chance.

RESPONSE: This is true, but irrelevant to origin-of-life research, since no origin-of-life researcher supposes that cells came into existence all at once by pure chance. The origin of the first cell is supposed by all researchers to have been a stepwise process, far from the creationist caricature of a sudden organization of loose proteins into a fully functioning prokaryotic cell with all of its complexity. Nor is the origin of the first cell supposed to have been a chance occurrence. As Iris Fry explains, "origin-of-life theories rely on various organizing principles, including selection mechanisms and catalysis, that are supposed to have limited and constrained the wide scope of prebiotic chemical possibilities, thus constructing the scaffolding out of which the living arch eventually emerged" (Fry 2000:196).

3.6: ASSERTION: There are too many different combinations of amino acids and nucleic acids for a given enzyme or DNA sequence to come into existence all at once by pure chance.

RESPONSE: This is true, but irrelevant to origin-of-life research, since no origin-of-life researcher supposes that modern enzymes and DNA strands came into existence all at once by pure chance. As Iris Fry explains, "origin-of-life theories rely on various organizing principles, including selection mechanisms and catalysis, that are supposed to have limited and constrained the wide scope of prebiotic chemical possibilities, thus constructing the scaffolding out of which the living arch eventually emerged" (Fry 2000:196). It is also worth pointing out, of course, that enzymes with many different configurations can have identical or similar effects, meaning that no one particular enzyme must necessarily be generated in order to carry out a specific function.
 

peapod

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Here is something else for your creationist bebe crap to.

Michael Behe at it again
You almost feel sorry for Michael Behe. All he can do is repeat the same tired old anti-evolution “Intelligent Design” (ID) arguments that have already been debunked, nothing new. He’s at it again, this time in The New York Times Op Ed last weekend. Since the NYT gave him a pulpit, I guess he should be debunked once more. Try not to fall asleep reading Behe’s lame excuses for an argument. Keep a sharp pin handy – stick it in your arm if you feel yourself falling asleep. Here goes…

In the wake of the recent lawsuits over the teaching of Darwinian evolution, there has been a rush to debate the merits of the rival theory of intelligent design. As one of the scientists who have proposed design as an explanation for biological systems, I have found widespread confusion about what intelligent design is and what it is not.

Then let me clear up the confusion. This is what ID is not: ID is not a scientific theory. Got that? Good. Next.

Want more? OK, a scientific theory is an explanation for some observable fact; ID is just a series of criticisms of the theory of evolution. See the difference? A scientific theory does not consist of a series of criticisms of another theory, even if those criticisms are valid (which they are not). For ID to be a theory, it would have to explain something about the designer. For example, who or what is the designer? Where are his (her?) designs and how did he produce them? How did he implement these designs? And most importantly, what does all the foregoing tell us about how the designer will behave in the future: what predictions can we make; what use can we make of the theory? ID tells us nothing, it’s an admission of defeat. That is not science. Even if Behe is a scientist as he claims, he is not doing science.

First, what it isn't: the theory of intelligent design is not a religiously based idea, even though devout people opposed to the teaching of evolution cite it in their arguments.

Slightly disingenuous. It’s certainly religiously inspired. But it is true that the IDiots have tried hard to conceal its religious roots. Anyway, it makes no difference. It’s still not a theory and it’s still wrong whether it is religiously based or not.

Rather, the contemporary argument for intelligent design is based on physical evidence and a straightforward application of logic. The argument for it consists of four linked claims. The first claim is uncontroversial: we can often recognize the effects of design in nature. For example, unintelligent physical forces like plate tectonics and erosion seem quite sufficient to account for the origin of the Rocky Mountains. Yet they are not enough to explain Mount Rushmore.

Of course, we know who is responsible for Mount Rushmore, but even someone who had never heard of the monument could recognize it as designed. Which leads to the second claim of the intelligent design argument: the physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology. This is uncontroversial, too. The 18th-century clergyman William Paley likened living things to a watch, arguing that the workings of both point to intelligent design. Modern Darwinists disagree with Paley that the perceived design is real, but they do agree that life overwhelms us with the appearance of design.


Rather strangely he uses both the Mt.Rushmore analogy and the watch analogy and thinks these are two separate arguments. Surely they are the same argument: we know Mt Rushmore and the watch were designed (I presume he means the faces carved on Mt Rushmore, not the mountain itself), and so (by analogy), life was designed too. Both arguments suffer the same fatal flaw.


Here’s the problem. These are both examples of reasoning by analogy. Reasoning by analogy can seem compelling, since humans tend to look for patterns and similarities (analogs), in things, and give less credence to dissimilarities. To determine how good this argument it is, though, you need to look at the dissimilarities: where the analogy breaks down. And this analogy sure breaks down – it’s a false analogy.

Let’s analyze it. We know that Mt Rushmore/watch were designed because they have a purpose - Mt Rushmore’s purpose is to model the faces of the four presidents carved there; the watch’s purpose is to tell the time. If they have a purpose, they must have a designer, yes? But here’s where the analogy falls apart: life on Earth has no purpose. So it’s a false analogy and so you can’t draw the conclusion that life on Earth and Mt Rushmore/watch are analogous in any way. Thank you. Don’t mention it.

What’s that at the back? How do I know that life on Earth has no purpose? Aha, good question. Strictly speaking I don’t know. But here’s the thing. If life on Earth does have a purpose (as the analogy requires, to be valid), then it must have a designer. So for the analogy to be valid you must start from the premise that that life on Earth has a designer. The analogy is now valid. But “life on Earth has a designer” is also the conclusion of the analogy. And when the premise of the argument is the same as the conclusion, you have the definition of circular reasoning. It’s a logical fallacy for the good reason that if you allow the premise of your argument to assume your conclusion you can prove pretty much anything. Either way the argument is fatally flawed. False analogy or circular reasoning – pick your fallacy.

Reasoning by analogy is rarely a good argument. Better, is reasoning with facts and evidence. Unfortunately for Behe he doesn’t have any of these, so he has to use this flawed option again and again.

For example, Francis Crick, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, once wrote that biologists must constantly remind themselves that what they see was not designed but evolved. (Imagine a scientist repeating through clenched teeth: "It wasn't really designed. Not really.")

I just love how creationists or woo woos in general will quote a scientist (out of context), if they think the quote supports their position, and yet deride all the science that doesn’t fit their beliefs. Standard pseudoscience.

The resemblance of parts of life to engineered mechanisms like a watch is enormously stronger than what Reverend Paley imagined. In the past 50 years modern science has shown that the cell, the very foundation of life, is run by machines made of molecules. There are little molecular trucks in the cell to ferry supplies, little outboard motors to push a cell through liquid.

In 1998 an issue of the journal Cell was devoted to molecular machines, with articles like "The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines" and "Mechanical Devices of the Spliceosome: Motors, Clocks, Springs and Things." Referring to his student days in the 1960's, Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences, wrote that "the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered." In fact, Dr. Alberts remarked, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory with an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines. He emphasized that the term machine was not some fuzzy analogy; it was meant literally.

This only demonstrates that science progresses, learns new things, and discards the old when it is found to be false. Of course, if Behe did this with his material, he would have nothing left. This is really just another flawed argument by analogy.

The next claim in the argument for design is that we have no good explanation for the foundation of life that doesn't involve intelligence.

Here Behe appears to confuse Evolution with Abiogenesis. The former explains how life evolved from simple forms to the complexity we see today. The latter seeks to explain how the first life was formed. Evolution says nothing about how the first life was formed, although progress is being made in this area.

Here is where thoughtful people part company. Darwinists assert that their theory can explain the appearance of design in life as the result of random mutation and natural selection acting over immense stretches of time. Some scientists, however, think the Darwinists' confidence is unjustified. They note that although natural selection can explain some aspects of biology, there are no research studies indicating that Darwinian processes can make molecular machines of the complexity we find in the cell.

Nonsense, of course there are. Anyway, who are these “some scientists”? Here are some named Steve who disagree.

Scientists skeptical of Darwinian claims include many who have no truck with ideas of intelligent design, like those who advocate an idea called complexity theory, which envisions life self-organizing in roughly the same way that a hurricane does, and ones who think organisms in some sense can design themselves.

Here is another attempt to claim that many scientists disagree with evolution, with a red herring about complexity theory.

The fourth claim in the design argument is also controversial: in the absence of any convincing non-design explanation,

Except of course, there is no absence of such an explanation. Still, let’s pretend for now that there is such an absence. Just for fun…

we are justified in thinking that real intelligent design was involved in life.

BZTTT, wrong answer. Thanks for playing. Here we have a fundamental error in thinking. Behe states that we have no explanation for the complexity of life we observe. In other words, we lack information of how it happened. He draws the conclusion that there must be a designer. Here is the problem with this: you can’t draw any conclusions from a lack of information. Isn’t that obvious? Richard Dawkins called it Argument From Personal Incredulity – “I don’t see how it happened so it couldn’t have happened that way”. It’s more formally known as Argument From Ignorance – “I am ignorant of how it happened so it was caused by _______” (and here you insert your preferred explanation: God, a designer, aliens, whatever). Whatever you call it, it’s a logical fallacy – you don’t reach the conclusion from the arguments presented.

To evaluate this claim, it's important to keep in mind that it is the profound appearance of design in life that everyone is laboring to explain, not the appearance of natural selection or the appearance of self-organization.

No, just Behe, not “everyone”, is attempting to explain the "appearance" of design. This is Behe’s attempt to frame the argument to his liking. Actually, what evolution explains is how the observed complexity of life came about. And it does explain that, very well. The “appearance of design” is just Behe’s flawed analogy again.

The strong appearance of design allows a disarmingly simple argument: if it looks, walks and quacks like a duck, then, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, we have warrant to conclude it's a duck. Design should not be overlooked simply because it's so obvious.

Except that we do have compelling evidence to the contrary. Quack quack.

Still, some critics claim that science by definition can't accept design, while others argue that science should keep looking for another explanation in case one is out there. But we can't settle questions about reality with definitions, nor does it seem useful to search relentlessly for a non-design explanation of Mount Rushmore. Besides, whatever special restrictions scientists adopt for themselves don't bind the public, which polls show, overwhelmingly, and sensibly, thinks that life was designed. And so do many scientists who see roles for both the messiness of evolution and the elegance of design.


A paragraph of drivel closing with an Appeal To Popularity – lots of people believe in it so it must be true. What a lame argument from a supposed scientist.

No new arguments, no new evidence. After all these years and this is the best ID has to offer? What more proof do we need that ID is bankrupt?
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Whoa! Superbly done pea. If you wrote that, you're brilliant. If you found that somewhere else and posted it, you're still brilliant, for having the wit to do that.
 

peapod

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Well dex, no I didn't write it :p , but I am a free thinker and I know how to read :wink: Alot of science is far to complex for me, but I love botany 8) which takes me on many different paths of reading.

More than anything tho dex, I am not as polite as you and vanni, and I resent a pussy whipped logger having the gall and the arrogance to come here and try and undermine science. It makes me real crappy. :wink:
 

peapod

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I leave this evening dex with something I am sure will bring a smile to your face, and you extra fire I have a big fat folder of brillant minds that I can post here to debunk your hidden agenda :wink:


A plumbing parable
My kitchen sink has a problem. Something has broken inside the Moen faucet, so that the handle is loose and only marginally effective. I'm thinking I should run down to the hardware store and get a new faucet assembly, and get under the sink with a pipe wrench. It shouldn't be too difficult.

Right away, I run into an obstacle. I get down to the basement to fetch my wrench, and there's one of the local ministers sitting on the toolbox. "Have you tried the incredible power of prayer yet, son?" he asked. I said no, of course not. I'm trying to fix a broken faucet. And then he gave me one of those pitying looks and tried to convince me that not only could Jesus fix my faucet, he would give me wine on tap. So I told him to get his fat ass off my toolbox and out of my house, and he stomped off.

By the time I got upstairs, the phone was ringing. It was Phil Johnson. "You're assuming that wrench is the only way to fix that faucet, aren't you? You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of alternative methodologies."

"Pipe wrenches have always worked well for me, and it kinda makes sense that if you want to fix a faucet, you use a plumbing tool," I said. "If you've got a better way, I'd be happy to hear it."

"Oh, no, I'm not going to endorse a particular tool, that might divide the community. I just want you to admit that you have an a priori commitment to wrenches and faucets that precludes even considering immaterial methods."

I hung up on the senile old fart.

Next stop, the hardware store. The local school board is standing in front of the door, trying to block my entry. When I asked why they were interfering with me, one said, "Two thousand years ago, someone died on a cross. Can’t someone take a stand for him?" I had no idea that Jesus died for plumbing, but I didn't care, either. I went on in.

There were more members of the community haranguing the clerk. I just wanted to buy a new faucet and get home, but these other people were insisting he had to tell me all about alternative theories of plumbing, and recommend that I find other useful home repair ideas at the local church. He refused. So, instead, a group of protesters chanted a story about how maybe ghosts or aliens could fix my pipes while I made my purchase.

I came home to more interruptions. A whole cottage industry had sprung up on the internet, decrying godless plumbing paradigms, and my computer was beeping at all the incoming mail. The arguments were mind-boggling. There were people complaining that I couldn't install the faucet, because I hadn't seen the metal it was made from being smelted. There were others telling me there was a far superior brand I ought to put in, but they couldn't tell me the name, and I really didn't need to know it anyway in order to throw the one I'd just bought in the garbage.

I'm looking at the sink, the tools, my new faucet, and I'm thinking this all looks straightforward. Are these people idiots, or what?

The phone rings again. It's Michael Behe. A nice guy. Friendly. He actually talks to me about plumbing, unlike the parade of bozos so far, who haven't had a clue.

"Think about it, Paul. Inside that faucet, there is a whole series of valves and bushings and joints, all designed to regulate and restrict the flow of water under pressure. Water under pressure. When you remove the old faucet, there will be nothing to restrict the flow of water. There will be water surging out of that pipe, and you will not be able to install your new faucet. Here, let me send you a Farside cartoon by Gary Larson that illustrates your dilemma."

"Umm, Mike, I'm going to turn off the water at the main valve first."

"Oh."

There was an uncomfortable silence on the other end of the line.

"Paul, have you ever thought about how that water main got there? It has to cope with water under even higher pressure than what's coming out of any one faucet. That main valve is a miracle of complexity and precision…"

Click. Geez. That guy knows just enough plumbing to give the whole field a bad name.

I still haven't fixed the faucet.

But I have figured out that those other guys are all right on the money—there is an alternative to pipe wrenches and plumbing. I'll just blog about it, and hope that some faith-based payola will come my way. It won't fix the faucet, but that'll keep me in Evian and champaign, which beats Morris city tap water any day.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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I like your style pea, you're one of about half a dozen posters here I wish I knew in real life, like Vanni, Rev. Blair, Rick van Opbergen, and a few people who are obviously lunatic friends of yours out there on the Wet Coast: smart, sensible, rational, and entertaining. What more could anyone ask?

I'm not always polite though. I've been a little rude to certain other posters, not without cause I'm sure you'd agree, and at least one of them seems to have stopped talking to me. But I'm not losing any sleep over that.

But this is way off topic, and according to Andem (honoured be his name for providing this forum) I shouldn't do this.

So hang me...
 

Planet_EN

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Sep 10, 2004
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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Evolution is correct. Science, not religion or the Bible is the final truth on the matter.

The bible has so so many contridictions in it, I can not see why most people believe anything written in it. It seems like a

fairy tale to me. In my opinion anyhow.

But, Alas I am open minded, but I found this interesting scripture.

So does this scripture from the bible mean we were brought here by what people refer to "aliens"?

Of course, everyone knows Ezekial in the Bible (verses 4 through 19, etc.)

"4. And I looked and beheld a whirlwind came out of the north a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was

about it and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came

the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance, they had the likeness of man… and the living creatures

ran and returned as the appearance of the flash of lightning…and when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them,

and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up."

If its in the Bible it must be "true"?

listen to Quran ...
 

Planet_EN

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Sep 10, 2004
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This is not about proving the evoluion's theory by argument ... its about proving it by logical scientific reasoning ...

Please present the science rather than arguments. While doing argument your assumptions may lead to the reslt but in reality it requires the real assumptions to reach to actual result.

MANY evolutionist sources from time to time carry the claim that humans and apes share 99 percent of their genetic information and that this is proof of evolution. This evolutionist claim focuses particularly on chimpanzees, and says that this creature is the closest monkey to man, for which reason there is a kinship between the two. However, this is a false proof put forward by evolutionists who take advantage of the layman's lack of information on these subjects.

99% similarity claim is misleading propaganda

For a very long time, the evolutionist choir had been propagating the unsubstantiated thesis that there is very little genetic difference between humans and chimps. In every piece of evolutionist literature, you could read sentences like "we are 99 percent identical to chimps" or "there is only 1 percent of DNA that makes us human." Although no conclusive comparison between human and chimp genomes has been done, the Darwinist ideology led them to assume that there is very little difference between the two species.

A study in October 2002 revealed that the evolutionist propaganda on this issue—like many others—is completely false. Humans and chimps are not "99% similar" as the evolutionist fairy tale went on. Genetic similarity turns out to be less than 95 %. In a news story reported by CNN.com, entitled "Humans, chimps more different than thought," it reads:
"There are more differences between a chimpanzee and a human being than once believed, according to a new genetic study. Biologists have long held that the genes of chimps and humans are about 98.5 percent identical. But Roy Britten, a biologist at the California Institute of Technology, said in a study published this week that a new way of comparing the genes shows that the human and chimp genetic similarity is only about 95 percent. Britten based this on a computer program that compared 780,000 of the 3 billion base pairs in the human DNA helix with those of the chimp. He found more mismatches than earlier researchers had, and concluded that at least 3.9 percent of the DNA bases were different. This led him to conclude that there is a fundamental genetic difference between the species of about 5 percent. "

New Scientist, a leading science magazine and a strong supporter of Darwinism, reported the following on the same subject in an article titled "Human-chimp DNA difference trebled":
"We are more unique than previously thought, according to new comparisons of human and chimpanzee DNA. It has long been held that we share 98.5 per cent of our genetic material with our closest relatives. That now appears to be wrong. In fact, we share less than 95 per cent of our genetic material, a three-fold increase in the variation between us and chimps."

Evolution is nothing more than propaganda, which has its roots in atheism, which is a religion in itself ...
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

no1important said:
Evolution is correct. Science, not religion or the Bible is the final truth on the matter.

The bible has so so many contridictions in it, I can not see why most people believe anything written in it. It seems like a fairy tale to me. In my opinion anyhow.

But, Alas I am open minded, but I found this interesting scripture.

So does this scripture from the bible mean we were brought here by what people refer to "aliens"?

Of course, everyone knows Ezekial in the Bible (verses 4 through 19, etc.)

"4. And I looked and beheld a whirlwind came out of the north a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance, they had the likeness of man… and the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of the flash of lightning…and when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them, and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up."

If its in the Bible it must be "true"?


Why only quote part of it....


The Living Creatures and the Glory of the Lord


1 In the [a] thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
2 On the fifth of the month-it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin- 3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians. [c] There the hand of the LORD was upon him.

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north-an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about [d] as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, [e] like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

25 Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. 26 Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, [f] and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD . When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.


So lets hear what people think is going on here, and what did he "see".
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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This is not about proving the evoluion's theory by argument ... its about proving it by logical scientific reasoning ...

Evolution has solid evidence behind it. There is no solid evidence for the beginnings of life as described in the Quran.

Your attempts at data-mining one piece of scientific evidence and then misconstruing it in an attempt to discredit science instead of proving that your view has scientific validity are telling.

The DNA finds, though not yet conclusive, are interesting to evolutionary theory because they point to humans and chimps branching off from a common ancestor earlier than previously thought. Since we know the rate that DNA mutates at, it provides more evidence for exactly how and when we evolved. It in no way brings evolutionary theory into question, especially since there is so much supporting evidence from other sources.

That is the difference between science and religious belief. Science looks at new data as a positive force allowing refinement and adjustment of current thought. Religion must reject new data because it brings their teachings into question.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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"Religion must reject new data because it brings their teachings into question."

Right.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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So lets hear what people think is going on here, and what did he "see".

Well, Zeke might have just been making it up...relating a tale that was floating around at the time. He might have gobbled something...interesting. He might have just had a dream. He might have been speaking metaphorically. Without hard evidence the story means nothing.

The part No 1 quoted is the part that Erik von Danniken used in Chariots of the Gods. Erik offers far more evidence for his theory than any biblical scholar ever has. Unfortunately, as entertaining as Erik's theory is, his evidence also does not pass any sort of scientific scrutiny.
 

peapod

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Sorry Jay I cannot read the link you posted, as soon as I saw the heading "well done good and faithful servant, I left. Just so you know if I had gone to a science website and it had said "well done good and faithful servant" I would have left the site to.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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peapod said:
Sorry Jay I cannot read the link you posted, as soon as I saw the heading "well done good and faithful servant, I left. Just so you know if I had gone to a science website and it had said "well done good and faithful servant" I would have left the site to.


Its Ok Pea. Cup your hands over your ears and run around screaming "I’m not listening...I'm not listening..."

It's only the same criticism you would feed theists anyways, why not practice some of it.


BTW, Vanni posted a link to the New Advent too, but I guess you just can’t view it, because it doesn’t jive with your vibe.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Re: RE: Evolution Debate ...

Reverend Blair said:
I know it's right, Jay. That's why this debat keeps on going.


Didn't I already post that the Church has accepted the theory?

Why do you speak as if this hasn't happened?
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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You miss the point completely again Jay......I serve no one...got that :wink:

Planet you mention Roy Britton...I will get back to the rest of your garbage when I have time...I have capitalized a certain section for you so you are able to understand the point I am making.



Chimp and Human DNA: How Close Are We?
Starting in the 1970s, various teams of scientists have used the techniques of molecular biology to compare human and chimp blood proteins and DNA and have discovered a remarkable amount of similarity between chimp and human DNA at this underlying molecular level. Most scientists working in the field repeatedly came up with the same basic figure of around 98.5% to 99% similarity. Since it is known that the longer two species are separated in evolutionary time, the more their DNA accumulates differences, it has been possible to calculate from this DNA data that modern chimpanzees and modern humans still shared a common ancestor as recently as approximately 5 million years ago. This is not long ago at all, given that life on earth has been evolving for 3-1/2 billion years.


Recently the press has been full of headlines announcing "chimps and humans not as close as previously thought!" This may sell newspapers, but unfortunately it may mislead some people into thinking evolutionary biologists now disagree about whether we are in fact closely related to chimps and evolved from a common ancestor. There is no such disagreement. The headlines simply refer to the fact that ROY BRITTEN, a biologist at Cal Tech, used a new technique to recalculate some of the molecular differences between human and chimp DNA. He used not just the standard assessment of DNA differences measured through nucleotide substitutions, but also factored in calculations of the amount of so-called "indels" (insertions and deletions) of additional DNA fragments which seem to occur particularly in the sections of DNA generally thought of as "non-functional." With this new method (whose overall significance and validity will have to be further evaluated), Britten still comes up with a figure of at least 95% DNA similarity between humans and chimpanzees. (By contrast, for instance, humans and their more distantly related mammalian relatives the mice, have less than 60% DNA in common.)


So, whether you prefer the 95%, 98.5% or 99% figures when describing the genetic relatedness of humans and chimpanzees, it remains absolutely clear that humans and chimps are indeed extremely closely related,and that chimpanzees remain by far our closest relatives among currently living species. (We were even more closely related to our various hominid ancestor species, but they are all extinct now.)

NOW PLANET READ THIS LAST PARAGRAPH VERY CAREFULLY

Roy Britten himself points out that "a large number of these 5 percent of variations are relatively unimportant," and adds that these figures continue to support the conclusion that the human line and the chimp line diverged from a common ancestor roughly 5 million years ago.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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Winnipeg
Didn't I already post that the Church has accepted the theory?

Why do you speak as if this hasn't happened?

Which church? You know as well as I do that there is no single church. Anti-evolutionism isn't even restricted to a single religion, as Planet_EN's reference to the Quran points out.