We are part of that balance though. Granted we have tipped it so far in our favour. The only way we can ensure a balance( at this time) is through responsible hunting. That is providing the natural predators are capable of making a comeback.
Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta caribou
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RE: Environmentalists loo
Well, if the natural predators come back....
I hope it is in your neighbourhood, not mine.
Well, if the natural predators come back....
I hope it is in your neighbourhood, not mine.
well, we can always introduce new predators (remember the proposal to introduce lions, cheetahs, elephants, and a few others to the middle of america to preserve them? )
edit: brooks: i have lived around natural predators my entire life and it is a matter of learning how to live with them. (that would be blackbears, grizzleybears, cougars)
edit: brooks: i have lived around natural predators my entire life and it is a matter of learning how to live with them. (that would be blackbears, grizzleybears, cougars)
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
Oh, I agree....
I just wish my first 3 kids had figured that out sooner in life, while they still had the chance.
the caracal kid said:
Oh, I agree....
I just wish my first 3 kids had figured that out sooner in life, while they still had the chance.
The Alberta sub-species is not the same as the Manitoba sub-species though. Yours is endangered and ours is not. If the situation were reversed, I hope you'd complain about my provincial government.
Reverend Blair said:
Oh yeah.
Different. Like cats and dogs. Night and day. Have and Have-Not.
I get it.
Whatever.
You can be all "Let's save the poor caribou", and stuff.... but I know better.
RE: Environmentalists loo
Look, Dino, you aren't a biologist and neither am I. I am smart enough that when a biologist says something is a different sub-species that I listen to him though.
By the way, that $400 cheque you got could have been way bigger if Ralphie wasn't an idiot. He got you the worst oil deal on the planet.
Look, Dino, you aren't a biologist and neither am I. I am smart enough that when a biologist says something is a different sub-species that I listen to him though.
By the way, that $400 cheque you got could have been way bigger if Ralphie wasn't an idiot. He got you the worst oil deal on the planet.
RE: Environmentalists loo
Oh yeah...
Different sub-species.
Hatfields and McCoys.
The Alberta Caribou and Manitoba Caribou have MAJOR differences.
The only thing keeping the peace are those neighbourly Saskatchewan Caribou. (Although.... I hear they are just Elk with lipstick....)
Oh yeah...
Different sub-species.
Hatfields and McCoys.
The Alberta Caribou and Manitoba Caribou have MAJOR differences.
The only thing keeping the peace are those neighbourly Saskatchewan Caribou. (Although.... I hear they are just Elk with lipstick....)
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
I guess as a newbie, you flew by my post but I think I posted a direct quote from the government site that says wolves are the biggest cause of death to caribou in Alberta. I'd say that's a natural predator.
Additionally, you must have missed the facts posted from the petition stating that in 1981 there were 1500-3500 caribou in Alberta. Now there are an estimated 3000. These facts contradict any claim that the population has declined in the last 25 years.
the caracal kid said:
I guess as a newbie, you flew by my post but I think I posted a direct quote from the government site that says wolves are the biggest cause of death to caribou in Alberta. I'd say that's a natural predator.
Additionally, you must have missed the facts posted from the petition stating that in 1981 there were 1500-3500 caribou in Alberta. Now there are an estimated 3000. These facts contradict any claim that the population has declined in the last 25 years.
i read your post, but you forgot to mention that changes in environment due to logging results in younger forest which attracts moose, deer, and elk which are natural prey to the wolves. the wolves then prey on the caribou.
restoring the natural balance is about restoring the natural balance of the entire ecosystem.
It is also the governments own estimates that claim the pop has declined by 90%, an organization that tends to downplay population loss.
restoring the natural balance is about restoring the natural balance of the entire ecosystem.
It is also the governments own estimates that claim the pop has declined by 90%, an organization that tends to downplay population loss.
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
Actually, I read all sorts of reports, government and otherwise, but the most important one is the petition provided by the group that objects to the decline of the caribou population and they have provided info that contradicts their own petition. Additional reports suggest that it is fairly difficult to estimate the current population due to the difficulty in tracking and tagging animals. Other reports suggest that there is no accurate information prior to 20 years ago. I think the whole petition is, as stated, nothing more than testing the latest new regulation about protecting species. If you read their original article, they talk about the caribou as the relative of Santa's reindeer ... making the whole thing a joke. Is anyone really supposed to take this seriously?
the caracal kid said:
Actually, I read all sorts of reports, government and otherwise, but the most important one is the petition provided by the group that objects to the decline of the caribou population and they have provided info that contradicts their own petition. Additional reports suggest that it is fairly difficult to estimate the current population due to the difficulty in tracking and tagging animals. Other reports suggest that there is no accurate information prior to 20 years ago. I think the whole petition is, as stated, nothing more than testing the latest new regulation about protecting species. If you read their original article, they talk about the caribou as the relative of Santa's reindeer ... making the whole thing a joke. Is anyone really supposed to take this seriously?
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
Let me go see ... how about this one from CPAWS: “While Alberta has adopted a caribou recovery plan, the province isn’t taking any meaningful steps to maintain herds at immediate risk of extinction. It’s still allowing logging and petroleum development in their range. I’m sure Santa wouldn’t approve,” said Helene Walsh of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society (CPAWS) – Edmonton chapter.
If that doesn't turn the entire issue into a joke, I don't know what does.
I have a few more, but I'd have to search through the sites I looked at a couple of days ago. Here's the one that looks at population trends: http://www3.gov.ab.ca/srd/fw/status/reports/caribou/pop.html
From this article: "However, there was insufficient data to determine if the rate of increase was significantly different from zero." meaning there may not be a declining population. Is it 0.08 or 0 and should we base our predictions on uncertain statistics?
Finally, lets realize that caribou are like nomads so the population may just be moving to Manitoba because of climate change and a lower wolf population.
the caracal kid said:
Let me go see ... how about this one from CPAWS: “While Alberta has adopted a caribou recovery plan, the province isn’t taking any meaningful steps to maintain herds at immediate risk of extinction. It’s still allowing logging and petroleum development in their range. I’m sure Santa wouldn’t approve,” said Helene Walsh of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society (CPAWS) – Edmonton chapter.
If that doesn't turn the entire issue into a joke, I don't know what does.
I have a few more, but I'd have to search through the sites I looked at a couple of days ago. Here's the one that looks at population trends: http://www3.gov.ab.ca/srd/fw/status/reports/caribou/pop.html
From this article: "However, there was insufficient data to determine if the rate of increase was significantly different from zero." meaning there may not be a declining population. Is it 0.08 or 0 and should we base our predictions on uncertain statistics?
Finally, lets realize that caribou are like nomads so the population may just be moving to Manitoba because of climate change and a lower wolf population.
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
Let's put it this way, those "glib" comments, combined with this statement: "The petition marks the second legal action by Sierra Legal to test the strength of the federal Species at Risk Act, following a recently launched federal court case earlier this month to seek emergency action to protect British Columbia’s endangered spotted owl", in their news release makes the whole thing look like a comedy of 'Santa meets new Species at Risk Act'. If CPAWS wants to be taken seriously, they should check their facts and exclude information in their petition that contradicts their claim, forget about being cute with the Santa stuff and neglect to mention that they are testing a new regulation.
I highly doubt the government of Canada is interested in cute contractictions that are testing regulations ... reminiscent of small children pushing their parents buttons. Be serious or quit wasting everyone's time ... is just how I see it.
... in their own words: http://www.sierralegal.org/m_archive/pr05_12_21.html
Edited to add: Perhaps it would be best if CPAWS simply re-evaluated their choice of spokesperson and rechecked their petition facts. A legal document needs to be airtight and I only skimmed to paragraph 25 to find a serious problem. Maybe the caribou are in trouble, but that is not clear in the information provided by CPAWS. The CPAWS petition and the news article seem to be just another random Greenpeace V Oil and Logging issue.
the caracal kid said:
Let's put it this way, those "glib" comments, combined with this statement: "The petition marks the second legal action by Sierra Legal to test the strength of the federal Species at Risk Act, following a recently launched federal court case earlier this month to seek emergency action to protect British Columbia’s endangered spotted owl", in their news release makes the whole thing look like a comedy of 'Santa meets new Species at Risk Act'. If CPAWS wants to be taken seriously, they should check their facts and exclude information in their petition that contradicts their claim, forget about being cute with the Santa stuff and neglect to mention that they are testing a new regulation.
I highly doubt the government of Canada is interested in cute contractictions that are testing regulations ... reminiscent of small children pushing their parents buttons. Be serious or quit wasting everyone's time ... is just how I see it.
... in their own words: http://www.sierralegal.org/m_archive/pr05_12_21.html
Edited to add: Perhaps it would be best if CPAWS simply re-evaluated their choice of spokesperson and rechecked their petition facts. A legal document needs to be airtight and I only skimmed to paragraph 25 to find a serious problem. Maybe the caribou are in trouble, but that is not clear in the information provided by CPAWS. The CPAWS petition and the news article seem to be just another random Greenpeace V Oil and Logging issue.
and...
the only basis to test the strength of the act would be if there were some basis for the claim. to make a baseless challenge would undermine the credibility of the seirra defense fund.
the only basis to test the strength of the act would be if there were some basis for the claim. to make a baseless challenge would undermine the credibility of the seirra defense fund.
Re: RE: Environmentalists look to Ottawa to save Alberta car
Exactly. So why do they include in their petition that there were between 1500 and 3500 caribou in Alberta in 1981, there are 3000 now and then suggest that this somehow represents a decline in the population. It doesn't even matter how they embelish their petition once this information is included. The numbers are the same for 25 years. End of reading for most interested people.
the caracal kid said:
Exactly. So why do they include in their petition that there were between 1500 and 3500 caribou in Alberta in 1981, there are 3000 now and then suggest that this somehow represents a decline in the population. It doesn't even matter how they embelish their petition once this information is included. The numbers are the same for 25 years. End of reading for most interested people.