Edmonton teacher suspended for giving 0s

[karrie]

At I first glance of this thread title, damn straight!! He should be fired, strung up, made an example of!! Giving O's is completely unacceptable practice for ANYone in a position of authority. But, then I looked closer. Well, giving 0's, that's a whole other story.

Any school that does not give zeros on incomplete assignments, is attempting to absolve itself of the integral part of the education system....teaching kids HOW to learn. More and more, the schools don't want to teach the kids to manage themselves in school. They don't tell kids to tie their shoes, they don't tell kids to clean up their desks, they don't teach printing, they don't push for neat work. They are skipping over the things that matter, and trying to focus instead on the measurables, because that's what school boards and bureaucrats want to hear about. What's bit them in the ass, is that without neat work, clean desks, organized binders, the measurables don't get done either. So, what do you do when your **** attitude about making sure the kids have some organizational skills starts to rear its head with incomplete test scores? Why, cook up some bull about how those scores don't matter anyway, and ignore the gaps. That way, it still looks like you're running an education system, and not an insane asylum.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

A mark of 1 for an incomplete or missed assignment? What would happen in the real world....when they have to work for a living? You get a pass for not completing assignments? You get a pat on the back for trying?

Perhaps -1 would have worked better. For those that learned math, that is less than 0. Of course this may need to be explained to the graduates of this particular school.

 

[hermanntrude]

Explains a lot that is wrong with society. It is no longer PC to suffer consequences of your actions. Can't fail the little darlins just because they don't do the work. Then when they "graduate" they are unleashed on an unsuspecting business world that expects employees to show up on time, dressed for work and able to follow simple instructions. Then they wonder why no one wants to pay them more than minimum wage.
I wish there were more teachers like that one. Bet he has lots of problems with his union leaders.

there are more. I am one

 

[Spade]

I think we are making assumptions here, that in the school there were no consequences for missing assignments or tests, and that missed work did not affect grades.
Besides, I have no idea what a mark, say of 72 in Grade 11 Dutch, represents.
Hypothetical:
Suppose you had twin girls in Grade 11. One was taking Dutch from Teacher A and one from Teacher B. One twin receives a 67 on a test, and the other a mark of 82 on the same unit. What are your conclusions?

Bump

 

[hermanntrude]

Within a school, teachers must be consistent or all hell breaks loose among teachers, between the administraion and teachers, and with parents who rightly argue discriminatory practice. .

Ive never experienced this. In truth, even with very clearly defined marking schemes and policies, different teachers mark very differently, and no hell is broken loose at all.

 

[Spade]

Ive never experienced this. In truth, even with very clearly defined marking schemes and policies, different teachers mark very differently, and no hell is broken loose at all.

Gosh; no consistency, yet passivity. What are we teaching our kids?

 

[hermanntrude]

Bump

my conclusion is that they both did alright, although, assuming fairly consistent marking (and in reality I would expect to know which teacher had the reputation for leniency and which for toughness),one did a bit better than the other. I usually assume an uncertainly of at least 5% in either direction for any two teachers. In many cases I have seen variations larger than this.

That's why we use committee marking for large groups of people and assign questions to markers rather than entire papers. The variance cancels out somewhat in those cases, and anyone who tends to be lenient is lenient on ALL papers.

 

[Spade]

Hell seems hot at Ross Sheppard.

 

[hermanntrude]

Gosh; no consistency, yet passivity. What are we teaching our kids?

If you have ever studied science and/or people you will know that it is impossible to make any judgement which is non-quantitative and be without bias. You should submit to this observation, you cannot fight it. it is part of the nature of your own mind and to pretend it isn't is to deny one's own weaknesses as a human being.

I always tell my students that it depends on who is marking their exams as to how they will be marked. It is the truth, and we should face up to it.

of course, at the same time I am working hard on convincing my peers to use marking schemes and common sense to keep the bias to a minimum

 

[Spade]

my conclusion is that they both did alright, although, assuming fairly consistent marking (and in reality I would expect to know which teacher had the reputation for leniency and which for toughness),one did a bit better than the other. I usually assume an uncertainly of at least 5% in either direction for any two teachers. In many cases I have seen variations larger than this.

That's why we use committee marking for large groups of people and assign questions to markers rather than entire papers. The variance cancels out somewhat in those cases, and anyone who tends to be lenient is lenient on ALL papers.

The numerical grade is meaningless as you point out. It is impossible without further scrutiny to determine which twin did better. We seem to believe numbers are truth.

 

[karrie]

The numerical grade is meaningless as you point out. It is impossible without further scrutiny to determine which twin did better. We seem to believe numbers are truth.

So, in gradeless education, how do you make sure the student is, in fact, getting an education?

 

[hermanntrude]

The numerical grade is meaningless as you point out. It is impossible without further scrutiny to determine which twin did better. We seem to believe numbers are truth.

Not exactly meaningless, but yes... there needs to be more than a simple number. The number should be put in context and the meaning of "uncertainty" should be understood.

As a scientist, I get this. And part of my job as I see it, is to help as many people as possible to also get it.

My institution attempts to make this uncertainty a little clearer by rounding every student's grade to the nearest 5%. I find this to be unacceptable, because although it is possible that a student who gets 47.5% is equally capable as a student who got 52.4%, it should not be taken as read.

A better, although less easy method, is to give the percentages and either hope that the outside world understands the inherent uncertainty in the number or include a "plus or minus". However, that would go down like a lead balloon with poison on it which smelled kinda bad in the world of politics.

So, in gradeless education, how do you make sure the student is, in fact, getting an education?

The main problem here is black and white versus "shades of grey".

NOTHING is black and white. everything is shades of grey. You cannot be 100% wrong unless you do nothing at all. Which is why unsubmitted assignments should be given a zero.

 

[karrie]

Hermann, did you read my perhaps politically incorrect opinion of why an institution would choose to eliminate zeros? Care to let me know if I'm being overly jaded? Given your background I'm curious of your view.

 

[Spade]

So, in gradeless education, how do you make sure the student is, in fact, getting an education?

I never said that. However, numerical grades seem to have assumed mystical proportions.
Tests are arbitrary.
* Do they represent what was taught?
* Are the based strictly on the mandated cirriculum?
* Do the test items measure what they purport to measure?
* Have the items been tested statistically?
* Are the same tests used by different teachers?
* Are they graded on well-defined criteria?
* Are the tests of manageable lengths?
* Are the mean and standard deviation used to make student comparisons?.
* Are teaching methods uniform?
* Could the grades be defended in a court?

 

[karrie]

I've given more than one kid the lecture on why the actual grades don't matter, the skills do. But, if you can't let the skills factor into the grade, then what have you got? Do you let a kid graduate who's smart as a whip but won't do the work?

 

[petros]

Measure twice, cut once.

 

[Spade]

I've given more than one kid the lecture on why the actual grades don't matter, the skills do. But, if you can't let the skills factor into the grade, then what have you got? Do you let a kid graduate who's smart as a whip but won't do the work?

If a student has mastered the material, of what use is the drudgery? Are we teaching slavery or fostering creativity and rewarding excellence?

 

[petros]

Cash incentives.

 

[TenPenny]

I remember grade 9, when the teacher assigned a bunch of problems from the book, I'd do one of each type to make sure I could do them, and then sit beside him while we did the crossword in the paper and ran through the bridge column. One of my classmates complained one day, and he looked at me, and asked if I'd done all of the questions. 'No,' I replied, 'but I did enough of each to know that I can do them all'.

He looked at the complainer, and smiled, and we went back to the crossword.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Bump

I've never been able to figure out what "Bump" means as a comment. Could you please enlighten me?