Dealing with China

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Pardon me, Chris, I didn't see this post at first. Neither did I know you were referring to this China thread when we communicated earlier.
Why would you advocate that Canada become involved in the International forum of countries which willingly support China in any way?
Why not? What is wrong with that?
They were never a friend of the Western world, nor do they stand for any of the same kind of values..
Well, what can I say to that? They are a different people... they are Asians! Their culture, their language is different than ours. Does that mean they are not as human as we are?
I have an article here you should read, Chris. You need to get your head out of the old century and embrace the 21st with open arms and even more open mind!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/simon_barnes/article3723595.ece

Du weißt, als Deutsche, Völkermord kann nicht vergessen/bestritten werden, aber du sagst auf indirekter Weise das Gegenteil, daß Kanada det preisen soll.. also die chinesische Regierung soll verhimmelt werden
Lieber Christ, bitte, lege mir keine Worte in den Mund! Nichts von dem habe ich gesagt! Du hast so Deine eigene Idee und rennst damit los. Ich halte Dir Deine Jugend zu Gute, Du musst noch etwas reifen.:smile:
... Siehste wo ich herkomme?
Ja, vom Frisoer!:lol:;-);-)
I think Canada is absolutely in the right in everything it does in not being direct with the Chinese gov't.
If that is your opinion.... fine, I respect that.
Half of Vancouver and 20% of Toronto would be in an uproar if Canada actively promoted the Chinese government.
Who talks about promoting? I didn't! Why not just be decent and civil with them? Which we were, only Harper seems to have a little tick. He makes a great effort to please the US and just as great an effort to please Israel! Both states have a terrible human rights record. How do you explain that to me?
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,645
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Larnaka
Hi, Chris....

go and live there for a year! Then come back and tell us how brutal their present government really is. Oh, and please, take Colpy with you!;-);-)

Btw...
are you also still mad with Nazi-Germany? What are you doing in their Capital anyway??? Eating Schnitzel and Bratkartoffeln??;-);-)

:cool:

Nazi Germany doesn't exist anymore, I live in the Federal Republic.

Pardon me, Chris, I didn't see this post at first. Neither did I know you were referring to this China thread when we communicated earlier. Why not? What is wrong with that?Well, what can I say to that? They are a different people... they are Asians! Their culture, their language is different than ours. Does that mean they are not as human as we are?
I have an article here you should read, Chris. You need to get your head out of the old century and embrace the 21st with open arms and even more open mind!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/simon_barnes/article3723595.ece

Lieber Christ, bitte, lege mir keine Worte in den Mund! Nichts von dem habe ich gesagt! Du hast so Deine eigene Idee und rennst damit los. Ich halte Dir Deine Jugend zu Gute, Du musst noch etwas reifen.:smile:Ja, vom Frisoer!:lol:;-);-)If that is your opinion.... fine, I respect that.Who talks about promoting? I didn't! Why not just be decent and civil with them? Which we were, only Harper seems to have a little tick. He makes a great effort to please the US and just as great an effort to please Israel! Both states have a terrible human rights record. How do you explain that to me?

By becoming warm and friendly with the Chinese government, we are essentially giving them our approval, which is why I think Harper shouldn't get too close.

A perfect anology to my comparison with Nazi Germany is the fact that IBM had close relations with the regime and has been condemned ever since. Why should Canada or any other western country, for that matter, be buddy-buddy with China when everybody knows exactly whats going on. This has nothing to do with culture or the Chinese people. If you ask me, I've got no problem with a relationship between Canada and the Republic of China (Taipei), a western/human-rights-friendly administration.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
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Hypocrites and double talk!

You folk don't seem to think about the decisions you make with respect to who you "like" and who you don't "like"..... A Holocaust far in excess of the Jewish Holocaust and if we compared the number of times everyone is "informed" of Dachau and Auschwitz, Treblinka etc. etc. to the number of times we hear about those seventy odd million murdered by the Chinese government...... And Oh by the way...it's far more acceptable to do business with China and celebrate the prosperity by filling our stores and our homes with tinkets made by people who were the targets of the very govrnment we all support!

Perhaps it's too comfortable to buy products from China....maybe if the Palesinians had the means and infrastructure to feed our appetites...we'd buy from them! They've only killed the odd Israeli by comparison...and yet the free-flowing hatred for the Moslem and the Arab and the Islamist and the Jihadist know no bounds!

Oh but wait....it's perfectly OK for the Israelis to cultivate their victimhood while oppressing the Palestinians....and it's OK for the Chinese Communist Party to kill millions so long as their plastic trinkets and cheap consumer goods are available to Canadians and Americans.....

We seem to be incapable of learning.... the traders and the merchants took a potentially great nation and continent and turned it into one giant pair of lips constantly and forever seeking to suckle at the breast of unconscionable consumerism. We paid the Saudis millions while the people in that nation suffer and the message of oppression in the name of Islam was acceptable so long as the oil keeps flowing..... We created the means to indenture segments of many foreign soceties to sweatshops prepared to work women and children to the maximum to supply us with hats an T-shirts and sportswear.....

I hope you're all very happy with the world you're so eager to create.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Yes I'm aware of that C. But you are going back to the 40's, 50's and 60's. China isn't run by the same people any more. You posts are about as accurate as claiming travelling by ocean liner is dangerous and using the Titanic as proof. Or claiming Jews shouldn't go to Germany because they could end up in Aushwitz. Your references to China are historical, not contemporary.

I'm not saying China is perfect. Far from it, but the problems C references are historical and not relevant anymore. Here is an accurate report on China's contemporay human rights problems:

Amnesty International 2008 Report
PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
Head of State Hu Jintao
Head of government Wen Jiabao
Death penalty retentionist
Population 1,331.4 million
Life expectancy 72.5 years

Growing numbers of human rights activists were imprisoned, put under house arrest or surveillance, or harassed. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, continued. Falun Gong practitioners were at particularly high risk of torture and other ill-treatment in detention. Christians were persecuted for practising their religion outside state-sanctioned channels. Despite the reinstatement of Supreme People’s Court review of death penalty cases, the death penalty remained shrouded in secrecy and continued to be used extensively. Torture of detainees and prisoners remained prevalent. Millions of people had no access to justice and were forced to seek redress through an ineffective extra-legal petition system. Women and girls continued to suffer violence and discrimination. Preparations for the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing were marked by repression of human rights activists. Censorship of the internet and other media intensified....

details here:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/china

Obviously China has problems. I would agree they still need to improve. But they aren't currently slaughtering millions of people, nor are they threatening to do so.

Now compare China with Israel. Since China is 200x the population of Israel, take the numbers below and multiply by 200 and yo have a fair comparison:


AI 2008
STATE OF ISRAEL
Head of State Shimon Peres (replaced Moshe Katzav in June)
Head of government Ehud Olmert
Death penalty abolitionist for ordinary crimes
Population 7 million (Israel); 3.9 million (OPT)
Life expectancy 80.3 years (Israel); 72.9 years (OPT)
Under-5 mortality (m/f) 6/5 per 1,000 (Israel); 23/18 per 1,000 (OPT)
Adult literacy 97.1 per cent (Israel); 92.4 per cent (OPT)

The human rights situation in the Israeli Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) remained dire. Israeli forces killed more than 370 Palestinians, destroyed more than 100 (20,000) Palestinian homes and imposed ever more stringent restrictions on the movement of Palestinians. In June, the Israeli government imposed an unprecedented blockade on the Gaza Strip, virtually imprisoning its entire 1.5 million population, (300 million) subjecting them to collective punishment and causing the gravest humanitarian crisis to date. Some 40 (8000) Palestinians died after being refused passage out of Gaza for urgent medical treatment not available in local hospitals. Most Gazans were left dependent on international aid for survival but UN aid agencies complained that the Israeli blockade made it difficult for them to provide the much needed assistance. In the West Bank, the Israeli authorities continued to expand illegal settlements and build a 700-km fence/wall in violation of international law. Impunity remained the norm for Israeli soldiers and Israeli settlers who committed serious abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, physical assaults and attacks on property. Thousands of Palestinians (hundred of thousands) were arrested, most of whom were released without charge. Those charged with security-related offences often received unfair trials before military courts. Some 9,000 (1.8 million) Palestinian adults and children remained in Israeli jails, some of whom had been held without charge or trial for years. Attacks by Palestinian armed groups killed 13 Israelis (2600) (see Palestinian Authority entry)....

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/re...rael-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

Taking into account size differences, China does not have as bad a HR record as Israel. Not even close.

Now let's compare China with US run Iraq:

AI 2008
REPUBLIC OF IRAQ
Head of State Jalal Talabani
Head of government Nuri al-Maliki
Death penalty retentionist
Population 30.3 million (about 1/40 the size of China)
Life expectancy 57.7 years
Under-5 mortality (m/f) 109/102 per 1,000
Adult literacy 74.1 per cent

Thousands of civilians, including children, were killed or injured amid continuing sectarian and other violence. All sides involved in the fighting committed gross human rights violations, some of which amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity. Many civilians died as a result of bomb attacks by groups opposed to the Iraqi government and the US-led Multinational Force (MNF), while others were victims of sectarian killings by Shi’a and Sunni armed groups. Hundreds of people were abducted, tortured and murdered, with their bodies left in the street or found by their families at morgues. The increasingly sectarian nature of the violence caused hundreds of thousands of people to flee their homes, swelling the growing numbers of Iraqi refugees in Syria, Jordan and other states to 2 million and increasing the number of those internally displaced within Iraq to more than 2 million. This added to the growing humanitarian crisis. Iraqi security forces also committed gross human rights violations, including unlawful killings, rape and other torture, and arbitrary arrests and detentions. The MNF killed civilians and held more than 25,000 detainees without charge or trial, including some who had been held for several years. Civilians were also killed by guards employed by private military and security companies who had immunity against prosecution in Iraq until October. The death penalty was used extensively and 33 people were executed, some after grossly unfair trials...

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/middle-east-and-north-africa/iraq
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
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Earth as One

Stop confusing the issues here! :)

RED = BAD

YELLOW = BAD

MOSLEM = BAD

Simple stuff really.......
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
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Talloola

It leaves them with this "thing"....

Gangsterism and bloodletting....very popular among Canadians. Or we could talk about Dudley George...a man killed by police because they "thought" he might have a gun!

Candian "Justice".
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
And why all the weepiness about a bunch of RCMP officers who killed an innocent man.... C'mon Candians get behind the bloodletting!
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
36
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Nazi Germany doesn't exist anymore, I live in the Federal Republic.
Chang Kai Check or Mao Zedong and their regimes don't exist anymore either.
By becoming warm and friendly with the Chinese government, we are essentially giving them our approval, which is why I think Harper shouldn't get too close.
Is Canada now the World Police? Would you like us to do the same as Mr. Bush... sorting nations into good and evil?
Talk about getting cozy and friendly with other nations, read this here:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=8530
"There are no reports on Canada-US-Israeli consultations during these official visits. In all likelihood, officials from the respective departments/ministries of US Homeland Security, Israel's Public Security and Canada's Public Safety had meetings behind closed doors."
We have now formally cemented ourselves to the triangle US-Israel-Canada. The Hydra is getting bigger!
A perfect anology to my comparison with Nazi Germany is the fact that IBM had close relations with the regime and has been condemned ever since.
With China or Nazi Germany? I don't know about IBM, except it stands for International Business Machines.:roll:
Why should Canada or any other western country, for that matter, be buddy-buddy with China when everybody knows exactly whats going on
Could you name a few despicable things that are going on that warrant all Western Nations to avoid China??
This has nothing to do with culture or the Chinese people.
So, it has to do with the present Chinese Government then? What beef do you have with them that outdoes any atrocities committed by Western powers?
If you ask me, I've got no problem with a relationship between Canada and the Republic of China (Taipei), a western/human-rights-friendly administration.
You mean Taiwan, of course. Well, that's great! But mainland China is not western/human-rights-friendly? As I already pointed out above, the Western powers trample on human rights. Remember, a while back the Can. Gov. printed a list of countries that torture, so our law enforcement officers wouldn't send people back to those countries? Guess whom we were forced to take off that list in a hurry.... and apologize? Same guys we have now promised to stand on guard for!!!

The West is no angel, Chris! Don't fall for the war cry, "if you are not with us, then you are against us!" 8O
 

ShintoMale

Electoral Member
May 12, 2008
441
14
18
Toronto, Canada
the Republic of China on Taiwan was one party state before 1990


Republic of China on Taiwan (1949-present)

Main article: Taiwan after World War II

[edit] Tension between locals and mainlanders

After World War II, Taiwan reverted to Chinese rule and the Nationalists occupied Taiwan. The Republic of China appointed Chen Yi as the Chief Executive of Taiwan. He arrived in Taiwan on October 24, 1945 and received the last Japanese governor, Ando Rikichi, who signed the document of surrender on the next day. On the next day, Chen Yi proclaimed Taiwan Retrocession Day. The validity of the proclamation is subject to some debate however, with some supporters of Taiwan independence arguing that it is invalid, and that the date simply marks the start of a military occupation by the Republic of China.

During the immediate postwar period, the Chinese Kuomintang administration on Taiwan was viewed by some[who?] as being inept and corrupt. Many Taiwanese people were disillusioned with the incoming Kuomintang administration, which proved to be as harsh as Japanese imperial rule. Anti-mainlander violence flared on February 28, 1947 following an accidental shooting of a cigarette vendor by the police. The resulting 228 Incident became a pivotal event in the shaping of modern Taiwanese identity. For several weeks after the incident, many Taiwanese rebelled, participating in island-wide riots protesting the government's corruption and harsh rule. The governor, Chen Yi, while pretending to negotiate in good faith with leaders of the protest movement, called for troops from the mainland. The Kuomintang, allegedly fearing a Communist infiltration, assembled a large military force to quell the disturbance in Taiwan, in the process killing many and imprisoning thousands of others. Many of the Taiwanese who had formed home rule groups under the Japanese were the victims of the incident, as were civilian mainlanders who bore the brunt of vigilante retaliation. This was followed by martial law and the "white terror" in which many thousands of people were imprisoned or executed for their political opposition to the Kuomintang. Many victims of the white terror were Taiwanese elite--political leaders, wealthier families, intellectuals, etc. In addition, mainlanders were not spared either, as many had real or perceived associations with communists before they came to Taiwan. For example, some mainlanders who had joined book clubs on the mainland, deemed leftist by the government, were liable to be arrested and many served long prison sentences for these real or perceived threats.

Martial law, among other things, included sedition laws against supporters of communism or Taiwanese independence, leading to very substantial political repression. It also prohibited the formation of new parties (though opposition figures could run as independents or tangwai). Second, because of the regime’s claim to rule all of China, the vast majority of the seats in the Legislative Yuan (parliament) and National Assembly (electoral college for the president, now abolished) were held by those elected from Mainland constituencies in 1947 and 1948. The regime argued that these legislators should keep their seats until elections in their original constituencies were possible. Although supplemental elections that increased Taiwan’s representation in these bodies were held starting in 1969, the huge majorities of senior legislators continued through 1990, guaranteeing KMT control whether or not the party won on election day. More informally, the Islanders, or long-time Chinese residents of Taiwan (as opposed to the 15 percent minority of Mainlanders whose families fled in the late 1940s with Chiang Kai-shek), remained distinctly underrepresented in the top ranks of government and the party through the early 1990s, suggesting a significant limit to democratization.

from wikipedia

The ROC is not innocent on human rights either
 

einmensch

Electoral Member
Mar 1, 2008
937
14
18
Canada had a 26 billion dollar trade deficite with China in 2006. What do we still make in Canada? Canada worries about recycling, polution, workers rights and the Big Boys love it. Chinese workers cheap, few rules and we need to rely on China because we don't make anything. Great start to the end.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
36
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Canada had a 26 billion dollar trade deficite with China in 2006. What do we still make in Canada? Canada worries about recycling, polution, workers rights and the Big Boys love it. Chinese workers cheap, few rules and we need to rely on China because we don't make anything. Great start to the end.
Wrong, ein Mensch!!;-)

Our military exports have more than tripled over the past seven years!!!

We are the sixth highest weapons exporter in the world!! Our secretive government just doesn't tell us!

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/10/29/military-exports.html