Conservative Party: Comedy of Errors

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
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16
jimmy123 said:
RE. MIKE HARRIS AS CONSERVATIVE LEADER:

I think that this would be a bad idea, at least near-term.

I suspect the real reason why Mike Harris did not run for a third term in Ontario is not because of his "flight over the autumn colours" longing for home reasoning. Rather, the writing was on the wall that he was going to get crucified by the Liberals in the election since he had created too many enemies in his two terms in office, so he let Ernie Eves take the fall. Smart move. Harris may still become PM one day, but not soon.

RE. THE MARTIN / HARPER FOLLIES WITH GOMERY:

Any fair-minded person realizes that Martin wanted to prolong the time from now to the next election so he can try to repair the damage among Quebec voters, and Harper wanted a snap-election because he wanted to capitalize on the outrage over the testimony in the Gomery Inquiry and "strike when the iron was hot". I think Martin would be more than happy to run against Stephen Harper at any time, but he was concerned (and rightfully so) about being routed in Quebec should an election have been called this spring, so that's why he did all he could to avoid having to go to the polls now.

Look, both these guys are looking to attain/keep power, so when the issue of Gomery arises, we must ignore the spin from all parties and focus on what makes sense. Personally, I am on the side of waiting until Gomery issues his final report so that Canadians have a chance to examine not only the evidence but what the point man in this investigation (Gomery) has concluded so they have full information at their disposal before going to the polls.

Frankly, the fact that a spring election did not take place was a blessing in disguise for Harper, since I think he would have been beaten again and his career as leader ended. I think that was his motivation for statements he made this week to the effect that bringing down the government was out of his hands since he needs the support of Liberal backbenchers to pull it off (code for: I changed my mind - I don't want to bring down the government now and lose another election.)

RE. THE ACCURACY OF POLLS:
I think that polls in general are pretty accurate. In the last election, polls in the final stretch of the race showed that Martin gained on then surpassed Harper, exactly what was happening in the populace and demonstrated in the election results. If polls weren't indicative of what the people were feeling at the time, parties wouldn't change their strategies (for example, on election timing) based on polls. Now polls do change, but that simply reflects a change in the electorate, not inaccuracy in the polls themselves.

"Wait for Gomery" was a political strategy, nothing more. As I said previously, there is no dispute that Liberals stole federal funds. Gomery will simply decide WHICH ONES did it. So the black eye on the Libs doesn't change no matter what Gomery's final conclusion is. In other words waiting for Gomery doesn't accomplish anything democratically. Keep in mind an election is not a referendum on the Libs stealing money in the past. It is a referendum on the CURRENT SITTING GOVERNMENT. I think any clear thinking person can see the sitting government is ineffetcive, if not illegitimate. The government lost a confidence vote one week prior to the budget vote. They used a technicality to cling to power despite having lost the confidence of the parlaiment. Are Canadians satisfied with "government by technicality"? In other words, "we lost, but we want a do-over". Paul Martin himself called parlaiment "dysfunctional". The issue isn't whether Canadians WANT and election. It is that we NEED one to clarify which government should legitimately sit on the speaker's right hand side.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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members.shaw.ca
RE: Conservative Party: C

I think the conservatives if they ever want to get elected again have to have a massive policy change and move a fair bit towards the center. Far right policies are not what the people want.

Just look at polls with Gomery and all the crap the liberals have done over the years since 93 and they are very well off in the polls. And it is not because people love Martin, it is people do not like the far right wing policies of the conservatives. People see the Liberals as the lesser of two evils.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Perhaps "Wait for Gomery" was a political strategy, but it was a good one, as most Canadians feel it is wrong to proclaim guilt or innocence before all testimony is heard, and it is especially wrong to pass sentence before the trial is done...it is the Harperites that have made the Sponsorship Scandal an election issue...and so they'll have to wait for Gomery...
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Vanni Fucci said:
Perhaps "Wait for Gomery" was a political strategy, but it was a good one, as most Canadians feel it is wrong to proclaim guilt or innocence before all testimony is heard, and it is especially wrong to pass sentence before the trial is done...it is the Harperites that have made the Sponsorship Scandal an election issue...and so they'll have to wait for Gomery...

Guilt or innocence? I will say for a third time. Evene Paul Martin does not dispute that Liberals stole Federal money. It is not an issue. Everyone concedes that Liberals stole our money, Gomery's report is simply a matter of which ones. So my question to you is: to whose guilt or innocence are you referring that you'd like to see judgement on before you vote?
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

no1important said:
I think the conservatives if they ever want to get elected again have to have a massive policy change and move a fair bit towards the center. Far right policies are not what the people want.

Just look at polls with Gomery and all the crap the liberals have done over the years since 93 and they are very well off in the polls. And it is not because people love Martin, it is people do not like the far right wing policies of the conservatives. People see the Liberals as the lesser of two evils.

Can you please be more specific when you say "far right wing policies"?
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

no1important said:
You have to admit though the liberals have a lot better advisors than what the conservatives have, and this Gomery just proved it.

Point taken. Truly is amazing what a budle of unmarked bills in a vanilla envelope under the table will buy you. :wink: Nice country.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
mattyaloo said:
Vanni Fucci said:
Perhaps "Wait for Gomery" was a political strategy, but it was a good one, as most Canadians feel it is wrong to proclaim guilt or innocence before all testimony is heard, and it is especially wrong to pass sentence before the trial is done...it is the Harperites that have made the Sponsorship Scandal an election issue...and so they'll have to wait for Gomery...

Guilt or innocence? I will say for a third time. Evene Paul Martin does not dispute that Liberals stole Federal money. It is not an issue. Everyone concedes that Liberals stole our money, Gomery's report is simply a matter of which ones. So my question to you is: to whose guilt or innocence are you referring that you'd like to see judgement on before you vote?

Some people are not willing to paint all Liberals with the same brush...some people would like to know if the people representing their ridings are involved in the fiasco before they choose who to vote for...

It does not matter one bit what Martin does or does not dispute concerning the scandal...no proper decision can be made by the electorate without Gomery's report...the Cons have fervently made the scandal an election issue...now they're going to have to goddamn well wait for it...

As for myself...I wouldn't vote for the thieving f**ks anyway...:wink:
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
spoton said:
Has anyone seen the new Conservative sensation? the splice boys?
http://www.liberalunderground.ca/

Yea, the PM's Chief of Staff gets caught on tape dangling government jobs in exchange for votes for more than TWO HOURS and the Libs have everyone talking about less than one second of dead air over a 46 second span.

I must say, god bless those spin doctors. Must have the same guys as dubya down south!
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Vanni Fucci said:
mattyaloo said:
Vanni Fucci said:
Perhaps "Wait for Gomery" was a political strategy, but it was a good one, as most Canadians feel it is wrong to proclaim guilt or innocence before all testimony is heard, and it is especially wrong to pass sentence before the trial is done...it is the Harperites that have made the Sponsorship Scandal an election issue...and so they'll have to wait for Gomery...

Guilt or innocence? I will say for a third time. Evene Paul Martin does not dispute that Liberals stole Federal money. It is not an issue. Everyone concedes that Liberals stole our money, Gomery's report is simply a matter of which ones. So my question to you is: to whose guilt or innocence are you referring that you'd like to see judgement on before you vote?

Some people are not willing to paint all Liberals with the same brush...some people would like to know if the people representing their ridings are involved in the fiasco before they choose who to vote for...

It does not matter one bit what Martin does or does not dispute concerning the scandal...no proper decision can be made by the electorate without Gomery's report...the Cons have fervently made the scandal an election issue...now they're going to have to goddamn well wait for it...

As for myself...I wouldn't vote for the thieving f**ks anyway...:wink:

Holy...don't burst an artery. You bring an interesting point, though. Why not paint all Libs with the same brush. The Libs do it all the time when a renegade Conservative MP pipes up...
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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RE: Conservative Party: C

Can you please be more specific when you say "far right wing policies"?

SSM, Marijuana Laws, Health care, environment,Taxes, Religion, abortion, crime and punishment, military and most of their policy handbook.

But since you are so far right their policies would seem normal to you.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

no1important said:
Can you please be more specific when you say "far right wing policies"?

SSM, Marijuana Laws, Health care, environment,Taxes, Religion, abortion, crime and punishment, military and most of their policy handbook.

But since you are so far right their policies would seem normal to you.

you didn't mention any policy you just listed off issues. what are these right wing policies of which you speak? give me two examples.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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RE: Conservative Party: C

Sorry matyaloo I do not make a habit of debating with people who flame, incite or troll.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

no1important said:
Sorry matyaloo I do not make a habit of debating with people who flame, incite or troll.

whatever that means.

anyway, I will give you an example: same sex marriage. polls show that the opinion in this country is basically 1/3 pro, 1/3 con, 1/3 not sure yet. SO! If you are pro, you represent 1/3 of the population. Supporting some kind of limit on changing the definition of marrige, in other words, representa a majority opiionn in this country. That is hardly "far right wing".
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Guilt or innocence? I will say for a third time. Evene Paul Martin does not dispute that Liberals stole Federal money. It is not an issue. Everyone concedes that Liberals stole our money, Gomery's report is simply a matter of which ones. So my question to you is: to whose guilt or innocence are you referring that you'd like to see judgement on before you vote?

First of all it is an issue. There is no doubt that there has been a split in the Liberal Party for a very long time. If the thieves were all from the Chretien side of the party, that is very relevant.

Second of all, the claims that it was all released to the Canadian people is not valid. What we've seen and heard is conflicting testimony. There aren't a lot of Canadians who have seen every second of the hearings, and it is unlikely there are any who have read through the documentation. Justice Gomery is very likely the only person in the country who ha had access to all of the testimony and documentation.
 

mps

New Member
Jun 6, 2005
44
0
6
Nova Scotia
No one can honestly believe that the sponsership scandal won't play a huge part in any upcoming election, and as such, it's absurd to have one before all the facts are laid out; who did what, what went where, etc.

That's why I still feel that the initial Conservative party call for an election had more to do with capitalizing on the confusion than it did about accountability. If Harper was genuinely concerned with holding those responsible for misdeeds accountable, then he would have waited until their guilt was irrefutable before blowing his election horn.

Some people in the Liberal party are clearly guilty, but what remains to be seen is how deep it goes, and who exactly should be removed from office. Having an election now seems more a matter of capitalizing on the public's emotion, and less about concern for the citizens.

Clearly the majority of voters have realized this, which is why Conservative support has plummeted. Or maybe it's something else; who knows?