Conservative Party: Comedy of Errors

[Toro]

RE: Conservative Party: C

As much as you socialists can't stand the idea, the party that will replace the Fiberals in power will be the Tories.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Conservative Party: C

Fiberals? I guess that means we'll start referring to your fascist friends as Reformatories then.

I don't think you have any idea of how unpopular the Harperites have become, Toro.

 

[The Philosopher]

I don't think you know how unpopular the LIBERALS have become. For 30 years my father supported the Liberal Party. He always put signs in his lawn, was a registered member of the party, and encouraged everyone to vote Liberal.

Then the bulk of the Gomery Commission came out. Paul Martin made a "deal with the devil" to save the government. Although my father is still a member of the Liberal Party, he refuses to vote for the liberal party until they clean up their party.

He has instead started supporting the Conservative candidate on hopes that once the liberals are out of power they'll restructure their party and eliminate the corruption. As members of government they have done everything they could to stay in power.

First they allied themselves with the Conservatives with an agreement on corporate tax... the same Conservatives that they considered to be a fascist Canadian party. Then they allied themselves with the NDP, throwing in a bunch of junk proposals that is unresponsible. I'm a poor impoverished student and even I know this new money they're funneling into student services programs.

Polls are not reliable. They are the best tool we had. In the last election leading up to the last week the Conservatives were massively ahead in the polls. Then in the final week the Liberals put out a string of merciless attack ads so that they could stay in power. Martin is a man who accused Day of using "American style attack ads" to become Prime Minister.

Many felt that opposing the budget would hurt the Conservatives in Newfoundland, but it did not. It had the opposite effect. When the Conservatives proposed two times to separate the Atlantic Accord and the budget it put faith in the Conservative Party, and hate for the Liberal Party rejection of it.

As well, even some environmentalists are siding with the Conservatives, who wanted to put the Kyoto Accord into a separate protected bill... even though they've always disagreed with the science behind it.....

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

Fiberals? I guess that means we'll start referring to your fascist friends as Reformatories then.

I don't think you have any idea of how unpopular the Harperites have become, Toro.

You're not paying attention. As much as you'd like the Communists to seize power in a bloody coup, it is the Conservatives that will replace the Liberals. That doesn't mean Harper will be the PM. He never will be. The Tories will get eventually get tired of losing and pick someone from down east.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I don't think you know how unpopular the LIBERALS have become.

Actually I do. That Harper and the Conservatives have been unable to capitalise on it shows that they are even less popular.

Then the bulk of the Gomery Commission came out. Paul Martin made a "deal with the devil" to save the government.

What deal with the devil? Do you mean the NDP amendment that is popular with most Canadians?

He has instead started supporting the Conservative candidate on hopes that once the liberals are out of power they'll restructure their party and eliminate the corruption.

The Conservatives have proposed nothing to address corruption though.

First they allied themselves with the Conservatives with an agreement on corporate tax.

The Martinites always do that. I keep telling you guys that they are a very conservative party.

Then they allied themselves with the NDP,

They were forced into that by the actions of Harper. More than that, it has proven very popular with Canadians.

Polls are not reliable. They are the best tool we had. In the last election leading up to the last week the Conservatives were massively ahead in the polls. Then in the final week the Liberals put out a string of merciless attack ads so that they could stay in power.

That shows too things...that the electorate is volatile and that they do not trust Harper. Those ads cost the NDP several seats too, btw. Also, Harper's lead wasn't that massive. He was reeling from the whole, "Martin supports kiddie porn," debacle. People and pollsters were talking about a Conservative minority, not a majority.

Martin is a man who accused Day of using "American style attack ads" to become Prime Minister.

Day did use American style attack ads.

Many felt that opposing the budget would hurt the Conservatives in Newfoundland, but it did not.

Even Danny Williams feels it hurt them.

As well, even some environmentalists are siding with the Conservatives, who wanted to put the Kyoto Accord into a separate protected bill... even though they've always disagreed with the science behind it.

The Conservatives have no backing from any environmental group.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

Fiberals? I guess that means we'll start referring to your fascist friends as Reformatories then.

I don't think you have any idea of how unpopular the Harperites have become, Toro.

You're not paying attention. As much as you'd like the Communists to seize power in a bloody coup, it is the Conservatives that will replace the Liberals. That doesn't mean Harper will be the PM. He never will be. The Tories will get eventually get tired of losing and pick someone from down east.

I agree and can see that happening as early as this fall. i would not be surprised to see Harper either step down or be forced out over the summer with a leadership convention in October, right before Gomery comes out, followed by an election which Paul has promissed. An eastern leader with clout, like Harris, will destroy the liberals without changing the direction of the conservatives. However, if a "moderate" leader is chosen who moves the party more to the left, while they may pick up a few more seats down east, they will lose their western seats. So the new leader should be from Eastern Canada and firmly conservative in order to win.

 

[no1important]

RE: Conservative Party: C

Does anyone think there is a possibility that the conservatives will split back into two parties, again? Like Orchard running the PC's (or progressives or whatever, you know what I mean right?) and the "more radical" forming another reform type of party?

I will say yes.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Conservative Party: C

Harris? Come on...he and Manning just wrote a paper on privatising health care. He's still disliked in most of Ontario. He's toxic.

The Conservatives are going to rip themselves apart again and return to being an Alberta rump party.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

Harris? Come on...he and Manning just wrote a paper on privatising health care. He's still disliked in most of Ontario. He's toxic.

The Conservatives are going to rip themselves apart again and return to being an Alberta rump party.

Unless you are dead or in Winnipeg, the SCOC pretty much opened the door to private health care. What is even more remarkable is that these are liberal appointed judges making this decision, which has got to be a major slap in the face to Martin.

Although this initially only applies to Quebec, there is no way it can be stopped across the rest of Canada. Health care in Canada is due for a major overhaul over the next little while.

I think that if people in Ontario have a choice between Harris who did good for Ontario and corrupt Martin, they will go for Harris, even just to humble the Liberals and teach them a lesson. I also think Harris would go over well in the west, as both he and Klein are cut from the same cloth, and Harris will not be predisposed to move the party further left, which will be a mistake that will result in the splitting of the party again.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Conservative Party: C

The experts don't agree with your appraisal of the Supreme Court decision, Blue. More importantly, most Canadians don't want your US-style healthcare system.

Your appraisal of Harris is equally flawed. He too is corrupt. There is the matter of the graft and kick-backs on the nuclear plants, rumours of three-way election funding for government contract scams, Ipperwash shows him to be racist and had even the OPP calling him a gun-loving redneck. He helped scribble that anti-health care paper with Manning.

 

[mps]

I think that if people in Ontario have a choice between Harris who did good for Ontario and corrupt Martin, they will go for Harris, even just to humble the Liberals and teach them a lesson.

Probably not. You could stack Mike Harris against Stalin and he still wouldn't have a shot in Ontario.

You say that Harris "did good for Ontario", so can you eloborate on how his time in power was more positive than negative? Sure he cut taxes, but he also cut provincial funding to education and healthcare.

Also, I think most would want to reduce similarities with the United States - which is whom Harris modeled his platform off of.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I think that if people in Ontario have a choice between Harris who did good for Ontario and corrupt Martin, they will go for Harris, even just to humble the Liberals and teach them a lesson.

Probably not. You could stack Mike Harris against Stalin and he still wouldn't have a shot in Ontario.

You say that Harris "did good for Ontario", so can you eloborate on how his time in power was more positive than negative? Sure he cut taxes, but he also cut provincial funding to education and healthcare.

Also, I think most would want to reduce similarities with the United States - which is whom Harris modeled his platform off of.

Ah yes...but bluealberta, and the Conservatives in general do not want to reduce similarities with the US...they want to become a satellite state with options left open for eventual annexation...

Treasonous bastards!!

 

[mattyaloo]

Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

Fiberals? I guess that means we'll start referring to your fascist friends as Reformatories then.

I don't think you have any idea of how unpopular the Harperites have become, Toro.

You're not paying attention. As much as you'd like the Communists to seize power in a bloody coup, it is the Conservatives that will replace the Liberals. That doesn't mean Harper will be the PM. He never will be. The Tories will get eventually get tired of losing and pick someone from down east.

Well said. I believe Peter Mackay (sp?) will be the next Conservative Prime Minister. He got HUGE political points when Belinda got bored again and crossed the floor -- and double crossed him. Canadians will buy into that "beaten up heart poor farmboy" stuff hook line and sinker. Harper is too intelligent for the average central Canadian; his soundbites are too complex for the Toronto Star to understand. Ontarians need to be spoonfed Paul Martin one liners like "Medicare good -- America bad". Plus Harper lacks that likeable loser personality that Canadians seem to need in a PM.

 

[mattyaloo]

Of course, it could all be part of Harper's scary hidden agenda :wink:

Has the Conservative party been loosing support as of late, or are the polls just screwed up? It seemed to me that they, along with the NDP, would stand to gain some hefty rewards from the Liberals being (seemingly) on the edge of a cliff. But like jimmy said up there, Harper's overeagerness to tear them down combined with Paul Martin's relative calmness, sure put a damper in those plans.

Following that, perhaps the public viewed Harper as suffering a bit of the bloodlust, while assimilating it under a banner of "accountability"; whereas Martin stepped up and delivered on a promise of accountability with the calling of an election within 30 days of the full findings. That, to me, seems more reasonable.

Harper might have been baffled by how good his hand actually was. At first he had a big grin on his face, and felt (rightfully so) that he could take Martin to the cleaners. Then he overbet, and now he's playing catch up.

Poker analogies are so lame.

"Bloodlust"? what exactly is wrong with wanting power? Don't all politicians? Doesn't Martin? Of course they do.

As for "accountability" I didn't quite get Martin's "election promise"??? "Let Gomery do his work." huh? Gomery will do his work. Regardless of if or when an election takes place,Gomery will do his work. In Paul Martin's own words "Parlaiment is not functioned and is un workable". OK, so call an election. The only reason Martin made the election promise was that he KNEW Harper was about to try to bring the government down. The "election 30 day's after Gomery" promised was meant to FRAME the attempted non-confidence vote in the context that Harper was rushing an election. Get it?

 

[mps]

I get it alright; common sense says that folks should wait until they have the whole story before making important decisions. Harpur's power lusting is exactly the opposite of that - wanting to cease control before everything is made public, hoping to capitalize on the confusion, but ultimately failing at both.

A question though: if the Liberal government, according to Harper, must be toppled, why has he put down his election-bullhorn?[/i]

 

[mattyaloo]

I get it alright; common sense says that folks should wait until they have the whole story before making important decisions. Harpur's power lusting is exactly the opposite of that - wanting to cease control before everything is made public, hoping to capitalize on the confusion, but ultimately failing at both.

A question though: if the Liberal government, according to Harper, must be toppled, why has he put down his election-bullhorn?[/i]

The first part of your response is inaccurate. The Gomery inquiry has been made public. Every single day of it. What hasn't is Gomery's final report. Not even Martin disputes that Liberals stole federal funds. Gomery's final report will simply finger WHICH libs did it. Martin comes to us, and asks, in all sincerity, for a ten-month extension before the next election. Why does he want this time? Is it out of a high-minded desire to ensure that “the facts come out”? But that is not in question. Mr. Martin says “Let Judge Gomery do his work.” But Gomery will do his work: the facts will come out, regardless of when, or if, an election is called. An election will have no impact on it one way or the other.
So if an election is not an obstacle either to Gomery or the government, why is Mr. Martin pleading with us to forestall an election until next February, the date implied by his pledge to call an election “within 30 days of the publication of the commission’s final report”? Partly, it is an appeal to our sense of fairness: without the report, he suggests, it would not be fair, either to him or his party. Partly, there is a suggestion that it is in our own best interest, to have all of the facts in hand before we go to the polls.

Both of these would have been good arguments to make last May, when Mr. Martin called an election without a single witness having testified. A year later, they’re not just hypocritical, they’re preposterous. Is it to be imagined, after all that we have heard, that Judge Gomery is going to exonerate the Liberal party of any wrongdoing? The “conflicting testimony” of Liberal talking points, let us remember, is entirely between rival gangs of Liberals. There is no dispute that public funds were stolen, and by Liberals. The only question is which ones.

The answer to your second question is this: If an election is triggered now there would be a 35 day campaign which takes us into July. Traditionally all parties avoid elections during the summer because of potentially very low turnout.

 

[annabattler]

RE: Conservative Party: C

Let's also keep in mind that Harper was a Liberal Trudeauite, not all that long ago.
The "coalition" of Reform,Alliance,Conservative was never an easy fit...and it still isn't.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Conservative Party: C

Well said. I believe Peter Mackay (sp?) will be the next Conservative Prime Minister. He got HUGE political points when Belinda got bored again and crossed the floor -- and double crossed him. Canadians will buy into that "beaten up heart poor farmboy" stuff hook line and sinker. Harper is too intelligent for the average central Canadian; his soundbites are too complex for the Toronto Star to understand. Ontarians need to be spoonfed Paul Martin one liners like "Medicare good -- America bad". Plus Harper lacks that likeable loser personality that Canadians seem to need in a PM.

You know, the funny thing about McKay is, as much as I loathe that interloper David Orchard, he did bald face lie to him. I was appalled by McKay's actions at the convention, first making the deal with Orchard in the first place then double-crossing him. I don't know if that means anything when Harper falls, but its not exactly a positive mark on his character.

 

[jimmy123]

RE. MIKE HARRIS AS CONSERVATIVE LEADER:

I think that this would be a bad idea, at least near-term.

I suspect the real reason why Mike Harris did not run for a third term in Ontario is not because of his "flight over the autumn colours" longing for home reasoning. Rather, the writing was on the wall that he was going to get crucified by the Liberals in the election since he had created too many enemies in his two terms in office, so he let Ernie Eves take the fall. Smart move. Harris may still become PM one day, but not soon.

RE. THE MARTIN / HARPER FOLLIES WITH GOMERY:

Any fair-minded person realizes that Martin wanted to prolong the time from now to the next election so he can try to repair the damage among Quebec voters, and Harper wanted a snap-election because he wanted to capitalize on the outrage over the testimony in the Gomery Inquiry and "strike when the iron was hot". I think Martin would be more than happy to run against Stephen Harper at any time, but he was concerned (and rightfully so) about being routed in Quebec should an election have been called this spring, so that's why he did all he could to avoid having to go to the polls now.

Look, both these guys are looking to attain/keep power, so when the issue of Gomery arises, we must ignore the spin from all parties and focus on what makes sense. Personally, I am on the side of waiting until Gomery issues his final report so that Canadians have a chance to examine not only the evidence but what the point man in this investigation (Gomery) has concluded so they have full information at their disposal before going to the polls.

Frankly, the fact that a spring election did not take place was a blessing in disguise for Harper, since I think he would have been beaten again and his career as leader ended. I think that was his motivation for statements he made this week to the effect that bringing down the government was out of his hands since he needs the support of Liberal backbenchers to pull it off (code for: I changed my mind - I don't want to bring down the government now and lose another election.)

RE. THE ACCURACY OF POLLS:
I think that polls in general are pretty accurate. In the last election, polls in the final stretch of the race showed that Martin gained on then surpassed Harper, exactly what was happening in the populace and demonstrated in the election results. If polls weren't indicative of what the people were feeling at the time, parties wouldn't change their strategies (for example, on election timing) based on polls. Now polls do change, but that simply reflects a change in the electorate, not inaccuracy in the polls themselves.

 

[jimmy123]

I agree with Toro. Peter McKay is damaged goods, not only for his obvious double-cross of David Orchard, but for his weepy performance on his father's farm.

If you are truly hurt about getting dumped and want to heal your wounds, you don't welcome reporters with TV cameras to your dad's farm and relay your sob story to the nation. It seems to me that this may have been an attempt by the Conservative Party and McKay to gain sympathy by putting a heart-broken McKay on national TV so they could score points with voters who felt sorry for him. The only problem is, this is politics. If you go on national TV and look like McKay did, people may feel for you but they won't want you to become leader of the country.