Condi tells Arabs to help Palestinians.

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Would working to give a fresh start to people help at all?

I fear that hatred and mistrust might render any kind of intervention even if undertaken with the most sensitive and neutral approach possible. How can we get people to embrace their own accountability for the misfortunes that befall?

Is it pointless to send aid and try to rebuild nations after decades of conflict and as is now happenning once again in Burma...and has happened many other places...food and support is stolen before it ever reaches the people who need it most desperately?

Is perhaps the best policy to do nothing!?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Sheeesh...I'm just going to stop behaving as though I know the answer.

The permutations and variables are worse than 3 dimensional chess, which is basically a cluster phruck, and so less beautiful than the classic 2d chess.

Is analysis paralysis ?
Is ignorance a call to action?
Is there more than one culprit ?

Smoke's coming out of me mainframe, Hal.

The heat sink isn't up to the job, the plastic fans are melting....

Dave ?

Dave ?

Are you there, Dave ?
 

earth_as_one

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US foreign policy supports brutal dictatorships like the ones in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. (See post above) These unstable governments would likely be overthrown if the US cut economic and military aid to these countries.
----------------------------------------earth_as_one-----------------------------------------------

Isn't it ironic ?

Isn't it ironic that brutal dictatorships when deposed show you that the anarchy or the dogmatism that will reign to replace such dictatorships seems even more dangerous and volatile ?

They need a leader like that one in Dubai, to raise the wealth and health and productivity of their people.

Dogmatism of a theocracy won't do it. Democracy won't do it. Dictatorship won't do it.

True enough.

The pictures above resemble 9/11 images. I remember how I felt after 9/11. I felt the same way after Lebanon 2006. It shouldn't matter where innocent people live in order to care.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
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I don't have an answer. But I do know that an important part is exposing the ugly realities. Getting the information out there in cyberspace helps. Maybe if enough people are aware they'll ask better questions of their leaders.

Ultimately I believe in a truth commission, like the one that resolved Apartheid. Tell the truth, confess your sins, you get absolute amnesty no matter how horrific. (You have to live with people knowing what you did.)

Once the truth is in plain sight, change will happen.

The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) was set up by the Government of National Unity to help deal with what happened under apartheid. The conflict during this period resulted in violence and human rights abuses from all sides. No section of society escaped these abuses.
The TRC is based on the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, No 34 of 1995.
"... a commission is a necessary exercise to enable South Africans to come to terms with their past on a morally accepted basis and to advance the cause of reconciliation."
Mr Dullah Omar, former Minister of Justice
The TRC effects its mandate through 3 committees: the Amnesty Committee, Reparation and Rehabilitation (R&R) Committee and Human Rights Violations (HRV) Committee. The Commission is currently in suspension while the work of the Amnesty Committee is completed. The remaining work of the R&R and HRV Committees has been designated to the former chairs of those Committees, and now forms part of the Amnesty Committee.


http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Truth Commissions ?

South Africa's Truth Commission might be the paragon. But still there were problems with the settling of property rights. They had to really guard against the tryanny of the mob. The tyranny of the majority is often worse than that of a dictator.

commission is a necessary exercise to enable South Africans to come to terms with their past on a morally accepted basis and to advance the cause of reconciliation."
Mr Dullah Omar, former Minister of Justice


That last part, "advance the cause of reconciliation" is usually not accomplished.

And yet it is the most psychologically important because reconciliation is the most psychologically healthy.

You know, earth_as_one, that most of the older ages see the lies on both sides and are scared to the bone to say anything.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Oh good, I'm finally hearing some common sense, as I mentioned before, the arab countries don't lift a finger to help the palestinians, and they should, just like the U.S.
helps Israel, and now Israel is a very progressive nation, well educated, up to date.
I think the arabs deliberately ignore the palestinians, as this makes Israel look bad to the rest of the
world, and that is what they want.
It's too bad the arab nations are so far behind the times, a people who loves to collect
money and build 'shiny' things, but to hell with any of their people who are suffering,
and that includes the palestinians.
Way to go Condoleeza, I agree with you.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Any American who gets their perspective purely from American TV and radio is likely misinformed. That's the findings of a PIPA poll around the time of the Iraq war.

Study shows Fox News viewers misinformed about war, Iraq, WMD
Posted October 6th, 2003

I have naively believed for years that staying informed about current events by getting some news is better than blissful ignorance derived from getting no news. Then Fox News Channel helped demonstrate just how wrong I was.

The Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland conducted a thorough study of public knowledge and attitudes about current events and the war on terrorism. Researchers found that the public’s mistaken impressions of three facets of U.S. foreign policy — discovery of alleged WMD in Iraq, alleged Iraqi involvement in 9/11, and international support for a U.S. invasion of Iraq — helped fuel support for the war...

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/714.html

The PIPA Report:

Misperceptions, the Media and the Iraq War
October 2, 2003
Study Finds Widespread Misperceptions on Iraq
Highly Related to Support for War

Full Report
Questionnaire
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/p...security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

A new study based on a series of seven US polls conducted from January through September of this year reveals that before and after the Iraq war, a majority of Americans have had significant misperceptions and these are highly related to support for the war in Iraq.

The polling, conducted by the Program on International Policy (PIPA) at the University of Maryland and Knowledge Networks, also reveals that the frequency of these misperceptions varies significantly according to individuals’ primary source of news. Those who primarily watch Fox News are significantly more likely to have misperceptions, while those who primarily listen to NPR or watch PBS are significantly less likely.

An in-depth analysis of a series of polls conducted June through September found 48% incorrectly believed that evidence of links between Iraq and al Qaeda have been found, 22% that weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, and 25% that world public opinion favored the US going to war with Iraq. Overall 60% had at least one of these three misperceptions.

Such misperceptions are highly related to support for the war. Among those with none of the misperceptions listed above, only 23% support the war. Among those with one of these misperceptions, 53% support the war, rising to 78% for those who have two of the misperceptions, and to 86% for those with all 3 misperceptions. Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, “While we cannot assert that these misperceptions created the support for going to war with Iraq, it does appear likely that support for the war would be substantially lower if fewer members of the public had these misperceptions.”

The frequency of Americans’ misperceptions varies significantly depending on their source of news. The percentage of respondents who had one or more of the three misperceptions listed above is shown below.



Variations in misperceptions according to news source cannot simply be explained as a result of differences in the demographics of each audience, because these variations can also be found when comparing the rate of misperceptions within demographic subgroups of each audience.

Another key perception—one that US intelligence agencies regard as unfounded—is that Iraq was directly involved in September 11. Before the war approximately one in five believed this and 13% even said they believed that they had seen conclusive evidence of it. Polled June through September, the percentage saying that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11 continued to be in the 20-25% range, while another 33-36% said they believed that Iraq gave al-Qaeda substantial support. [Note: An August Washington Post poll found that 69% thought it was at least “somewhat likely” that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in 9/11—a different question than the PIPA/KN question that asked respondents to come to a conclusion.]

In the run-up to the war misperceptions were also highly related to support for going to war. In February, among those who believed that Iraq was directly involved in September 11, 58% said they would agree with the President’s decision to go to war without UN approval. Among those who believed that Iraq had given al Qaeda substantial support, but was not involved in September 11, approval dropped to 37%...

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/p...security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

And that's just the Iraq war. Misinformation about Israel/Palestine is just as bad or worse.

I suspect that many Canadians are similarly misinformed if they get their news from the same sources misinforming Americans.

How can you tell a cable news anchor is telling lies? Their lips are moving...
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Any American who gets their perspective purely from American TV and radio is likely misinformed. That's the findings of a PIPA poll around the time of the Iraq war.

Yeah, and I wonder if there are 'any' countries who's people can trust that what they tell
them is the 'gospel' truth. I'm sure the u.s. isn't any different. And many countries don't
tell their people 'anything', and treat them like animals, and do what ever the hell they
want, as their leader, so we all have to scrape and scratch to many different outlets so
that we can feel that we are learning the 'truth', and even then, ?.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Here's an example of what I mean by our news being deceptive. Both "news" stories below are true. But one is deliberately deceptive and leads to an incorrect perception if not read carefully.

FoxNews.com
Report: Hundreds of WMDs Found in Iraq
Thursday, June 22, 2006

WASHINGTON — The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday.

"We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon.

Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html


12 January, 2005

US gives up search for Iraq WMD

Duelfer confirmed in October there were no WMD stockpiles in Iraq
Intelligence officials have confirmed the US has stopped searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
They say the chief US investigator, Charles Duelfer, is not planning to return to the country.

Mr Duelfer reported last year that Iraq had no stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons at the time of the US-led invasion nearly two years ago.

The existence of WMD had been the stated reason in Washington and London for going to war with Iraq...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4169107.stm

The US did find WMDs in Iraq. Right where the Iraqi government claimed they dumped them. They would have been excavated earlier, except the sight was too dangerous. What gets me is people probably risked their lives retrieving these munitions in order to be able to print deliberate misinformation.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Oh good, I'm finally hearing some common sense, as I mentioned before, the arab countries don't lift a finger to help the palestinians, and they should, just like the U.S.
helps Israel, and now Israel is a very progressive nation, well educated, up to date.
I think the arabs deliberately ignore the palestinians, as this makes Israel look bad to the rest of the
world, and that is what they want.
It's too bad the arab nations are so far behind the times, a people who loves to collect
money and build 'shiny' things, but to hell with any of their people who are suffering,
and that includes the palestinians.
Way to go Condoleeza, I agree with you.

Iran and Syria are probably giving Palestinians similar support as the US gives Israel. Does that count?

How about the help the US gives Iraq? Should Arab nations help Israel the same way?
HRW 2004
War in Iraq: Not a Humanitarian Intervention
By Ken Roth
...the United States-led coalition forces justified the invasion of Iraq on a variety of grounds, only one of which—a comparatively minor one—was humanitarian. The Security Council did not approve the invasion, and the Iraqi government, its existence on the line, violently opposed it. Moreover, while the African interventions were modest affairs, the Iraq war was massive, involving an extensive bombing campaign and some 150,000 ground troops.

The sheer size of the invasion of Iraq, the central involvement of the world’s superpower, and the enormous controversy surrounding the war meant that the Iraqi conflict overshadowed the other military actions. For better or for worse, that prominence gave it greater power to shape public perceptions of armed interventions said by their proponents to be justified on humanitarian grounds. The result is that at a time of renewed interest in humanitarian intervention, the Iraq war and the effort to justify it even in part in humanitarian terms risk giving humanitarian intervention a bad name...
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k4/3.htm

Casualties of American humanitarian intervention in Iraq:

The Lancet, one of the oldest scientific medical journals in the world, published two peer-reviewed studies on the effect of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent occupation on Iraqi mortality. The first in 2004; the second (by many of the same authors) in 2006. The studies estimate the number of excess deaths caused by the occupation, both direct (combatants plus non-combatants) and indirect (due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poor healthcare, etc.).

The first survey[1] published on 29 October 2004, estimated 98,000 excess Iraqi deaths...

The second survey[2][3][4] published on 11 October 2006, estimated 654,965 excess deaths related to the war, or 2.5% of the population, through the end of June 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

UN warns of five million Iraqi refugees
Half of displaced people have no access to food aid

By Patrick Cockburn
Sunday, 10 June 2007

...Across Iraq, millions of people are looking for safer places to live, and not finding them. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) reported last week that 4.2 million Iraqis have been forced out of their homes.

There are also ominous signs that the four-month-old US security plan for Baghdad is failing to reduce the level of violence despite an extra 17,000 US troops in the capital.

"The situation in Iraq continues to worsen," the UNHCR announced, "with more than two million Iraqis now believed to be displaced inside the country and another 2.2 million sheltering in neighbouring states."

The Iraqi refugee crisis is now surpassing in numbers anything ever seen in the Middle East, including the expulsion or flight of the Palestinians in 1948...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ns-of-five-million-iraqi-refugees-452522.html

Compare those numbers to the numbers used by the US to justify its humanitarian intervention in Iraq:

US Government:

Hussein's Atrocities since 2000
Life Under Saddam Hussein: Past Repression and Atrocities by Saddam Hussein's Regime

122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000;
23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001; and
At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001.

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm

Statistics just don't communicate the scale of destruction the US has rained down on the people of Iraq. Photos of the destruction in Iraq are conspicuously hard to find. But here are some images of just the first few months:

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES OF WAR
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm


Any American who gets their perspective purely from American TV and radio is likely misinformed. That's the findings of a PIPA poll around the time of the Iraq war.

Yeah, and I wonder if there are 'any' countries who's people can trust that what they tell
them is the 'gospel' truth. I'm sure the u.s. isn't any different. And many countries don't
tell their people 'anything', and treat them like animals, and do what ever the hell they
want, as their leader, so we all have to scrape and scratch to many different outlets so
that we can feel that we are learning the 'truth', and even then, ?.

The information exists. You have to look for it.

Propaganda is easy to spot, when you know what it looks like.

I recommend reading this:

Manufacturing Consent
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman /Manufacturing_Consent.html

When you are done, you won't see the "news" the same way.