Christ became saviour when he died or when he rose?

[Harikrish]

Promise 1 believers shall receive eternal life because of the human sacrifice made by God when he offered Jesus as the sacrificial lamb. But who did God make the offering to? It appears he made it to himself. Is that logical?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Or was Jesus put to death by Gods own commandment to Moses.
Deuteronomy 18: 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

The people rejected Jesus, tried, convicted and put Jesus to death for blasphemy just as their laws demanded. Does that make Promise 1 invalid?

Jesus said his words and promises would be fulfilled before the generation of his time passed or within his listeners lifetime. What he promised has not come to pass. His second coming had been anticipated by every generation of Christians since the book of Revelations were read. Without his return all those who died in faith will remain in their graves waiting to be resurrected.


No believer is found in heaven. Even they that had faith (Hebrew) the promise has not been kept.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Hebrew 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. He appeared before the disciples and then ascended to heaven. Paul tells in the epistles to the Thessalonians about Jesus's return (the second coming of Christ). Paul talks about a resurrection to come when the dead will be resurrected and reconciled with the living believers.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18New International Version (NIV)

Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Is there a statutory period before the promise expires and is declared null and void? We are over 2000 years into the waiting and the Jews feel they should be vindicated for rejecting Jesus's claims he was their messiah and asking that he be crucified and the dead believers are still in their graves. There is no change. Before his death he made many claims and promises. After his death he appeared briefly in a flesh and bone state ,appeared only to his disciples in a disguise and then disappeared, promising to return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[Twila]

After his death he appeared briefly in a flesh and bone state ,appeared only to his disciples in a disguise and then disappeared, promising to return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

Why the disguise...why only to those whom didn't need convincing?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Why the disguise...why only to those whom didn't need convincing?

To conceal his secret identity, of course.

 

[Twila]

To conceal his secret identity, of course.

I find the word Faith to be one of those words that's used those intent on manipulation and believed by those who need to be manipulated. Either way, it's not a nice word. It's a word that is nearly interchangeable with slavery.

 

[JLM]

I find the word Faith to be one of those words that's used those intent on manipulation and believed by those who need to be manipulated. Either way, it's not a nice word. It's a word that is nearly interchangeable with slavery.

I think you might be on to something! It definitely has the connotation of struggling.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I find the word Faith to be one of those words that's used those intent on manipulation and believed by those who need to be manipulated. Either way, it's not a nice word. It's a word that is nearly interchangeable with slavery.

Don't remember who it was, but some real smart fella said "Faith is believing what you know damn well ain't true."

 

[Twila]

Don't remember who it was, but some real smart fella said "Faith is believing what you know damn well ain't true."

He was on to something...

I like Douglas Adams quote ""'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'"

 

[JLM]

Don't remember who it was, but some real smart fella said "Faith is believing what you know damn well ain't true."

Sounds like a Twainism!- or could be Will Rogers.

 

[gerryh]

You're wrong, if you don't accept him He's not your saviour.

You originally didn't say your saviour you just said saviour. So, that being said, your second statement is correct, but my rly to your original statement is also correct. Christ is the saviour whether one accepts that or not. He becomes a personal saviour when you accept him as such.

 

[Harikrish]

Jesus could not have been the saviour before he died. Only after his resurrection was he given authority over heaven and earth.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

But no one has seen him since.

 

[MHz]

You're wrong, if you don't accept him He's not your saviour.

Way to make Christ into the 'bad guy' Walter. You seem to have missed a few verses from the NT that says as the High Priest to all of Adam and Eve's children He gathers them all. That was in the original design as the ending in Re:20 was a dertemination begore Ge:1:1 was 'created' by GOD speaking a few words.
The need for the words to be spoken as GOD and the Holy Spirit had 'a child' and the beginning was what would become an inheritance to 'Him' at the appropriate time. That time (according to Scripture) is on the day 'the inhabitants of the earth' see the proof that has been lacking and that begins with His wife being resurrected from the grave before Peter is. 24 of the OT Prophets sent by God (including John the Baptist) were resurrected to the temple in the angels home, the one in Re:4. That woman is Mary of Bethany and she was the un-named disciple that John sent to follow Jesus to verify He was who was mentioned in the prophecy. That is how he completed his witness that was given in prophecy in the OT. Her testimony of that time is detailed in the writings of that part of the Gospel of Christ (4 parts in all) She was also the one of the 12 that lived the longest. That is what Peter was referencing at the end of John's Gospel. Just before death she was given the vision that we call Revelation, 3 visions in 1, the first vision is the 7 seals, equal to 7 prophecies that must happen before 'the man of sin from 2Thess:2' is exposed and the gathering that comes with that fulfilment. The term 'after that' means that vision ended and then another one started, the part with the coals is the start of the 2nd vision and the end of that vision is when the ark is seen and then the doors closed while the wicked are removed from the living. Those ones are made alive again at the GWT event Walter. I thought you should know that, Walter, .>. Walter did you nod off again?

But no one has seen him since.

Did you read the part where that was part of 'the plan'?

Joh:20:27:
Then saith he to Thomas,
Reach hither thy finger,
and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand,
and thrust it into my side:
and be not faithless,
but believing.
Joh:20:28:
And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
Joh:20:29:
Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas,
because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen,
and yet have believed.
Joh:20:30:
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,
which are not written in this book:

The bolded part would allow Gentiles to become 'believers' by reading the book and putting the mystery aside (many internal references)
once the trumps start to sound there is 3 1/2 years that will allow Christ to 'help' those He finds to 'be sincere'. On the day the 2 witnesses are resurrected there is 3 hours in which Christ kills 2/3 of the people that are alive on the planet because they are un-repented Gentiles. When the come before God 1,000 years later they are 'repented' by God making them go through the required 'corrective measure' that allows Him to stamp them as being 'without sin' and at that time He can give them a drink of the same water the ones alive after the 2/3 die are given on their first visit to Israel where God is in control.

The ones alive for the 1,000 years is a pre-determined number as they have a specific task in the new earth that requires just that many. Like the 24 Elders are just the right number to be the kings on earth for that time when just the garden is restored to Eden like conditions.

Since Jesus went on to show them many signs I guess He was making sure they 'got the message' without it becoming a 'repetition'. If it included things like having trees move from spot to spot then those are tasks that will be done in that transformation after the earth belongs to the Kingdom of God. The 1,000 years is the classroom, the new earth is when all those skills are put to use as the new earth is this current universe so it will take more than a weekend to complete. (by design)

 

[Harikrish]

The Thomas account in John 20 is not corroborated by the synoptic Gospels. It only appears in John's gospel even though Jesus appeared before all his disciples when this incident supposedly happened. Nor is this incident mentioned in the gospel of Thomas by the man himself. We can safely disregard the Thomas account in John's gospel.

 

[MHz]

The same way God will disregard you? The Gospel of John is named after John the Baptist, right? What the the name of the Scribe commissioned to do that work? Careful this is a skill testing question.

 

[damngrumpy]

Each of us has the ability to be the savior of ourselves if we conduct ourselves
in accordance with our conscience.
Christ was the champion of the down trodden and the exiled and those without
position. The for nationalistic purposes, political purposes and mind control his
message was hijacked by the privileged and today Christ serves as the major
power leaver and has little to do with his original message

 

[Harikrish]

The same way God will disregard you? The Gospel of John is named after John the Baptist, right? What the the name of the Scribe commissioned to do that work? Careful this is a skill testing question.

It is quite obvious the author of the Gospel of John did not know Mark, Matthew or Luke and therefore did not know of their accounts of Jesus. He write an independent account of his own which is why the Gospel of John is so different from the Synoptic Gospels. It was also the last Gospel to be written, and Jesus was now seen as a deity which is reflected in John's Gospel, but missing in the other Gospels.

 

[MHz]

It is quite obvious the author of the Gospel of John did not know Mark, Matthew or Luke

I'll concede that point on the grounds that the Gospel of John was written prior to 300AD which is when the Scribes by those names would have copied down what Peter and James and his brother John would have written down in flawless Greek by the tiem Peter began preaching to the Gentile in Act:10. That would have been 3 1/2 years after the cross. Saul would have had to had a copy of the Gospel (all 4 parts) as that is where the instructions on how to say a prayer is found. You can also 'Sherlock' which of the 3 books was written by which of those 2 Apostles as those 3 alone atr said to have witnessed 2 specific events. Those 3 parts cover both events. The Gospel of John is the witness of the most important Prophet called by God and it is also the bio of the woman who will be the most important to Christ over all of mankind. The Rcc's virgin Mary should be the Beloved Disciple of John the Baptist as she sat at the feet of Jesus and heard His message and she was given the 2 vision at the beginning of Revelation as well as the 3rd vision which is a vision within a vision that has 2 equally important parts. That is the vision and explanation in Re:17 and Da:7.

and therefore did not know of their accounts of Jesus.

Mark is the longer book and on that note alone it would have Peter as the author. Peter was 'collected' the day after the BD and both were with Jesus for the first passover when He exiled the money-changers. Peter would have heard the generations at the wedding where Jesus turned the barrels of water into wine. It would also be apparent from reading John that some time elapsed between the return from the 40 days in the wilderness and John being put into prison. What is important is from when God called John and the cross is that 1260 days expired as that put it as being the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. Peter in Acts:10 was the last day of the 70th week.
James and John were brothers so their version of the cross would have been gotten from their mother, Peter got his from Mary M. and the BD got her version from being there as the witness God required before the bruise to the heel prophecies and events could be completed. They were completed when Jesus said, 'It is finished.'

He write an independent account of his own which is why the Gospel of John is so different from the Synoptic Gospels.

It was also the last Gospel to be written,

Saul had all 4 installed into memory in the few days he was blind, the Disciples that came would have 'questioned' him and known that to be true as they had heard the very same version themselves. When Saul entered the Nations he had a hard copy of those 4 books and they were written in flawless Greek already so it was Jews in Greece who would have been reached first. It is not unlike that Saul was the one who took Jesus's mom and the BD to Greece as the 12 Apostles were under prophecy to stay in Jerusalem and endure the Luke:21:12-24 prophecies before they would be travelling into the Nations.

Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.

Lu:21:12:
But before all these,
they shall lay their hands on you,
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues,
and into prisons,
being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Lu:21:13:
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Lu:21:20-24:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,
that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child,
and to them that give suck,
in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

and Jesus was now seen as a deity which is reflected in John's Gospel,

It is the way God did things that allows some Jews to reject the NT but still have the words that would give closure that the Book of Daniel needs, the Gospel and Revelations are the conclusions to the two bruises in Ge:3:14, without that being completed there is no closure for Adam or anybody else.

but missing in the other Gospels.

Same as a best friend's recall is different than the one that will be his wife.

 

[Harikrish]

According to Bible timelines Paul wrote 15 out of the 27 books in the NT. Paul's writing are dated around 20-35 AD. The Synoptic Gospels were written much later around 50-60AD and John around 70-80 AD.

We know Paul did not have access to the other Disciples nor did he consult them . He plainly writes about it.


Please read 1 Galatians 11-17
11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up.
12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

Paul best describes what he was. He was not taught the gospel like the others were. He did not consult the other apostles before he appointed himself an apostle, but made himself an apostle after his conversion. He claimed his authority came from Jesus himself who appeared to him in a vision and not from anyone else.

The disciples argued amongst themselves who was the greatest. It appears none of them was because Paul, who was not of the original 12 disciples, a self appointed apostle became the greatest, even exceeding Jesus's limited ministry of 1-3 years confined to Galilee and Judah.

 

[MHz]

It appears none of them was because Paul, who was not of the original 12 disciples, a self appointed apostle became the greatest, even exceeding Jesus's limited ministry of 1-3 years confined to Galilee and Judah.

When you put it like that then God was simply seeing in motion 'the least shall be exalted'. Of the 'original crew of 12 Apostles Peter was the greatest', of the originals that wtote anything we consider to pe part of the Bible it would be the Gospel of John as he is quoted and the rest was written by the 'beloved Disciple of John the Baptist', she is the most important and knew Jesus one day longer than Peter. Peter wrote to her in 1John, the one where she is called the 'elder sister' is from her and the other one is from Paul to her. Both She and Paul reference converted Gentiles as being 'their children'. Brought to God by way of the decree to spread the Gospel. The Gospel being all 4 books as they a similar rather than being the very same.

Ac:8:25:
And they,
when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord,
returned to Jerusalem,
and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Ac:14:7:
And there they preached the gospel.

This is before Peter experienced the vision that was the last element from God that was meant for them, the vision made Gentile food clean and Peter would have tasted it during the visit that took place starting that night and lasting a few days. I don't have an issue being was it an oral or written thing back then, When Saul was called to Jerusalem it was because he was a Temple Jew who traveled in the Nations and knew how to write in Greek. He was given a hardcopy of the 4 books all written in flawless Greek and yb y Jews who had never been out of Judea and had never spoken to any Greeks, yet they gave these to the Temple Priests. Walking along Saul would have come across the Lord's Prayer instructions and as he red he wispered the words and the 'sincere prayer' from De:4:30 kicked in, one time. That same sort of event should happen to the ones 'having the seal of the living God' when the coals from the alter are tossed onto the earth just before the trumps start to sound. With Saul when he said Amen he was 'in the hand of the living God' as far as the time and place would allow. The next few days he would have 'finished his reading' as the Holy Spirit would have been his companion in that time and he would have been on par as far as what he knew and what the Apostles knew. If they weren't convinced the blindness ritual would never have been done. That conversion moment must be quite important as it is covered 3 times in the NT, one is from Paul's POV and one if from the POV of the friends that were with him and the other one is the POV the one that brought the light and the words to Saul. Without Saul the message would not have been taken to the Gentiles until after 70AD as all 12 stayed in Jerusalem after Stephen was killed. Luke"s1:24 is when they would have travel to the Nations and what Paul has left there is something they could repeat word for word for word while never seeing the letters before. the would also find flawless copies of their 3 books and the one written by the Beloved Disciple. They would not have read Revelation and the verse below would be by James, the original Apostle that saw a vision and a resurrection from death, that he mentions the scattering it means they have all left Jerusalem and are preaching to Jews and Gentiles alike until death.

The same prayer that was available to Daniel was available to all Jews when the Temple was taken down. The Temple money-changers would have stripped it bare of all treasures before that happened. The prayers said are said to enter the temporary Temple in Re:4 and the words that a person says after they say the Lords prayer are heard by God and Christ and the Throne and all the others there. The prayers of the 24 elders are the coals that are tossed to the earth before it experiences 4 days of 'birth pangs' and them 1260 days of hell and death, in that order. Re:11 picks up Luke:21:25 when those trumps begin to sound. The the seals prophecy the 5th trump is the hell in the 4th seal and death is referencing the 6th trump where Satan and Co kill 1/3 of the people on earth. They then kill the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem and 4 days later they rise from the grave and in the next few hours Christ kills 2/3 of all the people alive on the planet. In the few hours after that He resurrectes all that qualify for life in Re:20:4. By evening of that same day all of that is accomplished so that when Christ says , 'It is finished.' as He pours out the last vial

Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.

According to Bible timelines Paul wrote 15 out of the 27 books in the NT.

In this case that could be a topic or you could just accept that my view is coming from the stance that one God used 40 Scribes to deliver a message to the people that would be affected by what words He was going to say. The beginning and end is an easy read, 6 chapters rather than 6 books. The rest of the Bible is all about the two bruises from Ge:3:15, all things connected to the bruise to the heel was completed with the cross, all things to do with the bruise to Satan's head. What Peter taught in Acts:10 would have been the same message that Paul had written down in his journeys. Fun or fear during the shipwrecks, fun if he knew there was more to write, fear if that was an unknown factor.
What was said in all of the NT is valid if you are trying to fill in the details. Since the heel bruise is completed you and breeze through the OT prophecy and sort it into the fulfilled and not fulfilled. The time of the cross was God as a Priest, on the day the 7th trump sounds it is God arriving as a King

Paul's writing are dated around 20-35 AD.

They aren't to be taken separately, they are part of a single work, one author, Paul was 1/40 of all Scribes God used. In WWII that was how many divisions the a-bomb had and like each each was only given a small part. None of the Scribes could have been given some info and just 'left it out' as they decided it wasn't important. The whole earth verse in Jer:25 is 'all the nations' that will come under judgement. It gets a bit 'eerie' when a prophecy verse say the area given is 1/4 of the earth, any person today would instantly say that is all the land areas of the whole earthy so no part is exempt from the OT prophecy. Pauld wouldn't have known any of that. I doubt Paul or ant Apostle could relate the 6 creation days as each being 10x longer or shorter in length depending which way you are going. When you add one zero to 4,000BC you are going back in time and day 1 ends at 4,000,000,000BC. Time is established at 4,000,0000BC as being when this earth established it's current orbit arounds the sun and moon. The old earth creation theoory is even more accurate than science today. It sums up how life began on earth, 3 lines are air, sea, and land. Plants being the first.
Stephen was killed within 3 1/2 years of the cross as that would qualify as one of the abominations mentioned in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. The return of the money changers and the blood sacrifices would also have qualified as abomination in that period of time.
Acts:10 marks the end of those prophecies and all of the heel bruise ones as that is what was 'finished', it is still one part of a two part plan.

The Synoptic Gospels were written much later around 50-60AD and John around 70-80 AD.

No. what is important is how they fit together, Paul is mostly instruction for the Gentiles, about the same as Moses adding in the 600+ Laws that the 12 Tribes lived by. The diet was relaxed as a step of making life easier while doing the publishing of the Bible. (and other books I assume)

We know Paul did not have access to the other Disciples nor did he consult them . He plainly writes about it.

Please read 1 Galatians 11-17
11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up.
12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased
16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. [/QUOTE]
Paul had the same spirit that visited Peter in Acts 10 and the BD when Revelation was written. Paul had the originals with him when he first went out preaching in the nations. Scribes at all the Synagogues that he stopped at would have made copies of them as they were going from Greek to Greek rather than Hebrew to Greek. I can give you a few examples where 'sooner rather than later' is the preferred option.

Paul best describes what he was.

He would still have had to do the 'signs following' or nobody would have believed him.

He was not taught the gospel like the others were.

None of the Apostles had 'clarity of mind' before they were baptised, the gift of languages was given in Act:2, it was not a one night deal, it was a lifetime deal, that is how soon they could have written them down. By the time Gentiles were being taught they needed to be in print, 33AD Sept 25 lol

He did not consult the other apostles before he appointed himself an apostle,

Christ chose him, just as described. Paul is part of the Apostle group in Re:20:4 if he was not already saved by being a Jew. The Church is the 'beheaded for Christ' reference, the wole of the !2 Tribes are covered by the 'beheaded for the word of God' line as a fulfilment given in Eze:39 where it ways they will all die by the sword before being gathered as the gathered includes Abraham's children.

but made himself an apostle after his conversion.

Along with whatever i have mentioned there is also the part where he spent two weeks with Peter ands the one thing they disagreed in was pretty minor, nor so minor it isn't worth looking up.

He claimed his authority came from Jesus himself who appeared to him in a vision and not from anyone else.

So do all the writers from Moses on, what isn't highlighted for us is the OT prophecies that complete this verse.

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The disciples argued amongst themselves who was the greatest.

If Paul was given several 'hardships' to remind him that his gifts weren't the end all as Paul was the only one that didn't see Jesus in His glorified body so the Apostles always had that time that 'alone'. Is Judas one of the Saints that came out of the grave and ascended to heaven with Jesus? I'm thinking not but he will be part of the 1,000 year reign. John the Baptist is said to be the greatest man other than Jesus. The Beloved Disciple was one of his that never became an Apostle. Beloved was added when John was beheaded but her personal relationship with Jesus is part of the witness that she did as part of her duty to John. She is the only woman to bring Jesus to tears. John:11 starts out with news that Lazarus is ill and Mary is with Jesus. Rather than leave at once Jesus piddles around doing a few 'minor' things and then they start off on a trip that lasts a few days. As they get close Mary runs ahead and finds Martha at the table and she tells Mary that their brother is already buried. When word that Jesus is close it is only Martha that goes out but Jesus sends for Mary as she is to be there for the tomb event. When Mary get to where they are her quote is enough to make Jesus break down and cry right there. That is the kind of detail God leaves us about how 'things work' back in the Kingdom.

 

[Harikrish]

I'll concede that point on the grounds that the Gospel of John was written prior to 300AD which is when the Scribes by those names would have copied down what Peter and James and his brother John would have written down in flawless Greek by the tiem Peter began preaching to the Gentile in Act:10. That would have been 3 1/2 years after the cross. Saul would have had to had a copy of the Gospel (all 4 parts) as that is where the instructions on how to say a prayer is found. You can also 'Sherlock' which of the 3 books was written by which of those 2 Apostles as those 3 alone atr said to have witnessed 2 specific events. Those 3 parts cover both events. The Gospel of John is the witness of the most important Prophet called by God and it is also the bio of the woman who will be the most important to Christ over all of mankind. The Rcc's virgin Mary should be the Beloved Disciple of John the Baptist as she sat at the feet of Jesus and heard His message and she was given the 2 vision at the beginning of Revelation as well as the 3rd vision which is a vision within a vision that has 2 equally important parts. That is the vision and explanation in Re:17 and Da:7.


Mark is the longer book and on that note alone it would have Peter as the author. Peter was 'collected' the day after the BD and both were with Jesus for the first passover when He exiled the money-changers. Peter would have heard the generations at the wedding where Jesus turned the barrels of water into wine. It would also be apparent from reading John that some time elapsed between the return from the 40 days in the wilderness and John being put into prison. What is important is from when God called John and the cross is that 1260 days expired as that put it as being the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. Peter in Acts:10 was the last day of the 70th week.
James and John were brothers so their version of the cross would have been gotten from their mother, Peter got his from Mary M. and the BD got her version from being there as the witness God required before the bruise to the heel prophecies and events could be completed. They were completed when Jesus said, 'It is finished.'

He write an independent account of his own which is why the Gospel of John is so different from the Synoptic Gospels.

Saul had all 4 installed into memory in the few days he was blind, the Disciples that came would have 'questioned' him and known that to be true as they had heard the very same version themselves. When Saul entered the Nations he had a hard copy of those 4 books and they were written in flawless Greek already so it was Jews in Greece who would have been reached first. It is not unlike that Saul was the one who took Jesus's mom and the BD to Greece as the 12 Apostles were under prophecy to stay in Jerusalem and endure the Luke:21:12-24 prophecies before they would be travelling into the Nations.

Ac:8:1:
And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria,
except the apostles.

Lu:21:12:
But before all these,
they shall lay their hands on you,
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues,
and into prisons,
being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Lu:21:13:
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Lu:21:20-24:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
and let them which are in the midst of it depart out;
and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance,
that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child,
and to them that give suck,
in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


It is the way God did things that allows some Jews to reject the NT but still have the words that would give closure that the Book of Daniel needs, the Gospel and Revelations are the conclusions to the two bruises in Ge:3:14, without that being completed there is no closure for Adam or anybody else.


Same as a best friend's recall is different than the one that will be his wife.

Both Peter and John were fishermen and therefore illeterates. Most women at that time were uneducated as well. That is why Paul wrote the first books in the NT. He was educated and spoke fluent Greek.

What the bible says about John and Peter and why the people are shocked Jesus surrounded himself with ignorant illeterates.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus

Also according to Mark his disciples were as dumb as the crowds because even they did not understand what Jesus was ranting. Jesus had to explain it all over to them privately.

Mark 4:34 In fact, in his public ministry he never taught without using parables; but afterward, when he was alone with his disciples, he explained everything to them.

Here we know Jesus had to explain to his disciples everything he said in his sermons.

So who was there to explain to Peter or the disciples after Jesus was gone, after he was put to death. That is why you see so much confusion in their messages. They had to be put away and eventually that too came to pass. All the 12 disciples and Paul were put to death.

 

[Blackleaf]

So it had nothing to do with his death?

Christ became our Saviour when he suffered and died on the cross for us.

my girlfriend just took a course in the differences Ger and although she explained it to me, I don't think I could do so adequately or correctly... I didn't even know there was a huge difference...but apparently the Catholic perspective is more philosophical and the Protestant more biblical or pre-crucifixion, post-crucifixion...sorry... I just don't have that level of understanding. Her husband was in the seminary for 6 years so he has an advantage that I just don't have.

Your girlfriend has got a husband?