Chavez Takes a Stand

[Toro]

I didn't say I supported what the US government is doing in Venezuela.

Yet you came here to spin their story.

What I did was lay out some facts - none of which was particullarly inside BTW since we've known oil production has been falling there for years.

What you did was show up claiming to have inside information and refusing to provide links. Instead what you put up was, "From an intelligence source (sorry, no link)."

Your "intelligence source" does not mention the pressures being put Venezuela by the US or the fact that the oil companies are still pissed off at having to pay for what they take. It does not mention the strike by management, or that much of the work is still being controlled by those who hate Chavez.

You claim that your report is for investors. It's a report telling people not to invest...an attempt to bleed investment money out of the Venezuelan oil fields. In other words, it's a report with a political motive and is spun as such.

Now I don't think Chavez is perfect, so you can drop that line. I do know that he's done more for Venezuelans and other South Americans than any leader down there in recent memory. I know the US would shut him down if they could and that they've been playing all kinds of dirty tricks, including running a worldwide propaganda campaign against Chavez.

I posted this to dispell myths created by the Left. I think it speaks volumes about the mindset of the Chavez supporters when someone says something as obvious as "oil volumes are down" that that person is branded as "toeing the Bush line" or "spinning their story." Its sad anything countering the party line is branded as spin, and any source that disagrees with the strident ideologues must be biased. How ironic is that, eh?

The simple fact is, despite the machinations of the US, PDVSA is being bled dry by a man who has replaced highly-skilled technical with cronies, and whose rhetoric is driving away investors. Venezuelans migrating to Alberta has absolutely nothing to do with the corruption of the oil industry - that's not an ideologically biased smear, is it? - but everything to do with geological engineers and other highly skilled tradespeople wanting to ply their trade and feed their families.

 

[Toro]

edit

 

[Derry McKinney]

I'm not buying it, Toro. Oil field production is down everywhere, first of all...we are running out of the stuff that's easy to get. That's not in your report. Venezuela is paying for doctors, teachers, and other professionals with oil money. Those people are not just working in Venezuela, but in other South American countries as well. That's not in your report either. Those "professionals" you speak of leaving were part of a CIA-backed strike not that long ago. Also not in your report.

Since your report was so careful to mention causes in the name of providing investment information, why did ignore these?

 

[Jo Canadian]

I guess perhaps this would be a good time to post this article I found while checking things out. :wink:


How About Hugo

 

[no1important]

The main problem Venezuela had is the US interference. The American government needs to learn how to butt out.

 

[Derry McKinney]

That has been South America's biggest problem since the beginning, No1. They have always had other countries trying to run them remotely. The result has been dictatorship and human rights abuses.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

I'm not buying it, Toro. Oil field production is down everywhere, first of all...we are running out of the stuff that's easy to get. That's not in your report. Venezuela is paying for doctors, teachers, and other professionals with oil money. Those people are not just working in Venezuela, but in other South American countries as well. That's not in your report either. Those "professionals" you speak of leaving were part of a CIA-backed strike not that long ago. Also not in your report.

Since your report was so careful to mention causes in the name of providing investment information, why did ignore these?

Right, and if they don't get their oil production back up, there is going to be less money to spend for those people. If you know anything about oil, you know that depletion of 1 million barrells a day in a region producing 3.3 million does not happen in 5 years. US production is declining about 3% per year and its more mature than Venezuela. That decline is a measure of incompetence or worse of the people in charge in Venezuela.

 

[Derry McKinney]

Not to mention damage to oil fields during the CIA-backed rich people's strike.

You cannot ignore the impact that the outside influences, especially the actions of the USA, have had. To try to place all blame on Chavez when he has been under virtual siege since taking over is disingenuous.

When that is added to the fact that you seem to appeared here solely to discredit Chavez, list yourself as being from Florida, and quote sources you insist are secret, takes even more away from your credibility.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Not to mention damage to oil fields during the CIA-backed rich people's strike.

You cannot ignore the impact that the outside influences, especially the actions of the USA, have had. To try to place all blame on Chavez when he has been under virtual siege since taking over is disingenuous.

When that is added to the fact that you seem to appeared here solely to discredit Chavez, list yourself as being from Florida, and quote sources you insist are secret, takes even more away from your credibility.

Haha, that's funny. Shoot the messenger. BTW, you try to place all the blame on the US, so what makes you so different? You get all jacked out of shape when someone new comes onto this board and posts the obvious and fairly innocuous news about Venezuelan oil production falling. Sorry I've invaded your nice little ideological world here but I it appears there is all sorts of far left-wing slant spewing forth propoganda. Thought I'd level it out a bit. It would be interesting to see how bent you'd become if I started posting links about how rich Castro is.

Even Iraq and Iran didn't seen declines like this in their oil production. It took Iraq two decades to do so poorly, and they were under sanctions for years, not to mention that it is illegal for any US company to do business with Iran. Pretty high hurdles I say. But congratulations to Hugo. He's done even worse.

BTW, I do live in Florida.

 

[Derry McKinney]

Whatever, propaganda boy. Chavez has gotten out from under the thumb of the US. The numbers on the oil vary depending on who you talk to, with the anti-Chavez crowd bellowing about gloom and doom...just like they've been doing for six years.

Not that he couldn't use help with a lot of things, including the oil patch, just that the kind of help you a pushing would spell an end to all of the progress he's made so far. If the US would leave him alone, as most South American leaders have suggested, he would be able to get that help.

So are you a Cuban exile like the terrorist the US is refusing to extradite, or are just a Bush employee?

 

[I think not]

I've read that article he posted, it's from Stratfor, he wasn't lying about that.

Now if its biased or not thats another matter.

 

[I think not]

A free version for you:

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200505171620

 

[Derry McKinney]

I never said he was lying, I said that the article was spun for political effect. Looking at the source confirms that...another right-wing think tank that supplies advice and mercenaries to war profiteers.

The availability of the article online does bring his motives for trying to paint it as secret intelligence into question though.

 

[Toro]

I've read that article he posted, it's from Stratfor, he wasn't lying about that.

Now if its biased or not thats another matter.

I don't like posting things that are copyright, but this thread was just begging for it. But thanks. If I can pull it off the net for free, I'll do so.

Oh, and BTW, well-done picking it out "I think not"

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

I never said he was lying, I said that the article was spun for political effect. Looking at the source confirms that...another right-wing think tank that supplies advice and mercenaries to war profiteers.

The availability of the article online does bring his motives for trying to paint it as secret intelligence into question though.

That's the problem. Anything that disagrees with what you (and I mean that in a third-person manner) believe is right-wing or US-biased or spun for political effect. The fact that you believe such information is used to keep investors out more than proves that you do not even remotely understand why investors - or any businessman - would use a product like this. You have no clue, yet criticize motives of people who buy this because you (third-person again) stuff all information into an ideological box and grind out into an appropriate worldview. Personally, I couldn't give a sh!t who the President of Venezuela is. But it both gauls and amuses me though that people run around proclaiming to purport the truth yet so off-handidly dismiss information that counters their worldview - and over something as fairly uncontroversial as oil production.

 

[Derry McKinney]

There is nothing uncontroversial about Venezuela or its oil production at this point, Toro. I have many clues about who hires private spooks and why. I also know that George Friedman has links to PNAC and considered the illegal invasion of Iraq a good thing because, "The conquest of Iraq will not be a minor event in history: it will represent the introduction of a new imperial power to the Middle East. The United States will move from being an outside power influencing events through coalitions to a regional power that is able to operate effectively on its own. Most significant, countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria will be living in a new and quite unpleasant world."

For those of you wondering who the hell George Friedman is and why I suddenly introduced his name, he's the founder and CEO of Stratfor.

He doesn't just accept American imperialism, he cheers it on and uses his position to promote it. I didn't know the original article was from his company, but I've seen enough like that I recognised the genre.

 

[badboy]

Too bad it wasn't a " illegal invasion of Iraq " ask your buddies in the UN what they signed in those resolutions

 

[Derry McKinney]

Nothing to do with the conversation here, BlueBoy. You want to try to argue that, start another thread.

 

[badboy]

Re: RE: Chavez Takes a Stand

Nothing to do with the conversation here, BlueBoy. You want to try to argue that, start another thread.

Just making sure you keep the facts straight.

 

[Derry McKinney]

:roll: