Changes Needed in Canadian Immigration Policy

[the caracal kid]

yes, communities are established for arbitrary reasons, and they die for arbitrary reasons as well. I say let them die if they can not generate enough interest for people to want to be there.

On the education issue though, i am in partial agreement with you. If a community wants to lure people with education in exchange for service thats fine, but the fed government should stay out of such activities. It is not the federal government's job to control migration patterns.

 

[missile]

The McCains' example of a forced community came about because of the proximity to the potato fields,making it more convenient to set up the processing plants..Florenceville just grew up around this.

 

[TenPenny]

The McCains' example of a forced community came about because of the proximity to the potato fields,making it more convenient to set up the processing plants..Florenceville just grew up around this.

Of course it did; there is a significant area of manufacturing in this area, probably one of the greatest concentrations in the Province. But good old Canadians don't want to live and work there for some reason.

"forced community" is an interesting word choice, though. Same as any resource based industry, you go where the resources are.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: Changes Needed in Can

People came to Canada because they had little choice, Caracal. The United Empire Loyalists came because they were chased out of the US. The Irish came because they were starving. The Scottish because they were booted off their land to make way for sheep. The Eastern Europeans came because they were poor and there was land here. Many of the English came to escape debts or because they were desperately poor. People came from all over because they had done something to piss of the authorities...sometimes they were common criminals and sometimes it was religious or political persecution, but they headed for the boats rather than heading for prison.

Many came without few or no skills. We gave them land as enticement. We gave them jobs. We gave them a chance. That chance always had strings of some sort attached.

My great-grandparents got off the train in Winnipeg and were told where their land was. They didn't choose Saskatchewan, the government sent them there for reasons of economic development and to protect Canadian sovereignty.

Wow, and you forgot the first wave of immigrant... The French!
Unless you were only talking about upper Canada...

 

[Reverend Blair]

yes, communities are established for arbitrary reasons, and they die for arbitrary reasons as well. I say let them die if they can not generate enough interest for people to want to be there.

But if we have no people in our north, we will lose sovereignty there. Having a population base is more important in that context than having the military there. There is also the matter of culture. The northern cultures are worth preserving because they represent much of what Canada is. As they develop they will evolve further and add more to the fabric of Canada.

To be so willing to just toss those away because you can't put a cash value on them is short-sighted.

If a community wants to lure people with education in exchange for service thats fine, but the fed government should stay out of such activities. It is not the federal government's job to control migration patterns.

The federal government is in charge of immigration. It is where the territories turn for funding for diversification and education projects. It plays a much larger role in the governing of territories than it does of provinces, but it is providing money for municipal development and infrastructure. That includes rural municipalities.

To say that the federal government has no role in this is to say that Canada should just be chopped up and auctioned off to the highest bidder.

 

[Summer]

RE: Changes Needed in Can

Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

Meanwhile, have there still be just plain old immigration alongside it at the federal level where people can go where they want to settle or start.

This way you'd get a healthy and natural competition between the various parts of Canada for immigrants, while still allowing a large element of choice to the immigrants themselves.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

But then you end up with Whitehorse in direct competition with Toronto. Now, anybody who knows anything about both will naturally choose Whitehorse, but most immigrants have never heard of it.

 

[MMMike]

Before we undertake this massive exercise in social engineering, please explain to me again why we should do this, and what the goal is anyways.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Changes Needed in Can

To allow enough development in the north and in rural areas to make them vital and vibrant contributors to Canada instead of just sources of raw materials for rich men in suits to get even richer off of.

 

[Summer]

Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

But then you end up with Whitehorse in direct competition with Toronto. Now, anybody who knows anything about both will naturally choose Whitehorse, but most immigrants have never heard of it.

So? Let them do some research of their own, ask questions, etc. Make the information available. Sure beats the hell out of treating immigrants (PEOPLE!) like they are a commodity just to be sent wherever someone else wants them, regardless of where they themselves want to go.

Canada's supposed to be a land of freedom, no? Or does that only apply to people who were actually born in Canada?

Edit: Remember, immigrants are not ALL members of the great unwashed and uneducated masses from the amorphous "somewhere else", incapable of gathering information to make a perfecly reasonable decision on their own.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Changes Needed in Can

To allow enough development in the north and in rural areas to make them vital and vibrant contributors to Canada instead of just sources of raw materials for rich men in suits to get even richer off of.

Why Rev, why?? Why would the government want to subsidize development in the north instead of letting development occur naturally based on the principles of free will, supply and demand, with each person making their own choice about where to live.

 

[Summer]

RE: Changes Needed in Can

Yeah.... agreed. Having the federal government decide where people are allowed to live... it just seems so Soviet. Totalitarianism, anyone?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Wow, and you forgot the first wave of immigrant... The French!
Unless you were only talking about upper Canada...

Actually, I was just speaking of people I'm related to.

So? Let them do some research of their own, ask questions, etc. Make the information available. Sure beats the hell out of treating immigrants (PEOPLE!) like they are a commodity just to be sent wherever someone else wants them, regardless of where they themselves want to go.

Canada's supposed to be a land of freedom, no? Or does that only apply to people who were actually born in Canada?

Edit: Remember, immigrants are not ALL members of the great unwashed and uneducated masses from the amorphous "somewhere else", incapable of gathering information to make a perfecly reasonable decision on their own.

You're forgetting that I'd make it voluntary though. It's tied to having their educations paid for, not to them deciding to come here under other circumstances. Let's face it, an American with credentials and docmentation that wants to work in Toronto can do that with little or no help. An Kurd who came here as a refugee with no paperwork cannot. The standards are not the same, the school he graduated from may or may not still exist and may or may not have the old records. So why not make the deal?

If he wants to be an engineer and Churchill needs engineers, then offer to get him educated if he'll agree to go work in Churchill.

Also keep in mind that 'd make the same offer to Canadians who were born here. Want to go to University to become a wildlife biologist but have no money? Hey, we need biologists in Nunvut...wanna make a deal?

The communities don't have the resources to develop or administer programs like that. The feds do.

Why Rev, why?? Why would the government want to subsidize development in the north instead of letting development occur naturally based on the principles of free will, supply and demand, with each person making their own choice about where to live.

Because there are people in those communities. Canadian people. If the communities grow, those people will have better lives. Because at one time nobody wanted to live in Upper and Lower Canada either and this country wouldn't exist if everybody took your attitude. Because we need to bring immigrants into this country to keep growing, but just dumping them in the major cities and expecting them to sink or swim isn't working for them or us. Because we have a duty to accept refugees who arrive here with little more than the clothes on their backs.

Most of all though, Mikey, because some things can't be measured in terms of corporate profit margins.

 

[Timetrvlr]

I posted this because I wanted to provoke a discussion of Canadian Immigration Policies. I think it is, or should be an election issue. I don't claim to have all the answers but I do think that Canada should be forthright and honest with prospective immigrants and I do think that we have the right to write contracts with immigrants for the benefit of Canada. That should include refugee immigrants. Let's face it, if we grant immigration rights to people, we have the right to be choosy, for the benefit of Canada. The greater shame is to dump immigrants in our cities with no prospects of employment and a lousy life.

 

[the caracal kid]

the provinces should have control over immigration the way quebec does.

the contract idea is fine, but should only be one option. there is no way a country that claims freedom of movement can mandate certian people must live in certian areas for certian amounts of time. that notion sounds very much like forced labour or prison.

to rev, i am not measuring things based on dollar value alone. if you want to have a gov subsidize an industry to get things going somewhere fine, but putting limitations on people's freedoms just to prop up other people's way of life is unacceptable.

 

[Nascar_James]

Canada, similar to the US needs many skilled workers for unfilled jobs every year. Instead of having a "skilled worker" immigrant category, why not come up with a work Visa approach as the US does. This way, the "skilled worker" already has a job lined up before he/she leaves his/her country of origin, and doesn't wind up working as a cab driver or flipping burgers at McDonald's. The "skilled worker" would then be able to stay in Canada through sponsorship from the employer.

By using a work visa approach instead of an immigration approach, Canada would fare better at filling many of the jobs that remain open.

The above approach would in no way interfere with the other immigration categories. Canada would obviously still allow refugee immigrants, family sponsored immigrants, business related immigrants, independant immigrants ...etc).

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Changes Needed in Can

We all accept conditions and limitations all of the time Caracal. If we feel the conditions and limitations aren't worth it, then we don't take the deal. That goes for education and employment and buying used cars in back lanes. This is no different.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Changes Needed in Can

Yeah.... agreed. Having the federal government decide where people are allowed to live... it just seems so Soviet. Totalitarianism, anyone?

I couldn't agree more. I hear so many people talking about where doctors should be forced to work, where nurses should be forced to work, where tradespeople should be forced to work and where immigrants should be forced to work. If Whitehorse can't compete with Toronto then too bad for Whitehorse. I wouldn't live up north or in a rural community because I don't want to. Why would I force an immigrant to do something Canadians won't?

 

[FiveParadox]

Agreed, Canada's immigration policy does need to be redesigned; a wish to immigrate to Canada is the highest form of flattery, and we should take it as such. We should make it easier for new immigrants to become Permanent Residents (because let's face it, I've seen it happen where new immigrants are better Canadians than Canadians are). We should make it easier for refugee status to be granted on humanitarian grounds.

As for requiring immigrants to take up residence in certain areas, personally, I think that this is a somewhat unwise idea. It violates the tenant of freedom of movement within the country. And while I do believe that the Provinces should retain a certain degree of control over immigration, overall, I think that it should remain an area of federal jurisdiction.

The requirements to live in one Province should be no different from the next; residence in one Province should seem no more "prestigious" than in another. Immigrants should be allowed to live wherever they choose, but perhaps the Ministry of Citizenship and Immigration should focus more on educating new immigrants on where the best opportunities lie.

I'm sure that if new immigrants were told from the very start that they would be practically guaranteed employment further North, then many immigrants would choose such a place for residence. I cannot, in good conscience, require a new immigrant to live in a specific area to benefit me. To do so is, in my opinion, greedy and somewhat arrogant.

 

[the caracal kid]

so do you think people should be able to sell themselves into slavery as well if they are happy with the conditions and limitations?