(CC) NAFTA is a failure

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

MMMike said:
The softwood lumber dispute has just underlined the fact that the US will act in their own best interest, regardless of any agreements or treaties. Their willingness to completely ignore NAFTA shows its worth. I can't see things changing overnight if this worthless piece of paper were to disappear.

There would be more disputes without it. Canada would have to argue in front of a US court, just like they did in the past. And Canada usually lost. There would be no softwood settlement without NAFTA. Is that better?

MMMike said:
The other case I referred to was the attempted ban on MMT. Most countries have banned this additive for health reasons, and there were studies that raised a concern in this country. But when Canada tried to ban it for use in this country, Ethyl Corp sued and we had to drop the ban.

We didn't "have" to drop the ban. Canada chose not to fight it. Maybe they would have won, maybe not. Who knows.

You've chosen one - one - case example pertaining to a chemical - the only example in 15 years - to draw the conclusion that the entire healthcare sytem in Canada is threatened by NAFTA.

One case, Mike.

One.

Does that not strike you as alarmist?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

Toro said:
...
As for not protecting healthcare, you want to give us an example?

I'm surprised you found it necessary to ask.

Supreme Court health ruling oblivious to trade treaty threats
June 30, 2005
Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, the Quebec physician whose complaint led the Supreme Court to strike down Quebec’s ban on private health insurance, celebrated his victory by going to Washington to be feted by conservative U.S. think-tanks. He personally invited U.S. health care corporations to come to Canada.

The Supreme Court somehow failed to grasp what was immediately obvious to Chaoulli and the U.S. right-wing. Overturning the ban on private health insurance will open the gates for multinational insurance corporations and for-profit heath care companies to storm the Canadian health care system.

The decision is a Trojan horse. Once U.S. and other foreign insurers are inside the walls of the Canadian health system, international trade treaties, such as NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO), will give them the weapons to fight any government attempt to displace them or even control their market share.

The Supreme Court made a dangerous oversight when it ignored the Romanow Commission’s warning that trade treaties pose serious risks that need to be considered before any major health care reforms are undertaken. Low and middle-income Canadians, especially the sick and the elderly, would be the big losers if our health care system assimilates with the U.S. market model.

It is the public, not-for-profit character of Canadian health care that minimizes the risk of trade treaty challenges. If that foundation is shifted, our health care system’s protection from trade treaties crumbles.

Government measures affecting private health insurance are governed by the financial services rules of the WTO’s General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). NAFTA’s expropriation rules - which allow foreign investors to sue Ottawa for policies that reduce their expected profits - also apply fully to the health care sector.

Canada’s trade negotiators covered health insurance under the GATS in 1994. They later argued that the existing public health insurance system was not affected since the GATS excludes governmental services that are not “in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

But if the Supreme Court ruling were implemented, Canada’s provincial health insurance plans would be thrown into competition with private suppliers. This would nullify the GATS “governmental authority” exclusion, exposing both private and public health insurance to the treaty.

Multinational insurance companies could then challenge regulations that aim to ensure that Canadians’ access to health care services is based on need rather than the ability to pay. Provincial policies, guided by the Canada Health Act, deliberately discourage the growth of private insurance markets by, for example, setting fee caps, restricting direct and extra-billing, and preventing public subsidy of private practice.

Such public policies will be viewed as illegal trade barriers. In covered sectors such as health insurance, the GATS guarantees foreign service providers the right to enter the market and full access to the same government subsidies and other advantages given to domestic service providers.

The GATS rules and NAFTA’s tough expropriation provisions would work in tandem to accelerate the growth of private insurance markets and to make dislodging foreign insurers from the health sector next to impossible.

Just as Canada’s public health care system has been built around the public monopoly over health insurance, the limited protections that Canada negotiated in the NAFTA and the GATS are based on the existing separation between private and public health insurance “markets”.

The Supreme Court ruling would destroy this basic separation, by permitting private insurers, including foreign companies, to cover the full range of health services. This would neuter the trade treaty exemptions for Canadian health care.

In their scathing dissent, the minority on the court stated that “the proposed constitutional right to a two-tier health system for those who can afford private medical insurance would precipitate a seismic shift in health policy.” For a slim majority of judges to trigger such a fundamental change in our country’s public health care system is deeply disturbing. To do so without considering the long-term consequences under Canada’s trade treaties is inexplicable.

Hopefully, this ruling will never be implemented. At the moment, it applies only to Quebec, which has asked for a stay. Government reinvestment in the public system may reduce wait times, resolving the issue. The Quebec government retains the right to invoke the notwithstanding clause. Finally, the arrival of two new justices on the Supreme Court bench may lead to a different outcome in future cases.

The crucial lesson here is that if the ban on private health insurance for medically necessary services is abolished, Canada’s trade treaty commitments will make it practically impossible to curb the growth of two-tier medicine or to reverse course and restore a universal, public health insurance system.

For the sake of Canadians’ most valued social program, let’s leave this Trojan horse outside Medicare’s gate.

Scott Sinclair is a trade policy specialist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. He is co-editor, with Matthew Sanger, of Putting Health First: Canadian Health Care Reform in A Globalizing World, a collection of reports on globalization and health prepared for the Romanow Commission.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Jersay said:
Agreed. The filthy rich get richer. And the dirty poor get poorer.

On the contrary. The "filthy rich" as you call them, employ people, but you would probably call them the "dirty poor".

NAFTA is the main reason our unemployment is so low in Canada. Without any agreements with the US, how do you think that would improve the situation? Yes softwood lumber is an irritant, but to look at one particular portion of our economy and say that because we did not get totally our way, NAFTA is a failure is akin to the poor spoiled kid taking his ball and going home because he cannot be the pitcher.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

BitWhys said:
Toro said:
...
As for not protecting healthcare, you want to give us an example?

I'm surprised you found it necessary to ask.

Supreme Court health ruling oblivious to trade treaty threats
June 30, 2005
Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, the Quebec physician whose complaint led the Supreme Court to strike down Quebec’s ban on private health insurance, celebrated his victory by going to Washington to be feted by conservative U.S. think-tanks. He personally invited U.S. health care corporations to come to Canada.

The Supreme Court somehow failed to grasp what was immediately obvious to Chaoulli and the U.S. right-wing. Overturning the ban on private health insurance will open the gates for multinational insurance corporations and for-profit heath care companies to storm the Canadian health care system.

The decision is a Trojan horse. Once U.S. and other foreign insurers are inside the walls of the Canadian health system, international trade treaties, such as NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO), will give them the weapons to fight any government attempt to displace them or even control their market share.

The Supreme Court made a dangerous oversight when it ignored the Romanow Commission’s warning that trade treaties pose serious risks that need to be considered before any major health care reforms are undertaken. Low and middle-income Canadians, especially the sick and the elderly, would be the big losers if our health care system assimilates with the U.S. market model.

It is the public, not-for-profit character of Canadian health care that minimizes the risk of trade treaty challenges. If that foundation is shifted, our health care system’s protection from trade treaties crumbles.

Government measures affecting private health insurance are governed by the financial services rules of the WTO’s General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). NAFTA’s expropriation rules - which allow foreign investors to sue Ottawa for policies that reduce their expected profits - also apply fully to the health care sector.

Canada’s trade negotiators covered health insurance under the GATS in 1994. They later argued that the existing public health insurance system was not affected since the GATS excludes governmental services that are not “in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

But if the Supreme Court ruling were implemented, Canada’s provincial health insurance plans would be thrown into competition with private suppliers. This would nullify the GATS “governmental authority” exclusion, exposing both private and public health insurance to the treaty.

Multinational insurance companies could then challenge regulations that aim to ensure that Canadians’ access to health care services is based on need rather than the ability to pay. Provincial policies, guided by the Canada Health Act, deliberately discourage the growth of private insurance markets by, for example, setting fee caps, restricting direct and extra-billing, and preventing public subsidy of private practice.

Such public policies will be viewed as illegal trade barriers. In covered sectors such as health insurance, the GATS guarantees foreign service providers the right to enter the market and full access to the same government subsidies and other advantages given to domestic service providers.

The GATS rules and NAFTA’s tough expropriation provisions would work in tandem to accelerate the growth of private insurance markets and to make dislodging foreign insurers from the health sector next to impossible.

Just as Canada’s public health care system has been built around the public monopoly over health insurance, the limited protections that Canada negotiated in the NAFTA and the GATS are based on the existing separation between private and public health insurance “markets”.

The Supreme Court ruling would destroy this basic separation, by permitting private insurers, including foreign companies, to cover the full range of health services. This would neuter the trade treaty exemptions for Canadian health care.

In their scathing dissent, the minority on the court stated that “the proposed constitutional right to a two-tier health system for those who can afford private medical insurance would precipitate a seismic shift in health policy.” For a slim majority of judges to trigger such a fundamental change in our country’s public health care system is deeply disturbing. To do so without considering the long-term consequences under Canada’s trade treaties is inexplicable.

Hopefully, this ruling will never be implemented. At the moment, it applies only to Quebec, which has asked for a stay. Government reinvestment in the public system may reduce wait times, resolving the issue. The Quebec government retains the right to invoke the notwithstanding clause. Finally, the arrival of two new justices on the Supreme Court bench may lead to a different outcome in future cases.

The crucial lesson here is that if the ban on private health insurance for medically necessary services is abolished, Canada’s trade treaty commitments will make it practically impossible to curb the growth of two-tier medicine or to reverse course and restore a universal, public health insurance system.

For the sake of Canadians’ most valued social program, let’s leave this Trojan horse outside Medicare’s gate.

Scott Sinclair is a trade policy specialist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. He is co-editor, with Matthew Sanger, of Putting Health First: Canadian Health Care Reform in A Globalizing World, a collection of reports on globalization and health prepared for the Romanow Commission.

It is interesting that you found this, an article written by a contributor to the Romanow Commission to support your claim. There is obviously no bias there, right?

If NAFTA forces us, somehow, to actually deal with our health care system without all the scare tactics from both sides, then it will be worth every dot of ink on the paper. If it forces us to look at alternative delivery sources, yes, including private delivery sources, then it will be well worth it. The Supreme Court decision basically was an affirmation of our human rights as well, were in the bottom line was that it was against the human rights of Canadians to be forced to die in waiting lines due to the monopoly of a one tier public health care system. Fear mongers will oppose any changes, but for those of us who wish to explore any and all alternatives to our system in order to make it more efficient, we are all for this type of review.

Long way of saying that, IMO, NAFTA may be the saviour of our health care system, as opposed to the fearmongering of the people who who oppose it.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Jay said:
MMMike said:
I used to be a big fan of NAFTA... but over the years I am less so. I believe in free trade, and believe firmly that FTA/NAFTA has contributed greatly to Canada's wealth. That said, two words: softwood lumber. This case showed clearly that agreement or not, the US would have its own way, and that Canada would bend over and take it. There is also an unacceptable loss of sovereignty with this agreement. Remember Canada trying to ban MMT from gasoline for health and environmental reasons? We had to backtrack because of NAFTA. Certain provisions of NAFTA also figure large in the healthcare debate, according to some people who say that opening the door to any private healthcare delivery would necessarily open the door fully to American-style care.

You have been spending too much over at "Latitude", Mike.

MMMike, what the heck? When I had to leave this forum back in August, you were about as right wing as me, now you seem to have drifted to the left? WTH? I gotta agree with Jay, here. Come back to the light side, leave the dark side where it is. :wink:
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Canada cannot even sort out its internal trade barriers and problems between provinces. One or two things go wrong with NAFTA and all hell breaks loose. Give your heads a shake.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

bluealberta said:
BitWhys said:
Toro said:
...
As for not protecting healthcare, you want to give us an example?

I'm surprised you found it necessary to ask.

Supreme Court health ruling oblivious to trade treaty threats
June 30, 2005
Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, the Quebec physician whose complaint led the Supreme Court to strike down Quebec’s ban on private health insurance, celebrated his victory by going to Washington to be feted by conservative U.S. think-tanks. He personally invited U.S. health care corporations to come to Canada.

The Supreme Court somehow failed to grasp what was immediately obvious to Chaoulli and the U.S. right-wing. Overturning the ban on private health insurance will open the gates for multinational insurance corporations and for-profit heath care companies to storm the Canadian health care system.

The decision is a Trojan horse. Once U.S. and other foreign insurers are inside the walls of the Canadian health system, international trade treaties, such as NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO), will give them the weapons to fight any government attempt to displace them or even control their market share.

The Supreme Court made a dangerous oversight when it ignored the Romanow Commission’s warning that trade treaties pose serious risks that need to be considered before any major health care reforms are undertaken. Low and middle-income Canadians, especially the sick and the elderly, would be the big losers if our health care system assimilates with the U.S. market model.

It is the public, not-for-profit character of Canadian health care that minimizes the risk of trade treaty challenges. If that foundation is shifted, our health care system’s protection from trade treaties crumbles.

Government measures affecting private health insurance are governed by the financial services rules of the WTO’s General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). NAFTA’s expropriation rules - which allow foreign investors to sue Ottawa for policies that reduce their expected profits - also apply fully to the health care sector.

Canada’s trade negotiators covered health insurance under the GATS in 1994. They later argued that the existing public health insurance system was not affected since the GATS excludes governmental services that are not “in competition with one or more service suppliers.”

But if the Supreme Court ruling were implemented, Canada’s provincial health insurance plans would be thrown into competition with private suppliers. This would nullify the GATS “governmental authority” exclusion, exposing both private and public health insurance to the treaty.

Multinational insurance companies could then challenge regulations that aim to ensure that Canadians’ access to health care services is based on need rather than the ability to pay. Provincial policies, guided by the Canada Health Act, deliberately discourage the growth of private insurance markets by, for example, setting fee caps, restricting direct and extra-billing, and preventing public subsidy of private practice.

Such public policies will be viewed as illegal trade barriers. In covered sectors such as health insurance, the GATS guarantees foreign service providers the right to enter the market and full access to the same government subsidies and other advantages given to domestic service providers.

The GATS rules and NAFTA’s tough expropriation provisions would work in tandem to accelerate the growth of private insurance markets and to make dislodging foreign insurers from the health sector next to impossible.

Just as Canada’s public health care system has been built around the public monopoly over health insurance, the limited protections that Canada negotiated in the NAFTA and the GATS are based on the existing separation between private and public health insurance “markets”.

The Supreme Court ruling would destroy this basic separation, by permitting private insurers, including foreign companies, to cover the full range of health services. This would neuter the trade treaty exemptions for Canadian health care.

In their scathing dissent, the minority on the court stated that “the proposed constitutional right to a two-tier health system for those who can afford private medical insurance would precipitate a seismic shift in health policy.” For a slim majority of judges to trigger such a fundamental change in our country’s public health care system is deeply disturbing. To do so without considering the long-term consequences under Canada’s trade treaties is inexplicable.

Hopefully, this ruling will never be implemented. At the moment, it applies only to Quebec, which has asked for a stay. Government reinvestment in the public system may reduce wait times, resolving the issue. The Quebec government retains the right to invoke the notwithstanding clause. Finally, the arrival of two new justices on the Supreme Court bench may lead to a different outcome in future cases.

The crucial lesson here is that if the ban on private health insurance for medically necessary services is abolished, Canada’s trade treaty commitments will make it practically impossible to curb the growth of two-tier medicine or to reverse course and restore a universal, public health insurance system.

For the sake of Canadians’ most valued social program, let’s leave this Trojan horse outside Medicare’s gate.

Scott Sinclair is a trade policy specialist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. He is co-editor, with Matthew Sanger, of Putting Health First: Canadian Health Care Reform in A Globalizing World, a collection of reports on globalization and health prepared for the Romanow Commission.

It is interesting that you found this, an article written by a contributor to the Romanow Commission to support your claim. There is obviously no bias there, right?

If NAFTA forces us, somehow, to actually deal with our health care system without all the scare tactics from both sides, then it will be worth every dot of ink on the paper. If it forces us to look at alternative delivery sources, yes, including private delivery sources, then it will be well worth it. The Supreme Court decision basically was an affirmation of our human rights as well, were in the bottom line was that it was against the human rights of Canadians to be forced to die in waiting lines due to the monopoly of a one tier public health care system. Fear mongers will oppose any changes, but for those of us who wish to explore any and all alternatives to our system in order to make it more efficient, we are all for this type of review.

Long way of saying that, IMO, NAFTA may be the saviour of our health care system, as opposed to the fearmongering of the people who who oppose it.

I just answered his question.

did you say something about the answer beyond ad hominem?
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

I take that interpretation from CCPA with a huge grain of salt. They are hardly an unobjective observer, especially considering they are making the connection between the Supreme Court decision and NAFTA, which is certainly a reach.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

Toro said:
I take that interpretation from CCPA with a huge grain of salt. They are hardly an unobjective observer, especially considering they are making the connection between the Supreme Court decision and NAFTA, which is certainly a reach.

oh get serious. everyone who's interested already knows that under NAFTA once you pop the cherry on an industry there's no turning back.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
I think not said:
Canada cannot even sort out its internal trade barriers and problems between provinces. One or two things go wrong with NAFTA and all hell breaks loose. Give your heads a shake.

If the feds would stay out of provincial areas, this would also not be a problem. Maybe with a non intrusive Conservative federal government we might see some movement on this issue as well.

But your point is well taken. However, sometimes it is easier to make agreements with people outside your "family circle" than it is to make agreements with your siblings. 8)
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
I meant no offense bluealberta, but it is obvious to me Canadians have been sold on the idea NAFTA is a BAD BAD thing when they can't even sell an apple across Provincial borders without problems.

But that's not interesting news nowadays.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
I think not said:
I meant no offense bluealberta, but it is obvious to me Canadians have been sold on the idea NAFTA is a BAD BAD thing when they can't even sell an apple across Provincial borders without problems.

But that's not interesting news nowadays.

Well, people are certainly being sold something, but only the sheep on the left are buying it.

YOu make a good point, though, and it is something that Alberta, as a province, realized as well. Our north-south trade with the US now vastly outstrips our east-west trade with the rest of Canada, and that pisses off the east, because now we, and I will include BC, and starting to include Sask, do not necessarily need trade with the rest of Canada to be successful. That is one of the reasons the separatist talk flares up from time to time, the trade between Alberta and the US is much more beneficial than that between Alberta and the ROC.

No offense taken.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
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36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
I'm for Free and fair trade, which NAFTA was not. There are and were too many problems with labour standerds. Also when it comes down to sovereignty issues and government subsidies and the right of the government to interfere in the free market on behalve of the people, comes to question. Who has more rights, the people or the corperations. I think there is a fair middle ground which the NAFTA agreement didn't cover very well.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failu

BitWhys said:
oh get serious. everyone who's interested already knows that under NAFTA once you pop the cherry on an industry there's no turning back.

"Everyone who's interested" knows, eh?

Its just that simple.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Yeah That NAFTA thingme is just soooo great for Canada....

“In the end, it is the taxpayers of the challenged country who must pay the compensation to a corporation if it succeeds in its NAFTA suit. In the first seven years of NAFTA, with only a small number of cases filed, an astonishing $13 billion has been claimed by corporations in their initial filings: $1.8 billion from U.S. taxpayers, $294 million from Mexican taxpayers and a whopping $11 billion from Canadian taxpayers.”
http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=7076
 

Lotuslander

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
158
0
16
Vancouver
Whether NAFTA is good or bad for Canada depends on your perspective but, if one simply looks at the economic numbers and excludes all other variables the success is unabated and obvious. Since NAFTA was signed our economy has grown from a 600 billion dollars GDP to about 1.1 trillion. And our exports to the US have increased significantly. As well former inefficeintcies in the Canadian economy have been eliminated, which has resulted in job losses.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
So you're suggesting that we ignore that eleven billion, the environment and simply accept that our good trading partner can throw out the book anytime they're not pleased with the situation?

You should check out the wonderful stuff that's happened with the Canadian Wheat Board, lumber and manufacturing industries....to say nothing of how intricate our "national security" has become with the US and the effects of NAFTA on ....oh never mind, I forgot there for a moment...

The only important stuff in the ekonomics-think of modern civilization is making sure the wealthy keep on getting weatlhier while the rest of us drift on by...
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: RE: (CC) NAFTA is a failure

MikeyDB said:
So you're suggesting that we ignore that eleven billion, the environment and simply accept that our good trading partner can throw out the book anytime they're not pleased with the situation?

You should check out the wonderful stuff that's happened with the Canadian Wheat Board, lumber and manufacturing industries....to say nothing of how intricate our "national security" has become with the US and the effects of NAFTA on ....oh never mind, I forgot there for a moment...

The only important stuff in the ekonomics-think of modern civilization is making sure the wealthy keep on getting weatlhier while the rest of us drift on by...

If as Lotuslander says our increase in GDP has grown from 600billion to over 1 trillion, then yes, I would say that 11 billion is not much of an issue. What is with the Wheat Board and NAFTA? Our National Security has always been intimate with the US, especially since NORAD (you DO remember that, right?).

Funny thing is, you will find just as many people in the US bitching about NAFTA with Canada as you will find here bitching about the opposite. That alone tells me that it is a good deal.

We owe much, if not all, of our economic success over the past decade or so to NAFTA. Trying to be a protectionist country next to the worlds biggest trading country is very self destructive. Those who think we should become "navel gazers" and nationalize everything would put us in the worst economic straits you have ever seen. We need to trade with the US, they need to trade with us, simple as that. But if we keep on being idiots like the left would like us to do, that reciprocation policy may go out the window. Then we can manufacture as much as we want of everything, problem being of course is that we would have no place to sell our products. Great economic policy that would be.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Lotuslander said:
Whether NAFTA is good or bad for Canada depends on your perspective but, if one simply looks at the economic numbers and excludes all other variables the success is unabated and obvious. Since NAFTA was signed our economy has grown from a 600 billion dollars GDP to about 1.1 trillion. And our exports to the US have increased significantly. As well former inefficeintcies in the Canadian economy have been eliminated, which has resulted in job losses.



Although the raw numbers sound dramatic, compared to the last 40 years, Canada has experienced marginally below average economic growth since the ratification of NAFTA.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Bluealberta

Here's to you friend! You should be happy living in the tax-free land of petroleum and Ralph Klein...

It's difficult to translate or understand for that matter that there are huge numbers of people in Canada that don't benefit from the numbers game most often cited in support of NAFTA.

Alberta is o course a different story...