Canadians For Equal Marriage

Mediana

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2004
78
0
6
La Belle Province
Re: RE: Canadians For Equal Marriage

LadyC said:
Cite me a single dictionary which defines the word "vote" as being an activity to the exclusion of women... Can't do it? Gee, then you really have a problem.
Jheeeesh! History wasn't your best subject, was it? Women only got the vote in the last century. Prior to that it was only men who could vote. Dictionary definition or not.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in your original question you made no mention of history... you wrote about the definition of marriage.

LadyC said:
One thing I don't get...
Why do the folks who are against this always say, "Sure, I believe in equal rights. Give them the benefits and all, but let them come up with their own name... calling it marriage will destroy family values."

What the heck difference does it make?!?

If you want to switch to the subject history, just say so. The discussion you started was about etymology and the highjacking of words by special interest groups.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Thats right, she is..I left cranbrook a little while after she got her harley...I had no idea she was in a biker magazine 8O but I was happy to hear she kept her top on, or I might consider her a devient :wink:

COSMOS IS GAY COSMOS IS GAY NA NA NA NA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
Mediana: as-tu lu ma question? Quel est l'effet ta vie? Est-ce qu'Il n'est pas difficile de répondre à cette question?
 

Mediana

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2004
78
0
6
La Belle Province
Andem said:
Mediana: as-tu lu ma question? Quel est l'effet ta vie? Est-ce qu'Il n'est pas difficile de répondre à cette question?

Je suis un étudiant d'ontologie et je tiens à coeur que le langage soit un outil pour faciliter la communication, pas pour avancer la cause de groupe d'intérêt spécialisé.

Avez-vous des enfants ? Moi, j'en ai deux et je peux vous dire que c'est vraiment triste de voir comment le vocabulaire des jeunes de nos jours est pauvre par rapport aux générations précédentes. À quoi ça sert de prendre des termes qui sont claire et concise et d'élargir leur définition au point où ils sèment la confusion ? Êtes vous fan de George Carlin ? Savez qu'il a fait toute une carrière attaquant la politisation, l'exploitation et le décervelage de notre langage moderne. Et je lui suis très reconnaissant.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
0
36
Montréal, Québec
RE: Canadians For Equal M

Words, the meaning of them, are changed every year. New ones are added, and so on... Besides, I agree. The state should only give Civil Unions. Our does.

And for our generation, its normal. I've been threw that phase as well. When I started CÉGEP, I started to speak the language correctly. As do the majority, at that age.

You're just part of the old guard. Ignorant as you are, about our generation. You assume.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
In English: How does legalised Gay marriage effect YOUR life? (Essayé en français pour une réponse mais non).
 

Mediana

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2004
78
0
6
La Belle Province
Andem said:
DIRECT FROM THE DICTIONARY:

mar·riage ( P )
n.

1. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
2. The state of being married; wedlock.
3. A common-law marriage.
4. A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

Looks like you're wrong Mendiana.

Why am I wrong? Same-sex is not specific to definition #4; rather it is cited simply as an example. The people who put definition #4 together could have also used the example of a union between a man and a prepubescent child bride -- something which is also legal in some countries.

I'll be wrong when the principle definition is wiped from our collective memory.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Why am I wrong? Same-sex is not specific to definition #4; rather it is cited simply as an example. The people who put definition #4 together could have also used the example of a union between a man and a prepubescent child bride -- something which is also legal in some countries.

I'll be wrong when the principle definition is wiped from our collective memory.

No, you have been shown quite clearly to be wrong. By your own rules too. Changing the rules you just defined would be unfair...much worse than allowing a word to change in an ever-evolving language.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
Mediana: Also legally in your own province, the definition of marriage has been changed from the stone-ages. So wherever you look, the legal and practical definitions have been changed. There's no turning back, sorry to burst your '50s bubble.

The dictionary and Québec/Ontario/British Columbia/Manitoba/Nunavut/Saskatchewan/Nova Scotia/Yukon laws have changed your outdated definitions. BTW, that represents 85% of the country.
 

Mediana

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2004
78
0
6
La Belle Province
Reverend Blair said:
Why am I wrong? Same-sex is not specific to definition #4; rather it is cited simply as an example. The people who put definition #4 together could have also used the example of a union between a man and a prepubescent child bride -- something which is also legal in some countries.

I'll be wrong when the principle definition is wiped from our collective memory.

No, you have been shown quite clearly to be wrong. By your own rules too.

Is a mouse the definition of small? No, its an example of smallness.

A same sex marriage is no more the same thing as marriage proper than an amphibious car is the same thing as a car.

Like the car, and unlike the amphibious car, the traditional, pan-cultural, historical definition of marriage does not require a qualifier. Conversely, to be properly recognized and understood a homosexual marriage can only distinquish itself through the use of a qualifier (gay marriages / same sex marriages). The same holds true for similar terms like "polygamous marriage" or "open marriage".

Reverend Blair said:
Changing the rules you just defined would be unfair...much worse than allowing a word to change in an ever-evolving language.

Changing the rules is what you are advocating by blurring the distinction between something which is engineered by PC decree and something which evolves naturally...
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
A same sex marriage is no more the same thing as marriage proper than an amphibious car is the same thing as a car.

An amphibious car is still a car though. You are confusing the expansion of a definition to include a new fact...something very natural in language...with the abrupt changing of a word to the exclusion of its previous meaning.

Including same sex marriage ans part of the definition of marriage does not mean that the old definition no longer applies.

Like the car, and unlike the amphibious car, the traditional, pan-cultural, historical definition of marriage does not require a qualifier.

Neither would same sex marriage if you would quit worrying about it. A woman could say, "This is my wife, Eve," or a man could say, "This is my husband, Adam," and then the introductions would be done, everybody would know where they stood, and that would be the end of it.
 

Diamond Sun

Council Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,366
1
38
Within arms reach of the new baby..
Mediana said:
Changing the rules is what you are advocating by blurring the distinction between something which is engineered by PC decree and something which evolves naturally...

I don't think the desire for homosexuals to have recognized marriages has anything to do with political correctness. There have been homosexual relationships since the beginning of time, and our society finally getting around to realizing that, accepting that, and formally recognizing that is a natural evolution of mankind.

I know it's been cited before, but as women getting the vote was a natural evolution (that took far too long in my opinion), so also is society recognizing that homosexual relationships are perfectly acceptable.
 

Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
3,725
22
38
Victoria, BC
Mediana said:
You're not married... but you're happily married? Did it ever occur to you that you are playing with words to the insult of the readership?
Yes, of course. It’s a homosexual plot to try to confuse everyone. That way, once the breeders are confused, we can swoop in while they are witless and vulnerable and have our way with them. Maahahhahaaha From your comments, you sound almost ripe for the picking … where are the “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy” when you need em?

Mediana said:
Which partner would that be... your bridge partner? your business partner? your dance partner? your study partner?
Don’t be ridiculous. I don’t play bridge! But all the others apply. Plus a few more but I thought you might find “carpet munching” a bit offensive so I omitted it. Oh ya, she is my wife. I’ve got her to “love and honour” but we are still working on the “obey” part. I usually refer to her as “my chick” but, if you and your ilk insist, I could start using the common terms like “the old lady”, “the ball and chain”, perhaps even “my bitch” in my posts to you if you find them preferable. Unfortunately I didn’t “marry” her because she had little feet and could stand closer to the kitchen sink like some Mrs. Cleaver clone, but I understand your obvious nostalgia for those days.

Mediana said:
You could at least call her (assuming its a female) your "life partner" or "domestic partner" or some other PC crystal weenie new age term ...

Your choice of language is disingenous and ambiguous. Why is that?
Do you have a problem with certitude and commitment?

Incidentally, is she your only partner, or do you have others?
Well, finally … a sense of humour! Hee hee hee … “PC crystal weenie new age term”. Can I borrow that sometime? Does have a ring to it.

As for whether she is my only partner … well, yes and no. Sometimes I do business, study and even dance with others but as for marital partner (aka my old lady), she’s the only one. Once you get yourself a marital partner of your own, you’ll realize that a relationship for us who take it seriously is a full time job. And if your partner happens to be a woman, everything they say is true: You can never understand women. It’s a full time job for me.

Mediana said:
Like those nutters who "marry" their dog or horse...
Ya, nutters is right. I once thought of marrying a farm animal but couldn’t figure out how to do the horizontal bop with a duck so pretty much gave it up as a nutty idea. I’m sure some of your shit-kicking buddies with bad dental work could explain the sheep thing to you though ….

If I may be so bold, Mediana, why don’t you toss on your white sheet and toddle back over to the conservative right and report to your Grand Cyclops before you blow a fuse? Us crazy left wing, “PC crystal new age weenies” are probably not helpful to any shred of mental health you may possess. Trying to discuss this with you is shades of the old adage “trying to match wits with an unarmed man”. It’s been my experience in this forum that fanatic speechifying sprinkled with insult and bile are not a sufficient substitute for thoughtful dialogue. But thanks for the chuckle, at least.
 

Cosmo

House Member
Jul 10, 2004
3,725
22
38
Victoria, BC
Re: RE: Canadians For Equal Marriage

Rick van Opbergen said:
And you forgot Cosmo peapod, she's a celebrity too :wink:
Ah Ricky... a fan. I'd send you an autographed copy but you'd probably ignore my picture and concentrate on all the topless blondes that populate the pages! :wink:
 

Mediana

Nominee Member
Oct 15, 2004
78
0
6
La Belle Province
Re: RE: Canadians For Equal Marriage

Andem said:
Also legally in your own province, the definition of marriage has been changed from the stone-ages. So wherever you look, the legal and practical definitions have been changed. There's no turning back, sorry to burst your '50s bubble.

Only to make way for 1984...

Tell me, do you think its appropriate for legislative and judicial bodies to have the power to toy around with language?

Perhap in warm, fuzzy, tolerant Canada you can be forgiven for not looking at the big picture... but there's more at stake than simply broadening definitions to accomodate special interest groups. It isn't until you look around the globe at other nations that it becomes evident that the practice of governments re-engineering language can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.

One only has to look at our neighbours to the south and how they were able to circumvent the Geneva Convention with their all too convenient definition of "enemy combatant".

Who is to say the same sinister practice couldn't be used to change traditional definitions pertaining to things like native land claims or constitutional rights?

The linguistic sword cuts both ways...
 

LadyC

Time Out
Sep 3, 2004
1,340
0
36
the left coast
Cosmo...
Now that SSMs are legal pretty much everywhere in Canada, we can move on to phase II of the Master Plan.

There's this really cute mallard I've got my eye on, but he won't settle for anything less than marriage. So if you ever decide to make an honest woman out of your ol' lady, and you find yourself with some time on your hands, perhaps you can join me in my new cause. I'm thinking protests, sit-ins, parades.....
;)
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Tell me, do you think its appropriate for legislative and judicial bodies to have the power to toy around with language?

You mean like the way you do when you assume your traditional meanings are the same as all Canadians?

Perhap in warm, fuzzy, tolerant Canada you can be forgiven for not looking at the big picture... but there's more at stake than simply broadening definitions to accomodate special interest groups.

Yeah, like gays having the same rights as the rest of us. Part of the job of a democracy is to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority. It's what separates democracy from simple mob rule.



It isn't until you look around the globe at other nations that it becomes evident that the practice of governments re-engineering language can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.

Or we could just look at the religious right and their "family values" that promote intolerance toward anyone who doesn't buy into their lies.

One only has to look at our neighbours to the south and how they were able to circumvent the Geneva Convention with their all too convenient definition of "enemy combatant".

That never changed the reality of the situation though...the international community still holds that term to mean nothing and considers the continued imprisonment of those people to be illegal. Courts in the US have ruled against the Bush government on that issue many times.

Who is to say the same sinister practice couldn't be used to change traditional definitions pertaining to things like native land claims or constitutional rights?

There's that tyranny of the majority thing again. It's one of the basic predepts of democracy.


There Mediana...I even answered the off-topic red herrings and straw man theories you tossed in. Happy?
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
0
36
pumpkin pie bungalow
Medinia the only thing dangerous around here is your narrow mind. You are intelligent, what a shame. I suppose you dismiss science as well. I suggest you read steven pinker. He is a expert. But your line of thinking is "regardless of the facts", its what make you dangerous. Try reading the language instinct. Here I will cut and paste a little steven for you. Try opening your mind and actually thinking for once instead of blathering on about your morality, which is bankrupt as far as I can see. Also I have always found in life those who do blather on and on about their morals, usually when the "test" comes and it usually does, really don't have what you would call "the right stuff"

Enjoy,
Cheers and beers
Peapod


Steven Pinker grew up in Montreal’s English-speaking Jewish community. “It was a culture with a lot of arguing,” Pinker recalls. “I was never outgrew my conversion to atheism at 13,” Pinker said in a 1999 interview, “but at various times was a serious cultural Jew.” About the same time as he lost religion, Pinker found his interest in the human mind. “I was a 13-year-old anarchist, and wanted to study human nature, through anthropology, psychoanalysis, and psychology. I was a Rousseauan then; now I’m a Hobbesian.” Asked whether parents sparked his interest in evolutionary psychology, Pinker smiled and answered, “Yes, it comes from my parents. The question is how it comes from my parents.”
Pinker stayed in Montreal after high school to study psychology at McGill University. A department head at McGill convinced Pinker to concentrate on “scientific, laboratory-oriented psychology” rather than the more popular field of psychoanalytic theory. Pinker took his mentor’s advice. When he moved on to do post-graduate work at Harvard, Pinker focused his attention on cognitive science. When “I was told that people might pay you to study the mind, I knew what I wanted to do with my life,” he said.

Pinker rocketed to fame—at least the level of fame possible in the world of academic psychology—in 1994 when he published The Language Instinct, which argued that human language is a biological adaptation, not a cultural invention. Pinker’s research into the origins of language soon led him into the controversial field of evolutionary psychology. In his next book, How the Mind Works (1998), Pinker promoted the idea that most common human behaviors are those that many generations earlier contributed to survival and the ability to pass along genes.

Pinker’s idea was not new. Darwin himself suggested that emotion, perception, and cognition evolved as adaptations. (Alfred Wallace, the co-founder—with Darwin—of evolution, disagreed with his friend on this point. Wallace believed that a superior intelligence designed the human mind.) Famous nineteenth-century psychologist William James took Darwin’s suggestion and developed a rich psychological theory based on Darwinian notions of instinct and adaptations such as long-term and short-term memory.

Evolutionary psychology eventually lost favor, done in by its proponents’ overstatements and concerns about eugenics and Social Darwinism. By the mid-twentieth century, things had changed so completely that behaviorists such as B. F. Skinner were insisting that psychology and biology had no relationship to each other. The human mind, according to strict behaviorists, was “a blank slate.”

In the 1970s, the tide turned again. Evolutionary biologists such as E. O. Wilson, author of Sociobiology, and Richard Dawkins, author of The Selfish Gene, drew from new studies to argue that many human behavioral tendencies evolved when organisms interacted with offspring, allies, and adversaries over long periods of time. Soon a new band of evolutionary psychologists began pushing the idea that emotions such as guilt, anger, sympathy, and love all have a biological basis.

Pinker seems to have an adaptive explanation for nearly every human behavior. People in urban areas today fear snakes, Pinker says, because when humans gathered food in the woods millennia ago those that failed to fear them rarely contributed to the gene pool. Gossip is a popular pastime because knowledge of what others are up to was an adaptive advantage.

Such arguments met the fierce resistance of radical scientists such as Stephen Jay Gould, who mislabeled them as “biological determinism.” Gould agreed that evolution shaped the brain, but insisted that individuals and not genes are the unit of natural selection. “Selection simply cannot see genes and pick among them directly,” he argued. “It must use bodies” and bodies “cannot be atomized into parts, each constructed by an individual gene.” Gould described evolutionary psychologists as holding “a penchant for narrow and barren speculation” that amounts to “pure guess-work in the cocktail –party mode.” Gould was by no means the only critic of evolutionary psychology. So strong have been the attacks, in fact, that the efforts to oppose its teaching in colleges and universities has been called by its supporters “the new creationism.”

The criticisms about “biological determinism” did not deter Pinker, however, from taking the Darwinian explanation of psychology a step further. He argued in his 1998 book How the Mind Works that biology partially explains our moral sense. Pinker’s ideas were not novel—E. O. Wilson had suggested as early as 1975 that our moral reasoning was a product of natural selection—but Pinker developed the theory with the benefit of two decades of additional scientific research. New studies showed, according to Pinker, that genes guide the assembly of the brain and allow parts of the brain to “organize themselves without any information from the senses.” He points to studies of twins that prove genetics controls the amount of gray matter in different cortical regions—regions that control intelligence and personality traits. How the Mind Works led to renewed attacks from Stephen Jay Gould—the two scientists engaged in a high-voltage clash in the pages of the New York Review of Books over the scientific legitimacy of evolutionary psychology.

Pinker is convinced that the coming decades will see the obliteration of “the distinction between biology and culture, nature versus society, matter versus mind.” He claims to find that prospect “exhilarating.” While others believe that explaining the mind in physical terms will undermine human dignity, morality, and personal responsibility, Pinker calls all such claims the “confusion between is and ought.”

The argument of Pinker and others that evolution contributed substantially to human nature and moral sense provoked attacks from the right, as well as the left. Creationist biochemist Michael Behe, for example, argued that the “irreducible complexity” of biochemistry prevents incremental evolution of human nature and means that the human mind must have an intelligent designer. Pinker strongly disagrees. He argues that Behe “jettisons all scientific “scruples” and makes claims that are “unproven or just wrong.”

Neo-conservative thinkers, including law professor Phillip Johnson, bio-ethicist Leon Kass (chairman of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics), and commentator Irving Kristol have joined the attack on evolutionary biology. As Pinker notes in The Blank Slate (2002), “It is not clear whether these worldly thinkers are really convinced that Darwinism is false or whether they think it is important for people to believe that it is false.” Pinker is reminded of a scene from the play about the Scopes trial, Inherit the Wind, in which the characters playing Bryan and Darrow are enjoying a relaxing conversation. Bryan confides his thoughts on his fundamentalist supporters: “They’re simple people; poor people. They work hard and they need to believe in something, something beautiful. Why do you want to take it away from them? It’s all they have.”

Irving Kristol thinks humanity itself is threatened if people come to believe they lead “meaningless lives in a meaningless universe.” He argues that unadulterated truth isn’t for everybody: “There are different truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Pinker recognizes that the implication of Darwinism most feared by creationists is the “idea that evolution can explain mind and morality.” Pinker tries to reassure readers of The Blank Slate that evolutionary psychology doesn’t mean the end of moral responsibility. Evolution might, for example, predispose men to sleeping around, but it doesn’t necessitate or excuse that behavior, Pinker points out. The common fears about evolutionary psychology are misplaced. It doesn’t lead to inequality; it doesn’t mean we cannot hope to make a more perfect society; it doesn’t mean all behavior is biologically determined; it doesn’t lead to nihilism.

Pinker argues that a view of the mind as having been shaped by evolution is not amoral. Morality derives from the physical structure of our brain, he contends. The fact that eighteen-month-old children share toys and try to comfort adults is strong evidence for a moral instinct. So too, according to Pinker, is the universality among cultures of many concepts and applications of right and wrong. Pinker asserts that our moral sense comes from evolution, not God, and that its “circle of application” has expanded over time through reason, knowledge, and sympathy.

Moreover, according to Pinker, our innate moral sense is far less likely to produce evil than is religion. He blames the stoning of prostitutes, the execution of homosexuals, the bombing of abortion clinics, the burning of witches, the slaying of heretics, and the crashing of airplanes into skyscrapers on imagined commands of God. Actions of that sort are not responses to an internal moral sense. The religious “doctrine of the soul,” in Pinker’s estimation, “necessarily devalues the lives we live on this earth.” The doctrine encourages suicide bombers and prevents such potentially life-saving research techniques as those involving stem cells.

In Pinker’s view, people who argue that evolutionary psychology drains life of meaning seriously confuse “ultimate causation (why something evolved by natural selection) with proximate causation (how the entity works here and now).” The “metaphorical motives” of genes are not the real motives of people. Even if the good, the true, and the beautiful are merely “neural constructs, movies we project onto the interior of our skulls,” it does not mean that those “movies” aren’t real. Pinker compares our innate moral sense to our sense of number—both might have developed to “grasp abstract truths in the world that exist independently of the minds that grasp them.” The Golden Rule might well be just as real as the number 2. Pinker concludes, “If we are so constituted that we cannot help but think in moral terms, then morality is as real for us as if it were decreed by the Almighty or written into the cosmos.”