Canadians Fired On In Iraq

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Canadians Fired On In Iraq

Mogz said:
Hey, they can wander around sand-land all they want, but don't expect me to feel sympathy for the fools that wander down the street while bullets are flying. If that moron catches a bullet and dies; thinning out the herd I say. I never said I agreeded that the U.S. should have invaded Iraq, in fact i'm against it (Afghanistan is another story), however we can't change the fact that the war happened and as such people over there who aren't directly involved in the conflict should keep their heads down, OR stop bitching when some goat herder gets wacked by walking in to a fire fight. It all comes down to base intelligence. Are you intelligent enough to head for cover when the lead starts flying, or are you going to gawk like a tourist and play Survivor: The Home Game.

Oh, so they should know better. So if a person in North American goes to a known bad area of a city and gets killed, then that really is their fault. I see, I see.

So when the next plane goes into an American Office Tower, I'll just say that they should know better that sometimes planes fly into them and really they shouldn't have been there if they wanted to be absolutely safe. Good logic!
 

zoofer

Council Member
Dec 31, 2005
1,274
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The newspaper reports that the Canadian car was travelling alone and failed to respond to US troops. The troops first tried hand signals which didn't cause the car to stop. Then the fired in the air with similar results. Fearing a suicide bomber 3 shots were fired into the engine block. Good shootin' if you ask me.

Thats normal procedures for stopping cars which may be carbombers.
The Canadians were newbys in Iraq so probably were unaware of realities on the ground.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Wednesday's Child !!!

Your sincerety and honor on the matter is greatly
noted and appreciated.

The first step on this kind of issue is to really
understand how comfortable we critics are and how
crazy fast the situation is that we judge.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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California
JimMoyer

Thank you - the military are an entity to themselves. We expect them to kill, be righteous, have honor, infallable forecasting of events, and stand next to God. An impossible and unattainable goal. Often when one is circa 21 years on earth.

Anyone who takes up protection of his/her country as do many in my immediate and past family, need no defense from me.

I honor them and all and their comrades. Their truth is honest for seconds and locked - yet lost in real time for real people and often changed to suit the "afterword" of events.

The critics are merely those lodged in comfort doing a replay from words gleaned on a machine. Much as they wish to create their own artistry of perception, how they see reality and blame, cannot play Spielberg to write the truth - which lies in the players' eyes and minds only.

Yet it is good there are critics and questioners. I merely opt out of defending as the warriors need none. They are - that is enough.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
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PEI...for now
My only confusion is, is that because of past whoopsies with the Italians and Iraqi citizens I wonder why they haven't tried a different approach to warning motorists? Really, when I'm driving on the road under normal circumstances I may see someone in an another vehicle hand signalling me 20% of the time. A warning shot may even get my attention even more. The WHEEEEP of a police car always makes me take notice.

Now I know that the US uses hand signals and ye olde warning shots in Iraq, I'm a little fuzzy if they use any loud noise system though. But I'm for thinking that in a warzone...My attention would be harder pressed to see hand signals, let alone warning shots since such noises are probably quite commonplace anyways, you'd eventually zone them out...unless it hit my car.

Because of these past accidents, have they really tried anything a little different since the current option is sometimes not percieved by the motorist until it's too late??? :scratch:
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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California
JoCanadian

I think because of the past errors and people injured by passing through military "check zones" most of the things have been worked out for the people in the region.

Perhaps the driver of the diplomatic car felt they were above the usual military rules of engagement and processing for entry into certain areas of Baghdad, however he had valuable cargo and should have complied even if told to proceed by the diplomats.

The idea of driving through a military check point without stopping is ridiculous, and whether the driver was unable to "hear" or "understand hand motions".....the lineup of guys in military uniforms holding weaponry should have been a message loud and clear. Suicidal if ignored.

There are terrorist car bombers all over that place and yes they would be happy to use a diplomatic vehicle to do their work. Why not. The terrorist don't have rule books - only death to their enemy - and often win because the military do have rules to abide by, which gets them killed.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
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PEI...for now
Much of you had mentioned is just speculation. You nor I really do know the amount of instances that do occur, at least when it comes to native Iraqis. I guess that's where ITN's fog of war comes in. Other nationals do get reported it seems when it does happen. I do assume that in the day to day routine many many people go through the checkpoints without a problem. In the end though I find hand signals silly.

As far as the Canadians being shot upon who knows? Was he really thinking that he was above it all? Speculation? Or was he paying more attention to parked vehicles or things on the side of the road fearing a roadside bomb rather that the us convoy waving at them? Again speculation.

In the end it's down to the he said she said thing, and the stories always seem to conflict, which means no one's going to admit they're in the wrong...especially the dudes with the guns. :lol:
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
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PEI...for now
 

zoofer

Council Member
Dec 31, 2005
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So they didn't see the hand signals to stop? Does that mean there were no hand signals? They didn't hear the warning shots? No warning shots? So the troops just willy nilly fire at a car for no reason at all?

..... or were they lollygagging around and not paying attention? Had the windows closed and air conditioner on high listening to Celine Dion's latest?

They had the maple leaf on the dash. Almost out of sight. Anyhow terrorists have used police cars and ambulances as bombs so flying a foreign flag may not be enough to ensure safety.

With all the kidnapping of foreigners going on was it wise for these four to motor around, unarmed and unescorted?
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
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California
Oh well there goes a good story.... now the CBC has it...

The whining will go on for weeks with investigations, interrogations, innuendo and implicit fingerpointing and blame.

Someone should mention how the Canadian military disabled a vehicle in Afghanistan a while back under similar circumstances.

The truth here and "not my conjecture" is the driver of that diplomatic vehicle is in trouble and it is now time for the CBC to lead the charge of CYA - big time.

At least the CBC has a story to creatively dabble with for a while.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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And a gentle reminder it can happen to anyone...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...kandahar_convoy_canada_060115?s_name=&no_ads=

Foreign Affairs diplomat killed in Afghanistan
Updated Sun. Jan. 15 2006 11:08 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A senior Foreign Affairs diplomat was killed and three Canadian soldiers were wounded after a suicide car bombing struck their military convoy in Afghanistan on Sunday.

The diplomat has been identified as Glyn Berry, 59. He had been serving as the political director of the 250-member provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar.

The Canadian soldiers have been identified as Pte. William Edward Salikin of 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Cpl. Jeffrey Bailey of 1 Combat Engineer Regiment and Master Cpl. Paul Franklin of 1 Field Ambulance, Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais told a news conference.

Officials say two of three of the soldiers are in critical condition and are suffering life-threatening injuries.

They are expected to be airlifted to an American military hospital in Germany as soon as they can be moved.

"Our most sincere thoughts and prayers are with them and their families and with all Canadians serving in Afghanistan," Dumais said.

It is also believed two Afghan civilians were killed and 10 others were wounded in the attack.

'Pursuit of peace and stability'

Berry, who was born in Britain, had served with Foreign Affairs since 1977 before giving his life to what the prime minister called "the pursuit of peace and stability.''

He had most recently served as head of the political section of Canada's mission at the United Nations in New York.

The deputy minister of Foreign Affairs, Peter Harder, said Berry had been planning a vacation to celebrate his 60th birthday.

"When I spoke with his widow today, she spoke touchingly about how important he felt this work was, and how much he felt that he was making a difference working with real people to change lives," Harder said of Berry's wife Valerie.

"The department has lost a colleague and a friend ... we will miss him."

Eyewitness reports

Berry and the soldiers were about a kilometre southeast of Kandahar when a nearby vehicle-borne bomb exploded as it approached a crowded bus stop on the main road to the camp on Sunday.

A second Canadian vehicle was damaged but no other Canadians were hurt.

"These soldiers travel this route every day, back and forth to the base, and when they do they face this risk," said CTV's Matt McClure, reporting from Kabul. "And they are sitting ducks, and they know it."

Col. Steve Noonan, head of Task Force Afghanistan, said from Kandahar that the Canadians, who have immobilized potential attackers with gunfire before, had no time to fire on the vehicle or try to prevent the attack.

"They did not see the attacker and they did not have time to react," Noonan said. They knew they were being attacked "when the bomb exploded."

Meanwhile, a man claiming to speak on behalf of the ousted Taliban regime claimed responsibility for the attack.

Qari Mohammed Yousaf also warned there are many more suicide attackers "ready to go."

"We will continue this strategy until all foreign forces leave Afghanistan," he told The Associated Press.

Canadians in Afghanistan

Nine Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.

There are currently about 685 members of the Canadian Forces working in Afghanistan, and about 450 are stationed at the Kandahar base.

Canada plans to increase its military presence in Kandahar to 2,000 next month. It is a highly volatile city, and commanders have already warned to expect casualties.

"It's clear that this is not a peacekeeping mission," Canadian Col. S.J. Bowes said in a December report from The Associated Press. Bowes will assume responsibility for Kandahar.

However, Prime Minister Paul Martin said the mission was a worthy one.

"Our participation in the mission in Kandahar is essential for establishing peace and security in a nation that is struggling to find its way," he said during a campaign stop in Laval, Que., on Sunday.

In 2005, at least 1,600 people were killed in Afghanistan in attacks by insurgents. It was the deadliest year since 2001, when the Taliban was ousted for harbouring bin Laden, believed to be the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

The frequency of bombing attacks have also increased since last September, leading some to suggest that insurgents may have begun adopting tactics used in the Middle East.

"In any theatre of operations, there's a tactic-counter tactic and adaptation as each side feels each other out," said Noonan.

"There has been a change in tactics from the anti-coalition militia because they were not successful in their previous tactics. We are reasonably comfortable that our reaction to this one will be just as successful ... as the previous campaign."

Condolences offered

Martin expressed his condolences Sunday morning, as he confirmed the Canadian casualties.

"There was a tragic incident near Kandahar in Afghanistan where one Canadian was killed and three others were injured," said Martin.

"On behalf of all Canadians, I want to express my condolences to the family of the individual who was killed, and our prayers and best wishes to the family of the deceased, and to the families of the injured."

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper also extended his "deepest condolences" on behalf of his party and his family.

"Canadians serving abroad put their lives on the line every day in the name of freedom and democracy and, for that, we are very grateful," Harper said in a written statement.

"This incident is a reminder that we cannot take our security for granted - that those who serve face dangers we can only imagine," Harper said.