Brave IDF caught on tape using human shield

earth_as_one

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In wartime, soldiers cannot be abducted or kidnapped by the enemy. The correct term is captured. Technically, Lebanon and Israel are still at war. Therefore Hezbollah soldiers captured and killed Israeli soldiers in a military raid along the Israel/Lebanese border. Hezbollah killed more Israeli soldiers when they tried to rescue the captured soldiers. Both of these actions were legal as per international law and within the rules defined by the April Agreement.

But what we write here makes little difference. The next round in this war is inevitable.

Robert Fisk: Lebanon will be first victim of Iran crisis
Published: 21 February 2007



How easily the sparks from the American-Israeli fire fall across the Middle East. Every threat, every intransigence uttered in Washington and Tehran now burns a little bit more of Lebanon. It is not by chance that the UN forces in the south of the country now face growing suspicion among the Shia Muslims who live there. It is no coincidence that Israel thunders that the Hizbollah are now more powerful than they were before last year's July war. It is not an accident that Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbollah's leader, says he has brought more missiles into Lebanon.

Why, the Lebanese ask, did President Bashar al-Assad of Syria visit President Ahmadinejad of Iran last weekend? To further seal their "brotherly" relations? Or to plan a new war with Israel in Lebanon?

The images of Iran's new missile launches during three days of military manoeuvres - apparently long-range rockets which could be fired at US warships in the Gulf - were splashed across the Beirut papers yesterday morning, along with Washington's latest threats of air strikes against Iran's military. Be certain that the Lebanese will be the first to suffer.

For the West, the crisis in Lebanon - where Hizbollah and its allies are still demanding the resignation of Fouad Siniora's government - is getting more serious by the hour. Up to 20,000 UN troops - including Nato battalions of Spanish, French and Italian forces - are now billeted across the hillsides of southern Lebanon, in the very battleground upon which the Israelis and the Hizbollah are threatening to fight each other again.

If Israel is America's proxy (which the Lebanese don't doubt), then Hizbollah is Iran's proxy. The more the United States and Israel warn Iran of its supposed nuclear ambitions, the more Hizbollah increases the pressure on Lebanon...

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2290044.ece

Hezbollah must be fully rearmed by now. Meanwhile Israeli warplanes violate Lebanese airspace on a daily basis.



Israeli aircraft continue airspace violations
Monday, March 12, 2007

An Israeli drone entered Lebanese airspace Saturday evening, and reached the coastal town of Damour, a security report said. National News Agency correspondents said Israeli warplanes flew over the South and parts of the Bekaa Valley early Sunday...

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=80366

UN envoy raised forcefully Israeli violations of Lebanon airspace
Wednesday, 28 February, 2007 @ 1:49 AM

Beirut- A UN envoy told Lebanese leaders on Tuesday that he had "forcefully" raised Israel's persistent violations of Lebanese airspace with officials in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.


http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/02/un_envoy_raised.php

Back on the original subject of armed Israeli soldiers hiding behind unarmed civilians:

Israel's human shields draw fire



[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Human rights groups return to court over army's use of Palestinian civilians[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Chris McGreal in Hebron[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Thursday January 2, 2003[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The Guardian[/FONT]


..."The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," said Mr Maswadeh. "Then they put their guns on our shoulders and began shooting. We felt our eardrums burning, but when we tried to put our hands over our ears, they beat our hands away. The noise was terrible because the gun was right next to my ear."


The soldiers fired dozens of plastic bullets, using the three Palestinian men as shields, before the crowd dispersed.
In May, as Israeli human rights groups sought a supreme court order barring soldiers from seeking protection behind human shields after their widespread use during the army's assaults on Jenin and other West Bank cities, the military admitted the policy was illegal...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Nice fantasy CB, but the Canadian military has already targetted civilians in past wars.
Funny how you have dismissed the nazi roots of Arab militantcy, being antiquated, but here you are dredging up an antiquated policy, that is no longer a part of the SO of the Royal Canadian Air Force. Seeing as we are discussing comtemprary military tactics and international law, which has been greatly revised since the terror bombing of both London and Germany, this piece of tripe is...well just that, tripe.

Did Canadian bombers target German civilians during WW II?
Yes, reread my previous reply, a couple times.

Any country whose civilians have beed deliberately attacked like Lebanon's has the right to target civilians in response. That's why Israel should not have crossed that line first.
No they do not. That is in direct violation of most civilized nations SO's, period. Only in the deluded minds of you and the IDF and the Hezbollah, does this remain a viable tactic.

Furthermore, it was only crossed by the IDF first in your opinion. The facts tell quite a different story.

By the time Hezbollah launched its first rocket at Israeli civilians, Israel had already bombed Lebanon from one end to the other, killing hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians.
So what were all the rocket attacks up until that point for?
Hezbollah tolerated nearly two days of attacks on Lebanese civilians before they declared they would also target civilians.
Are you on glue???!!! They've been targetting Israeli civilians for years, without provocation.

Nations which target innocent civilians should expect that their civilians will be similarly targeted. Israel should not have crossed that line first.
Un uniformed armed Guerillas should expect high numbers of civilian deaths if they choose to hide amongst the civilian population and use civilian areas as launching points for attacks against a uniformed force, that has take the RoE directly from their own play book.
That statement does not support targetting of Israeli or Lebanese civilians. Its just an observation.
Nope, but this one sure does...
earth_as_one said:
If a hostile nation was killing hundreds of innocent Canadian civilians, I would expect the Canadian military to target that nation's innocent civilian in response just as Hezbollah did.
Nuff said, you are a supporter of targetting civilians.
In wartime, soldiers cannot be abducted or kidnapped by the enemy. The correct term is captured. Technically, Lebanon and Israel are still at war. Therefore Hezbollah soldiers captured and killed Israeli soldiers in a military raid along the Israel/Lebanese border. Hezbollah killed more Israeli soldiers when they tried to rescue the captured soldiers. Both of these actions were legal as per international law and within the rules defined by the April Agreement.
True, if they are held as POW's under terms of declared war. Seeing as the Hezbollah can not declare a legal war, they can not legal take POW's. Their past practice has been to kidnap IDF or Israeli citizens and barter them back to Israel. A clear and direct violation of INTERNATIONAL LAW. Seeing as you site INTERNATIONAL LAW all the time, as it pertains to Israeli violations, I find it hypocritical of you to ignore it when it suits your agenda.

But what we write here makes little difference. The next round in this war is inevitable.
Very true. Only if the Hezbollah, Hamas and so on, would cease breaking INTERNATIONAL LAWS, on both terrorism and un-uniformed armed forces, it could likely be avoided.

Hezbollah must be fully rearmed by now. Meanwhile Israeli warplanes violate Lebanese airspace on a daily basis.
As they recon the areas and hopefully are able to pin point the targets, so as to keep the civilian casualtis to a minimum, seeing as the Hezbollah has no intentions of doing so.

Back on the original subject of armed Israeli soldiers hiding behind unarmed civilians:
You still haven't addressed the fact that by your system of measurement, this seems to be quite alright. The mortality of IDF humanshields, is quite a bit lower then the mortality rate of the Lebonese humanshields, used by the Hezbollah.
 

earth_as_one

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Read the timeline for yourself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2006/07/12/CU2006071200913.html

Hezbollah's military raid on July 12 captured two soldiers and killed eight others. No civilians targeted or killed.

Israel responded to Hezbollah's raid by killing Lebanese civilians near roads, bridges, and power stations. Hezbollah still hadn't fired a single rocket at any civilian target by the time Israel had killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians across Lebanon and Israeli warplanes were busy killing civilians at Beirut international airport.

Do you claim that Hezbollah launched rockets at Israel from Beirut International airport before Israel bombed it? You are going to have to back that claim up.

Are you saying that Hezbollah launched rockets from inside Lebanese power stations before Israel began killing civilians in Lebanese power stations? You are going to have to back that claim up too.

The timeline above does not mention any Hezbollah rocket attacks between March 29 and July 12, 2006. Yet you claim Hezbollah has been killing Israeli civilians for years. Do you have any proof that Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians after July 12, 2006 were in response to regular Hezbollah attacks on Israel civilians?

If Hezbollah hadn't fired any rockets at Israel since before March 29, 2006 as the timeline suggests, then do you claim that Israel began killing Lebanese civilians after July 12, 2006 in response to Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israeli civilians before March 29, 2006? I'd like to hear your explanation for this.

Regarding IDF's use of human shields:

Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields
Among the most serious "human shielding" cases documented in Jenin by Human Rights Watch were the cases of four brothers, a father and his fourteen-year-old son, and two other men who were used to shield IDF soldiers from attack by Palestinian militants while the IDF soldiers occupied a large house located directly across from the main UNRWA compound in the camp. In separate interviews with Human Rights Watch, the victims described how they were forced to stand on the balcony of the house to deter Palestinian gunmen from firing in the direction of the IDF soldiers. The Palestinian civilians also described how the IDF soldiers had forced them to stand in front of the soldiers when the soldiers fired at Palestinian gunmen, while resting their rifles on the shoulders of the Palestinian civilians.
Imad Gharaib, aged thirty-four, was one of the four brothers. On Saturday, April 6, at about 6:00 a.m., a group of thirty to forty IDF soldiers entered the Gharaib family home, and forced the Gharaib brothers to walk in front of them as they searched the home. One of the IDF soldiers abused Imad, beating him with his rifle and threatening to shoot him if he did not reveal where he had hidden his gun (Imad said he does not possess a gun):
  • He asked me if I had any guns. I said, "No, I am only here with my family." He started beating me with the back of his gun, hitting me many times, insisting that I had a gun. ... He [then] threatened to shoot me and put the gun to my face. Then he moved the gun a bit and shot the television.82
After the soldiers had inspected the home, they tied the men up and, half an hour later, walked them over to a large neighboring house in which the IDF had set up a temporary base; the house was located directly across from the main UNRWA compound. The men were forced to stand outside, facing the Palestinian gunfire:
  • They ordered us to walk in front of them.... There was some shooting at the [IDF] soldiers [by Palestinian militants higher up in the camp.] They started pushing us and brought us down to another house. There, they put us on the veranda where we could be seen [by the Palestinian gunmen]. The soldiers were sitting inside the salon. We were facing the shooting, the soldiers did this to protect themselves. We could be clearly seen-if the fighters saw us they would not shoot.83
Kamal Tawalbi, a forty-three-year-old father of fourteen children, and his fourteen-year-old son were also taken to the same house and forced to stand facing the Palestinian gunfire. The IDF soldiers also placed them at the windows and forced them to stand in front of the soldiers as the soldiers shot at Palestinian gunmen in the camp:
  • They took me and my son. They put me in one corner and [my son] in the other corner [of the balcony]. The soldier put his gun on my shoulder. I was facing the soldier, we were face to face, with my back to the street. Then he started shooting. This situation lasted for three hours. My son was in the same position-he was facing the soldier, the soldier had his gun on his shoulder, and was shooting.84
The soldiers also treated Kamal Tawalbi and the other men with cruelty. During his interview with Human Rights Watch, Kamal Tawalbi-who had been taken from his home by the IDF soldiers while his home was burning from a helicopter strike-broke down in tears as he recounted how the IDF soldiers had tried to make him believe that his family had been killed while he was in custody:
  • I heard the noise from my family, I was very worried. Then, another missile hit the house. I started screaming, "My children, my children!" [One of the soldiers] said, "Shut up, because your family is dead, the house collapsed on them." He was a Bedouin from Beersheva, his name was Yusi. I started crying after this. When Yusi saw I was crying, he kicked me in the leg-he stomped on my foot and hurt it badly.85
Both men recalled how the soldiers had forced the men to lie face down on a floor covered with broken glass, and had tied their hands painfully tight behind their backs with plastic handcuffs. The men were then arrested and taken to a military camp for interrogation, and subsequently released at the village of Rumanah.
Faisal Abu Sariya, a forty-two-year-old schoolteacher, also was used as a human shield by the IDF and forced to carry out dangerous tasks. Soldiers entered Abu Sariya's home on the second day of the Israeli incursion, at about 4:00 a.m. on Thursday, April 4, accompanied by Abu Sariya's neighbor:
  • Early, at 4:00 a.m., my daughter woke me and told me there were some people at the door. I opened the door and one of my neighbors, Arafat, told me the soldiers had sent him to tell me that the soldiers were behind my home and wanted us all to go into one room of the house.86
Abu Sariya went back inside his home, woke up his family and made all of them go to one room. The soldiers then entered, and asked Abu Sariya's twelve-year-old son to enter the various rooms of the house and open all the dressers inside. A soldier set up a position at one window, and then kicked over the television that was in his way. The next morning, the soldiers ordered Abu Sariya to accompany them:
  • The next morning they told me to join them. I asked them, "Am I wanted [for arrest]? Are you taking me to jail?" He said he just wanted me to go next door and they would release me. My wife and children were crying, begging them to release me.87
For the next two days, Abu Sariya was coerced into accompanying the soldiers, to enter homes even before the IDF soldiers sent in their bomb-sniffing dogs, and to march in front of the soldiers as they moved in the streets of Jenin refugee camp:
  • They pointed a house out to me. They said, "Go knock on the door, tell all the people to go in one room, and come back." I knocked on the door and there was no answer. They put a small bomb the size of a pack of cigarettes on the door and opened it. They ordered me to go inside. I checked and found no one inside. Then they asked me to go out and sent in the dog. Then, when the dog came back, they went inside....
    Then we went to another house. Whenever they wanted to move, [a soldier] would grab me by the collar, put me in front of him, and move like this. They used me like this between houses-in case there was some shooting, I would die first.
    I asked them, "Please release me, you promised me [to go to] just one house, let me go." At least five times a day I would ask them. They would always say that they would release me once they found a substitute.88
On Saturday, April 6, after two days with the soldiers, Abu Sariya was ordered to go knock on the door of a home by the soldiers, while the soldiers hid themselves on the opposite side of the street. As he ran across the street, another group of IDF soldiers located on the roofs overhead opened fire on Abu Sariya and seriously wounded him in the leg. The two groups of IDF soldiers then began arguing. Rather than taking the seriously wounded Abu Sariya to the hospital, the soldiers provided him with some first aid-bandaging the wound-and then ordered four Palestinian youngsters to carry him away. Unable to reach the hospital, the Palestinian youngsters were forced to leave Abu Sariya at a private home in the Hawashin/Damaj area of the camp. Abu Sariya was forced to stay four more days without medical treatment, unable to leave because of snipers in the area, until IDF soldiers announced on Tuesday, April 9, that everyone in the area had to leave their homes.89
Aziz Taha, aged twenty-six, was arrested from his house in al-Dahab district on Sunday, April 7, at approximately 2:00 p.m., when IDF soldiers burst through a hole they had bored in the wall from his neighbor's garden. Blindfolded, his hands were tied with plastic ligatures before he was pushed back through the hole in the wall the way they had come. He was put on the veranda and his blindfold was taken off; he faced up the hillside into the camp. He took Human Rights Watch to the location and explained what had happened to him.
Aziz Taha was then taken through a maze of interconnected houses, eventually reaching an assembly point on the western edge of the camp. The soldiers arresting him forced him at gunpoint to walk ahead of them, particularly when crossing exposed alleys or in other vulnerable positions. On multiple occasions, there were firefights and Aziz Taha was caught in the crossfire. Aziz Taha retraced his steps together with Human Rights Watch, pointing out the route burrowed through neighbors' houses and places where he was beaten. Retracing the steps through holes bored in the walls, the houses' inhabitants pointed out the extensive damage and vandalism that had been done by the soldiers.
Aziz showed Human Rights Watch one alley where he was particularly exposed during a battle:
  • He made me walk alone up the alley, to the left. Then as we came around the corner, the soldier hid. Shooting came from above, I don't know who was firing. During this time he made me stand in front of a house, for fifteen minutes the battle was going on and the soldier was hiding.90
In Lutfi Badawi's house, again Aziz was made to stand on a terrace, exposed to the north to fire coming from the lower part of the camp near the UNRWA building. "There was shooting, it was coming towards me but I don't know from where."
The entire journey, a mere 500 meters as the crow flies, took Aziz and the soldier twelve hours. When he reached the western edge of the camp with the soldiers, Aziz Taha was forced to take off his clothes and was severely beaten.
  • I was in my underwear, nothing else. They put me in a house and let me sit down. They made fun of me, spit on me, and starting asking me questions, but when I answered they would just mock me. While I was there, one soldier urinated on me, he cursed at me, but this is nothing, because then he did more. I have nine scars on my legs, so when I stripped they saw them and said you were fighting two months ago, although the scars were much older. They started beating me then with something metal, it was very painful. They also used the plastic ligatures they were using as handcuffs. They [tied a bunch of them together into a whip] and used them to beat me on the soles of my feet.91
Aziz Taha was then transported to Salem, where he was detained for four days before being released in Rumana village.
Sixty-five-year-old Lutfiya Abu Zeid told Human Rights Watch that IDF soldiers twice took her from the room where she was taking shelter to use her as a human shield. The first time was at approximately 5:00 p.m. on April 6, when they made her go with them and open doors as they checked a neighboring house. They returned at about 9:00 p.m. the same day; Lutfiya had just started to pray. "The soldier said come here and I said, who me? He said yes." The soldiers took her by her shoulders and held her in front of them as they exited the house and were joined by other soldiers. They took Lutfiya onto the roof and left her in plain sight as a battle began.
  • About forty soldiers had come into the [courtyard], they were wearing goggles so that they could see at night, it was scary, like they were going to go swim. They took me to the stairs up to the new house, it isn't finished yet. I said I was really scared, that I couldn't walk. They put me on the roof, and [entered that house through the wall]..... They started an attack, and I felt like I should go home. Every five minutes there was a rocket, they didn't care what they were shooting. They were in a house, the neighbors' house, but they left me where the helicopters could see me, but they were safe. I stayed there for about 10 minutes, and then I got scared and left.
The soldiers did not object when Lutfiya went back downstairs.92
Muhammad Qataish, aged twenty-four, lived near the camp entrance, above the government hospital. At about 4:30 p.m. on Friday, April 5, Qataish and his family were sheltering from helicopter and other fire in the living room of his house. IDF soldiers broke down the back door and entered the house. In response to the soldiers' orders, Qataish raised his hands, then lifted his shirt and pulled down his trousers. He was then ordered to search the house, room by room at gunpoint. Qataish was then ordered to search the neighboring house, his uncle's, the same way. After they had finished, all the young men were taken out of the house and lined up against a wall.
Qataish and his brother Khaled thought the soldiers were going to arrest them. To their surprise, the soldiers took them both onto the street, and formed one line of soldiers behind each brother. Qataysh told Human Rights Watch:
  • We were lined up along the street, Khaled and myself, each with a line of soldiers behind us. One soldier was resting his M16 on Khaled's right shoulder. I was on Khaled's right. They marched us from the house, along Hawakeen Street, into the middle of the camp, the Hawashin area. They did not say a word. Khaled asked them where we were going. The soldier said, "If you make any noise, we'll shoot you! It was about 4:30 p.m. There were about twenty to twenty-five soldiers with us."93
After walking approximately twenty minutes, the soldiers stopped them at a house on the edge of the Hawashin district. After attempting to force Khaled and then Qataish to enter the house, the soldiers were then fired upon by armed Palestinians. After an exchange of fire the soldiers withdrew, but took the brothers with them. Back near his father's house the soldiers kicked Qataish and beat him with their rifle butts before taking the brothers into detention. The two brothers remained in detention for four days, during which they were fed once.
In a separate interview with Human Rights Watch Muhammad (not his real name), a Palestinian militant who participated in the fighting, corroborated Qataish's account. "The Israelis were in a trap, we could have killed them. But we would have had to kill the boys too. Their brother was with us and begged us not to. We had the chance to kill the twenty-five soldiers, but we did not."94
In an interview with the New York Times, a group of Israeli soldiers in Jenin admitted that they had used Palestinian civilians to shield themselves from attack by Palestinian gunmen. "Yes, because of the snipers [we used Palestinian civilians]," one of the soldiers stated, "If the sniper sees his friend there, he won't shoot." A soldier also told the New York Times that they had used Palestinian civilians to open the doors of homes out of fear of booby-traps: "We had a soldier who opened a door and was killed by a booby-trap that went off in his face. We let them [Palestinian civilians] open the door. If he knows it is booby-trapped, he won't open it."95

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-06.htm#P604_103426
 
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Pangloss

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Mar 16, 2007
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God's chosen land - what a load of crap. Honestly - I've been trying to write a response to this thread for a couple of hours now - and all I can say is - kill 'em all and plant orange groves.

I'm wrong, I know. But the evil, the hate, the lies - on all sides - are at the point that nobody has a realistic hope of redemption.

What a strong - nay irrefutable - argument against a loving god the Middle East is.

Pangloss
 

CDNBear

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Read the timeline for yourself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2006/07/12/CU2006071200913.html

Hezbollah's military raid on July 12 captured two soldiers and killed eight others. No civilians targeted or killed.
An act of terrorism. By a state allowed un-uniformed terrorist group, provoking a response of military action.

Israel responded to Hezbollah's raid by killing Lebanese civilians near roads, bridges, and power stations. Hezbollah still hadn't fired a single rocket at any civilian target by the time Israel had killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians across Lebanon and Israeli warplanes were busy killing civilians at Beirut international airport.
Structures and facilities that are a tactical target and the first to be targetted by all military forces, nothing out of the ordinary there. The civilian casualies are collateral damage, not the intended targets as with the Hezbollah.

Do you claim that Hezbollah launched rockets at Israel from Beirut International airport before Israel bombed it? You are going to have to back that claim up.
Nope, but the airport is a viable source of weaponry and personel, therefore it is a legitamate military target.

Are you saying that Hezbollah launched rockets from inside Lebanese power stations before Israel began killing civilians in Lebanese power stations? You are going to have to back that claim up too.
Nope, once again, a legitimate military target.

The timeline above does not mention any Hezbollah rocket attacks between March 29 and July 12, 2006. Yet you claim Hezbollah has been killing Israeli civilians for years. Do you have any proof that Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians after July 12, 2006 were in response to regular Hezbollah attacks on Israel civilians?
No, Israel's responce was for the kidnapping of IDF Soldiers. But the Hezbollah and the Hamas has been harrassing Isarel with rocket fire and suicide bombers for decades, prove that to be a lie.

Furthermore, the IDF did not target civilians, they targeted key tactical targets, the civilian deaths were regrettable collatoral damage. If the IDF had targetted civilians, there would have been more then the couple hundred dead Lebonese, and the several hundred Hezbollah. The death toll doesn't even support your BULSHYTE, nazi supporter.

If Hezbollah hadn't fired any rockets at Israel since before March 29, 2006 as the timeline suggests, then do you claim that Israel began killing Lebanese civilians after July 12, 2006 in response to Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israeli civilians before March 29, 2006? I'd like to hear your explanation for this.
As I have stated clear and several times, the military action that transpired, was a direct result of the illegal kidnapping of two IDF Soldiers. But the Hezbollah and Hamas, has been firing rockets into Israel sporatically for quite some time. This is always over looked by you, until you are forced to see it, then you justify it by Israel's "occupation" of disputed lands.

But seeing as civilians were not targetted, that is just some bs you make to feel good, the point is moot. The Hezbollah, an illegal un-uniformed terrorist group, kidnapped IDF Soldiers and key tactical targets were hit. If civilian Lebonese were killed in that action, they were collateral damage and the fault lays squarely on the heads of the Hezbollah and the gov't of Lebanon, for allowing the terrorists to function within their nation.

Regarding IDF's use of human shields:
It's still no big deal according to your math. Remember your math? You know the disproportionate amount of Palestinian dead and destroyed homes, as compared to the lower amount of Israel dead and destroyed homes at the hands of Hamas and such. Remember that math?

By that math, your math, the IDF using a few humanshields, with a better low mortality rate, is better then the Hezbollah using several hundred humanshields, with a catostrophic mortality rate.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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God's chosen land - what a load of crap. Honestly - I've been trying to write a response to this thread for a couple of hours now - and all I can say is - kill 'em all and plant orange groves.

I'm wrong, I know. But the evil, the hate, the lies - on all sides - are at the point that nobody has a realistic hope of redemption.

What a strong - nay irrefutable - argument against a loving god the Middle East is.

Pangloss

This response intrigues me. Sounds to me like you had a moment of clarity. Its true that hate and evil are present on all sides, but don't become overly pessimistic.... amazing stories of tolerance, forgiveness and unselfish acts also exist in this little corner of the world too.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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This response intrigues me. Sounds to me like you had a moment of clarity. Its true that hate and evil are present on all sides, but don't become overly pessimistic.... amazing stories of tolerance, forgiveness and unselfish acts also exist in this little corner of the world too.
Not for long. Especially when people like you condone the targetting of civilians, under the childish excuse of, "well they did it first".
 

earth_as_one

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When your adversaries are capable of stuff like this:

Lebanon 1996
It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong.

In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child.

"The Israelis have just told us they'll stop shelling the area", a UN soldier said, shaking with anger. "Are we supposed to thank them?" In the remains of a burning building - the conference room of the Fijian UN headquarters - a pile of corpses was burning. The roof had crashed in flames onto their bodies, cremating them in front of my eyes. When I walked towards them, I slipped on a human hand...

Israel's slaughter of civilians in this terrible 10-day offensive - 206 by last night - has been so cavalier, so ferocious, that not a Lebanese will forgive this massacre. There had been the ambulance attacked on Saturday, the sisters killed in Yohmor the day before, the 2-year-old girl decapitated by an Israeli missile four days ago. And earlier yesterday, the Israelis had slaughtered a family of 12 - the youngest was a four- day-old baby - when Israeli helicopter pilots fired missiles into their home.

Shortly afterwards, three Israeli jets dropped bombs only 250 metres from a UN convoy on which I was travelling, blasting a house 30 feet into the air in front of my eyes. Travelling back to Beirut to file my report on the Qana massacre to the Independent last night, I found two Israeli gunboats firing at the civilian cars on the river bridge north of Sidon....

WARNING Link Has a GRAPHIC IMAGE
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html

and are in the process of doing this:

Lebanon 2006
Attacks on Civilian Homes

Since July 12, when Hezbollah launched an attack on Israeli positions initially killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two, Israel and Hezbollah have engaged in intense hostilities. Israel has carried out hundreds of strikes against targets in Lebanon, including extensive attacks against Lebanon’s infrastructure, private homes and apartment buildings, as well as vehicles moving on roads. Israeli strikes have been especially heavy in Shi’a-dominated areas of Lebanon, considered to be Hezbollah strongholds, including southern Lebanon, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and the Beqaa Valley.

To date, the chief cause of civilian deaths from the Israeli campaign is targeted strikes on civilian homes in villages of Lebanon’s South. There has also been large-scale destruction of civilian apartment buildings in southern Beirut, though most of the residents of those buildings had evacuated prior to the attacks. According to the Lebanese Ministry of Social Affairs, the IDF destroyed or damaged up to 5,000 civilian homes in air strikes during the first two weeks of the war.6 As demonstrated by the case studies below, Israel has caused large-scale civilian casualties by striking civilian homes, with no apparent military objective either inside the home or in the vicinity. In some cases, warplanes returned to strike again while residents and neighbors had gathered around the house to remove the dead and assist the wounded....

...
Neighbors of mine left with a van and two cars, and I went with them. We first stopped at Bent Jbeil at the hospital because there was a plane in the air. When we started again, the plane came and hit the road in front and behind us, just ten meters away from us, with bombs. But we just kept driving. We were flying white flags. Along the way, we saw the dead still inside the cars. I remember well when we approached es-Soultaniye, there was a Mercedes 300 overturned with dead people inside, we wanted to stop but the driver said we would be hit. There were men, women and children, I remember seeing two dead children. Along the way, we met an old woman who was crying by the side of the road because no-one wanted to take her, so we took her with us. There was lots of destruction, all of the gas stations were bombed and we drove as fast as we could. It only got better when we crossed the Litani River.90
Israel at times gave assurances to officials at UNIFIL that civilian cars traveling north on the main roads would not be attacked.91 However, as documented in a number of examples below, Israel repeatedly attacked both individual vehicles and entire convoys of civilians who heeded the Israeli warnings to abandon their villages. The attacks on civilian vehicles were so fierce that, according to the Lebanese Red Cross, one ambulance driver witnessed three separate attacks while driving from Tebnine to Tyre with wounded civilans: first he witnessed the car in front of the ambulance get hit and fall into a ravine near Kafra; then a van got hit in Siddiquine, the blast of the explosion throwing the car into the air and hitting the ambulance on its side; and then a motorcycle got hit on the road near Hanaouay.92
Although Israeli officials are no doubt aware of the civilian casualties that their bombing of vehicles has caused, such attacks continued apace as this report went to print. At best, the continued attacks on fleeing civilians show reckless disregard by Israel for its obligation to distinguish between civilian and military objects, and a complete failure to take adequate safeguards to prevent civilian deaths. At worst, Israel is deliberately targeting civilian vehicles as part of the price that must be paid to stop all traffic in parts of Lebanon. Either way, Israel is flagrantly violating its obligations under international humanitarian law, and its widespread attacks on civilian vehicles are war crimes....

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/

What would be an appropriate response?

Put yourself in Lebanon's situation. They are are facing an enemy which is openly committing war crimes against Lebanese civilians.

What is an appropriate response?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
Kick the Hezbollah out and try stepping away from the nazi ideology.

Begin a dialogue with Israel.

How's that?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Guernica is a statement about modern warfare. I could explain it, but someone already has:


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Distance from Guernica to Lebanon [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Ramzi Kysia[/FONT]​
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As I write this, I can hear Israeli warplanes flying overhead, breaking the sound barrier and rattling all of our windows. In the distance there are explosions. I don't know where the bombs are dropping, but it's not close to me. I can't hear the screaming of the survivors from where I sit.

Hezbollah and Hamas may possess the ability to kill dozens of Israeli civilians and terrorize countless others, but they are not an existential threat to Israel. As events on the ground have unmistakably demonstrated over this past month, today it is Israel that is a clear and present danger to the further existence of the Lebanese and Palestinian peoples. A danger, if not to their very lives - then certainly to the continuation of their nations.

This is the third, catastrophic attack I've lived through. I was in New York City on September 11. I was in Baghdad during "Shock and Awe." It's not something you ever get used to. That so much hatred can live in the world, so much indifference to human suffering-- living under that hatred and indifference is almost as hard as living under the bombs.

As I write this, over two hundred Lebanese have been killed. Almost all of them were civilians.
I think of Guernica.

On April 26, 1937, during the Spanish Civil War, the German Air Force, siding with fascist dictator Francisco Franco, began a bombing campaign against the city of Guernica. Some 1,600 people were killed, and the city was reduced to rubble. Guernica is remembered as the first time air power was used against a civilian population with the intent of causing complete destruction.

When it happened, Guernica shocked the world. Today, we do not shock so easily. Lebanon is being sacrificed without so much as a casual protest.

Israel has bombed power plants, roads, and bridges all across Lebanon. Israel has bombed gas stations and fuel depots, grain silos, lighthouses, the seaports in Beirut, Tripoli, Jounieh and Tyre. Beirut's airport is in flames. Beirut's Shi'a suburbs have been almost completely demolished. Firefighters are pleading for help, because they do not have enough water to put out the blazes. (1)

I think of Guernica.
Israel has ordered all of the people living in Southern Lebanon to flee their homes and villages. Avi Dichter, Israel's Minister of Internal Security, told us that "tens of thousands of Lebanese who will flee towards the north will create the right pressure on Hezbollah." (2)

Two nights ago, eighteen people in the South were burned alive when Israel bombed their fleeing convoy with incendiary shells. Eleven of the dead were children under the age of twelve. Mahmoud Ghannam, the father of two of the killed children, broke down when he saw their bodies. He struck himself in the head repeatedly and cried, "my God, my God. I can't make out the faces of my children. They are burnt black... Which ones are my children?" (3)

A copy of Pablo Picasso's famous painting of the annihilation of Guernica was hung outside the chambers of the UN Security Council, as a reminder of why the United Nations was created, and of what the Security Council is supposed to prevent. In 2003, the United States ordered the eleven foot painting covered, so as not to even subtly embarrass American diplomats pressing for a war against Iraq. (4)

We are supposed to forget what modern warfare means.
Living in Lebanon today, I cannot forget. I remember Guernica.

Today, Lebanon is being forced toward total ruin. If Israel's intent is just to destroy Hezbollah, then why are they bombing Christian and Sunni neighborhoods and towns? Why did Israel wait until July 15 to bomb Hezbollah's headquarters in Beirut, making sure to first bomb power plants, bridges and roads throughout the entire country? Israel's clear intent is to trash this entire country, smash everything that makes Lebanon a modern nation, and demolish all of the work the Lebanese have done over the last fifteen years to rebuild their country.

As Lebanon is ravaged, U.S. President George Bush loudly and proudly asserts Israel's right to "self-defense." (5)

As Lebanon is ravaged, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rica announces that Israel should continue bombing to "reduce the threat" from Hezbollah. (6)

Do Arabs possess the right to defend themselves from Israel?

As Lebanon is laid to waste, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has secured himself newfound adulation within Israel. Everyone apparently loves a killer. (7)

As Lebanon is destroyed, Olmert has announced that he will refuse to meet with a UN delegation attempting to secure a cease-fire (8), George Bush has publicly refused to call for a cease-fire (9), and the United States is blocking other nations on the Security Council from calling for a cease-fire (10).

On "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," Condoleezza Rice not only defended Israel's actions in Lebanon and U.S. policy in Iraq, but said "[Mid-East] hostilities were not very well contained, as we found out on Sept. 11, and so the notion that somehow policies that finally confront extremism are actually causing extremism, I find grotesque."

Grotesque. As if Lebanon or Iraq--or even Hamas or Hezbollah--had anything whatsoever to do with September 11.

I remember what is grotesque. I remember Guernica.
When Westerners speak of "smashing the infrastructure of terror," it is understand that they mean all of the Arab peoples themselves. Arabs are "the infrastructure of terror."

Speaking against a cease-fire, Rice added, "We have to go at the root cause. . It's fine to have a cessation of violence. .But unless we go to the fundamentals here, we're going to continue to have these spikes of violence in the Middle East as we have had for the past 30 years." (11)

According to the Washington Post, going to these fundamentals means that Israel and the United States are going to prevent any cease-fire and continue bombing Lebanon for "several weeks" in order to establish their version of peace in the region. (12)
Indeed. I remember Guernica. I understand the peace of the jackboot and whip.

Dare any American or Israeli ever again ask, "Why do they hate us?"

The clear conviction being spoken by all of the politicians in Israel and America is that their absolute security is absolutely dependent on the complete insecurity of Arabs everywhere. And the clear lesson being taught to generations of children growing up in the rubble of what once was the shining jewel of the Middle East is simply this: their security can only be dependent on the future insecurity of America and Israel.

Former U.S. Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich also took the opportunity to strongly defend this point of view. In an interview on Saturday, Gingrich said that Israel and America must be forceful because, "we need to have the militancy that says 'We're not going to lose a city.'"

So, apparently, Lebanon is going to lose several.

Gingrich belittled the idea of negotiations or a possible ceasefire by saying, "this idea that we have this one-sided war where the other team gets to plan how to kill us and we get to talk, is nuts." (13)

A hundred years ago President Teddy Roosevelt famously told Americans to "talk softly and carry a big stick." Today the spiritual, if not political, heirs to Generalissimo Franco are riding high in Tel Aviv and Washington D.C., and they've gone one better than Roosevelt.

Today, they don't talk at all.

Ramzi Kysia is an Arab-American essayist and peace activist. He spent a year in Iraq with Voices in the Wilderness, the Chicago-based predecessor to Voices for Creative Nonviolence. He is currently living in Lebanon, and working on a book about his experiences.
Sources 1. "Israelis intensify bombardment of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure," Daily Star (17 July 2006)
2. "Lebanese villagers ordered out," AFP (17 July 2006)
3. "Jets 'incinerate' fleeing family," AFP (16 July 2006)
4. "The Lessons of Guernica," Toronto Star (9 February 2003)
5. "Mideast flare-up follows Bush to Russia," AP (14 July 2006)
6. "Rice Says Israel May Need to Prolong Offensive," New York Times (16 July 2006)
7. "War Gives Israeli Leader Political Capital," New York Times (16 July 2006)
8. "Lebanon bows on border demand," The Australian (17 July 2006)
9. "Bush won't pressure Israel for cease-fire," AP (14 July 2006)
10. "Lebanon: U.S. blocking call for cease-fire," AP (15 July 2006)
11. "Rice Defends Israel, Calls Criticisms of Bush Policy 'Grotesque'," ABC News Online (16 July 2006)
12. "Strikes Are Called Part of Broad Strategy," Washington Post (16 July 2006)
13. "Let's face it, it's WWIII, Gingrich says," Seattle Times (16 July 2006)

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0717-23.htm

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