Boomtime for Mafia governments

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Or you give it a choice between the current system and consumers' cooperative. According to the current system, a natural monopoly must submit to all kinds of government regulation, can only own a maximum percentage of the market and must sell off any excess, must share its network with the competition if that is the only network available, etc.

I believe offering this option to phone companies and other natural monopolies might be reasonable too, whereby they would have a choice of either submitting to the current rules or become a consumers' cooperative if they wish to circumvent these regulations.

That I think would be a reasonable alternative.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Buy 1 share of an oil company and you do have a vote; even better, don't purchase the product(s) of those companies with which you disagree... Run 'em out of business and the message gets through to those that are left that they dance top the tune that the consumer calls.

As far as I'm aware, oil companies do not have a monopoly. I'm just saying if there is any resource, perhaps valuable gems or such like, that do have such a monopoly.

Remember too that a monopolized company would have no obligation to sell its shares, especially if it's family owned, or owned by a small group of people who wish to maintain that control.

It could also be difficult to avoid it if they sell a resource no others have access to and that is absolutely necessary for a particular medical or other purpose. At that stage, they'd have us by the nuts.

Again, I don't know if this applies to any resource company and I highly doubt it, but if...
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
475
13
18
As far as I'm aware, oil companies do not have a monopoly. I'm just saying if there is any resource, perhaps valuable gems or such like, that do have such a monopoly.

Remember too that a monopolized company would have no obligation to sell its shares, especially if it's family owned, or owned by a small group of people who wish to maintain that control.

It could also be difficult to avoid it if they sell a resource no others have access to and that is absolutely necessary for a particular medical or other purpose. At that stage, they'd have us by the nuts.

Again, I don't know if this applies to any resource company and I highly doubt it, but if...


There is no such thing as a monopolized company. What you are referring to are private companies. family owned or otherwise, those groups are really no different in the ownership of an asset/resource than you "owning" your home.

You've come up with some real extreme examples (ie medical-related resource) and fail to recognize that here in Canada, the only "payer" in the system is government. With that in mind, the "public" also has the private company by the nuts as well.

Lastly, no where do you recognize that all of these private companies pay heavily into the public purse directly through taxes and indirectly through royalties, the purchase of mineral rights, licensing, fees, permits, etc.

The "people" are already 50% (in most cases) partners in these companies... You want to carve-off a bigger piece of flesh, be prepared for those private groups to flee the jurisdiction and take all of their investment dollars with them.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
It gives the Americans access to purchase or invest in those resources without punitive tariffs, duties or taxes... It's also a 2-way street, Canada has that same access to American resources.

Yeah, right. the USA has so many natural resources Canada so desperately needs. So far as resource access is concerned the USA needs Canada far more than Canada needs the US.

That's nothing but speculation. As far as the 1970's were concerned, NAFTA was not in place.

No it is not speculation. It is a prediction based on past reactions of the USA in almost every nation in the Americas and many more in other parts of the world. Given the fact that the US has reacted strongly against any nation that has attempted to gain control of its own resources there is every reason to believe it would act the same way again. You really need to check your own history.

And you missed the point about NAFTA - it is in place which makes it all the more difficult for Canada to deny Americans the right to exploit its resources.
Speculation and conspiracy theory...

And where did the nonsense about conspiracy come from? There is nothing in my post about any conspiracy. The reactions of the US government to Canadian nationalists and nationalists in other countries are quite well documented. As I said you really need to know your own history.

Sure, I'll give you that I wouldn't trust a politician as far as I could throw 'em, but to make the statement that Canada can never control it's own resources because of this is tin-foil-hat talk.

Once again I am speaking from a knowledge of the way Canadian governments at the provincial and federal level have acted for the last few decades. Pierre Trudeau was the only Prime Minister I know of who tried to stand up to the USA and he was branded a communist by many in the US Congress. I am also speaking from the knowledge that many Canadians have bought into the failed economics of Friedmanism and strongly support the giving away of their own country. Don't call anything tin hat folk talk that you obviously know so little about. If you can find the slightest evidence of any movement in Canada to reacquire control of its own resources I would be very surprised.

I am an economic nationalist. I would like to see US influence in Canadian industry drastically reduced, especially in areas that Canadians could easily do without, but sadly I see very little prospect of that happening.
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
475
13
18
Yeah, right. the USA has so many natural resources Canada so desperately needs. So far as resource access is concerned the USA needs Canada far more than Canada needs the US.


Canada's biggest trading partner... It's not a one-way street.



No it is not speculation. It is a prediction based on past reactions of the USA in almost every nation in the Americas and many more in other parts of the world. Given the fact that the US has reacted strongly against any nation that has attempted to gain control of its own resources there is every reason to believe it would act the same way again. You really need to check your own history.


Got a link?

Making observations after-the-fact that conform to a pre-conceived belief is not proof of anything.

BTW - While I will grant that the US applied their influence in the "banana republic" nations is no where close to your assertion that the US "reacted strongly against any nation that has attempted to gain control of its own resources". You've lumped Canada into this and I can't agree in any way.


And you missed the point about NAFTA - it is in place which makes it all the more difficult for Canada to deny Americans the right to exploit its resources.


Again, it's a 2-way street and secondly, NAFTA doesn't automatically relinquish Canada's natural resource base. Consider for one minute that this current economic recession that has hit the States harder than Canada has resulted in more Canadians buying real estate and properties in the USA... It doesn't get any more bi-lateral than that.

You've applied the most extreme interpretation possible - it simply is not reality.


And where did the nonsense about conspiracy come from? There is nothing in my post about any conspiracy. The reactions of the US government to Canadian nationalists and nationalists in other countries are quite well documented. As I said you really need to know your own history.



Directly from your self-fulling prophecy that if the Americans aren't in engaging some kind of clandestine program of world domination, then the politicos in Canada will make sure it happens.



Once again I am speaking from a knowledge of the way Canadian governments at the provincial and federal level have acted for the last few decades.


Like what?


Pierre Trudeau was the only Prime Minister I know of who tried to stand up to the USA and he was branded a communist by many in the US Congress.


Archive | October 16, 2000 | Trudeau and his Communist friends
"It was completely expected that Cuban dictator Fidel Castro showed up for Trudeau's state funeral on October 5, after he declared three days of mourning in his totalitarian state. The two were great buddies ever since Trudeau visited Cuba in 1973 and proclaimed "Viva Castro!" One only has to read Armando Valladaras' Against All Hope to get a good sense of the moral degeneracy it takes to utter such words about the father of Cuba's concentration camp system."

And...

"Castro, of course, was not alone in enjoying Trudeau's publicly-declared endorsements. The same year he pronounced "Viva Castro!" Trudeau also praised Mao Tse-tung's revolution in China, stating that Mao had delivered a wonderful system to his people. At that time, it was already well-documented in the West that Mao's gulag had liquidated more than 60 million human lives."


And..

"As Prime Minister, Trudeau was enchanted with pacifism -- in the face of the "general will" of course. Thus, Trudeau tried to pull Canada out of NATO. Failing that, he succeeded in cutting in half Canada's NATO commitments in Europe, and in decimating the preparedness of his own armed forces at home. Trudeau never forgot about Cuba. In 1976, he made sure to help Castro's effort to liberate Angolan citizens from their individual interests, and to help subordinate them to the "general will." Thus, Trudeau allowed Cuban transport planes to refuel in Newfoundland before they picked up arms in the Soviet Union and flew to Angola to fight for class utopia"



And...


"...he studied in London under Harold Laski, Britain's leading leftist guru. In 1950 he visited Moscow under the auspices of a communist-front group. He was mildly critical of some of the things that were going on there but never denounced the worst dictatorship on earth, outside of China. Later, as prime minister, he visited the USSR's far north, sang the praises of a city that had been build on dead men's bones.."

Give this a read and get back to me on the great PET.
Pierre Trudeau - A Systematic Look at Trudeau's Legacy



I am also speaking from the knowledge that many Canadians have bought into the failed economics of Friedmanism and strongly support the giving away of their own country. Don't call anything tin hat folk talk that you obviously know so little about. If you can find the slightest evidence of any movement in Canada to reacquire control of its own resources I would be very surprised.


Suggesting a command economy are we?

It hasn't worked in the (former) USSR and in the event you want a more contemporary example of the philosophy you are promoting, consider Cuba and North Korea... Real bastions of freedom and quality of life.



I am an economic nationalist. I would like to see US influence in Canadian industry drastically reduced, especially in areas that Canadians could easily do without, but sadly I see very little prospect of that happening.


Great, you ought to get the cash together to buy-out the foreign companies.. You'll want to get more cash to invest in teh development of those resources while you're at it.

It's just that easy.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Canada's biggest trading partner... It's not a one-way street.

There was no reference in my post to trade. I mentioned natural resources and so far as those are concerned the US needs Canada a great deal more than Canada needs the US.

Got a link?

How many links would you like? Try Googling "US intervention" and you get thousands of hits. But here is a start. I always think it important that people know something of their own history.

Latin America ? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History of U.S. Military Interventions since 1890

This last one is interesting as it is a response from an economic nationalist to US involvement in Canada's economy.

James Laxer: Surviving American Imperialism

Making observations after-the-fact that conform to a pre-conceived belief is not proof of anything.

You are certainly correct there. I wish you would stop doing it.

BTW - While I will grant that the US applied their influence in the "banana republic" nations is no where close to your assertion that the US "reacted strongly against any nation that has attempted to gain control of its own resources". You've lumped Canada into this and I can't agree in any way.

Strangely you make this statement, but then include Cuba in your references. I guess you do not see the multiple US attempts to assassinate Castro and the deliberate attempt to wreck the Cuban economy as a strong reaction.

You might also take a look at the US reaction to the takeover of the Sandanistas in Nicaragua. Somehow financing an invasion seems a little extreme to me. But then I am not an American desperately defending US imperialism.

Again, it's a 2-way street and secondly, NAFTA doesn't automatically relinquish Canada's natural resource base. Consider for one minute that this current economic recession that has hit the States harder than Canada has resulted in more Canadians buying real estate and properties in the USA... It doesn't get any more bi-lateral than that.

It is hardly bilateral given the fact that for every potential Canadian buyer of US properties there are ten US buyers for Canadian properties. I naively assumed you would realize that the US economy is much larger than Canada's. In order for Canada to have any impact on the US it would have to engage in a large scale campaign to take over US businesses and even that might not work.

Directly from your self-fulling prophecy that if the Americans aren't in engaging some kind of clandestine program of world domination, then the politicos in Canada will make sure it happens.

You are a master of misinterpretation. Nothing in my post spoke of a US desire to dominate the world. But now that you mention it, many of the actions of the USA during the Cold War could easily be interpreted that way. Thank you for pointing that out.

Like what?

I am speaking of the fact that every government elected in Canada during the last ten decades or so has gone out of its way to attract US investment, in the mistaken belief that foreign investment was the only way to prosperity.


I have no idea why you posted the info on Trudeau except for the fact that I pointed out he was the only Canadian leader to attempt to ease the stranglehold the US held on Canada's resource sector. None of it has any relevance to this discussion. I assume you think I was a supporter of Trudeau. In fact I was not, although I do admire the fact that he managed to annoy the "great" Ronald Reagan on numerous occasions.

Suggesting a command economy are we?

It hasn't worked in the (former) USSR and in the event you want a more contemporary example of the philosophy you are promoting, consider Cuba and North Korea... Real bastions of freedom and quality of life.

Once again a masterful piece of misinterpretation. There is nothing in my post to indicate I would advocate a command economy. You really must start reading what is actually posted and not what you would like to see posted. As a matter of fact there is nothing in any of my posts in CC suggesting support for a centrally planned economy.

Great, you ought to get the cash together to buy-out the foreign companies.. You'll want to get more cash to invest in teh development of those resources while you're at it.

It's just that easy.

Actually I was not necessarily referring to the resource sector in that part of my post. I don't know if you have ever visited Canada, but if you did you could hardly fail to notice that many of Canada's retail outlets, especially in the area of fast food are US owned. I see little value in this sort of ownership for Canada.

So far as developing Canada's resources, Canada is not a developing country. There is more than enough cash available to develop its resources without US help.

And finally - most of your responses have been based on the fact that you were so intent on defending US economic imperialism that you ignored the salient point in my original post - and that is that the various levels of Canadian governments will do nothing to prevent the US domination of the Canadian economy from continuing. Most of your response seems to have been an effort to draw the thread off-topic.

The original thread asked "Should Canada nationalize its resource sector? To restate my original point in its simplest terms - Canada will do nothing to alleviate the current US domination of the Canadian economy.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
... And then we can gaze longingly upon the resource base that never was... Excellent idea.

Of course it wouldn't occur to a hewer of wood and fetcher of water to industrialize and supply the domestic markets. This is an old recurring problem Slim Chance, we share it with Sparta for christ sake, yes Sparta did exactly that at one time to avoid the internationalist gold merchants.


"Accepting the tyrant as front man of those alien agents of international money power, the trapezitae, in which category the Peisistratids certainly fell, then the meaning of the policies of the Ephorate becomes clear; with the limiting of Spartan dominion to Messenia and Laconia, was the establishment of an area from which Spartans could derive total economic freedom, sufficient to maintain themselves, and that which above all maintained their way of life and its source, their national monetary system."David Astle, The Babylonian Woe, chapter 12

chapter 12 of The Babylyonian Woe---Sparta,Pelanors and Women

Nationalize or die, those are the choices right now, we must capture our own domestic markets first before we think of expansion outside the borders. This is the new way to survive what's coming. We're only twenty years behind the best before date, so there is no time to loose.
 
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