Beware Harper
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Re: RE: Beware Harper
And I can appreciate that. I'm not going to get my ponytail in a knot over it because I know that my family could probably afford paying for our own healthcare, and with the union my wife belongs too, I think some of that cost would be offset by her benefit package. Also taxes would go down. I just don't agree that we should funnel money to the rich who can afford their own life. We should be helping poor people afford their healthcare premiums.
But that’s the difference between socialists and "others". Socialists want to control the system and all the dollars associated with it so they can buy votes and turn it into some question of morality. Others want to help poor people.
Of course it is. It's the best thing for the country.
Oh I can appreciate that....why just the other day some guy was telling me how great his old country China was....
MaxPower said:
And I can appreciate that. I'm not going to get my ponytail in a knot over it because I know that my family could probably afford paying for our own healthcare, and with the union my wife belongs too, I think some of that cost would be offset by her benefit package. Also taxes would go down. I just don't agree that we should funnel money to the rich who can afford their own life. We should be helping poor people afford their healthcare premiums.
But that’s the difference between socialists and "others". Socialists want to control the system and all the dollars associated with it so they can buy votes and turn it into some question of morality. Others want to help poor people.
MaxPower said:
Of course it is. It's the best thing for the country.
MaxPower said:
Oh I can appreciate that....why just the other day some guy was telling me how great his old country China was....
Re: RE: Beware Harper
No Thanks, I don't steal what isn't mine, I'm not a Liberal..............and I don't need any more votes. :lol: Thanks anyway.
MaxPower said:
No Thanks, I don't steal what isn't mine, I'm not a Liberal..............and I don't need any more votes. :lol: Thanks anyway.
MaxPower said:
Why is it, no one realizes, that none of the political parties want to emulate the U.S style of health care. The U.S healthcare system is very very different from any of the systems currently being proposed, and is in fact very different from the majority of healthcare systems around the world.
Your U.S "scare tactics" don't work, because it is nowhere near the type of system being proposed.
You need to conduct more reasearch.
Harper has no agenda hidden from those who have looked at his past associations and statements.
True he has tempered his image in the interests of gaining power, but that has been the Liberal Way ever since Martin's 1993 Red Book became a point-by-point description of what the Liberals would NOT do.
Harper has contempt for public health care, the "social safety net", restricting the influence of big money/lobbyists in influencing legislation, science that contradicts the interests of Big Oil, a united Canada, Canada that is independent of the US, the environment, reducing crime, diplomacy over force, minority rights and limits on corporate privilege.
In various speeches, his writings for the NCC, the odd editorial in American and Canadian newspapers, he has made all this clear. Anyone who questions these things is either ignorant or lying.
Paul Martin might give some lip-service to the the idea that he is opposed to Harper on these things, but his actions are pretty clear, keeping in mind that legislative grandstanding for political gain is the Liberals' stock-in-trade.
So, is Harper worse than Martin? No. He make take us down the same road a little faster, but at least the road won't be as slick with oily deceit.
For those who are concerned about SSM, aboriginal rights and tax cuts, you may find Harper's watch a little more eventful...
Oh well, at worst it'll be four years until the Libs offer us more-of the-same in red instead of blue.
True he has tempered his image in the interests of gaining power, but that has been the Liberal Way ever since Martin's 1993 Red Book became a point-by-point description of what the Liberals would NOT do.
Harper has contempt for public health care, the "social safety net", restricting the influence of big money/lobbyists in influencing legislation, science that contradicts the interests of Big Oil, a united Canada, Canada that is independent of the US, the environment, reducing crime, diplomacy over force, minority rights and limits on corporate privilege.
In various speeches, his writings for the NCC, the odd editorial in American and Canadian newspapers, he has made all this clear. Anyone who questions these things is either ignorant or lying.
Paul Martin might give some lip-service to the the idea that he is opposed to Harper on these things, but his actions are pretty clear, keeping in mind that legislative grandstanding for political gain is the Liberals' stock-in-trade.
So, is Harper worse than Martin? No. He make take us down the same road a little faster, but at least the road won't be as slick with oily deceit.
For those who are concerned about SSM, aboriginal rights and tax cuts, you may find Harper's watch a little more eventful...
Oh well, at worst it'll be four years until the Libs offer us more-of the-same in red instead of blue.
politics is the art of deception, citizen.
the masses are so well programmed to play their role in the game most never even have a single thought about the realities of our country, our political system, their reality.
Harper, in both his lies (the face of a centrist), and his truths (the pro-american, right-wing idealogue) singly represents so well what i find repugnant about canadiana.
the masses are so well programmed to play their role in the game most never even have a single thought about the realities of our country, our political system, their reality.
Harper, in both his lies (the face of a centrist), and his truths (the pro-american, right-wing idealogue) singly represents so well what i find repugnant about canadiana.
Caracal,
That speaks to the Human Condition, for people rarely think of things beyond their little perceptions of reality.
Politics is a human creation, and our binding it to social and economic controls has created this quagmire of politicians that seek to remain in control of these controls rather then progressively look to better society by either tearing down old systems and creating innovation.
That speaks to the Human Condition, for people rarely think of things beyond their little perceptions of reality.
Politics is a human creation, and our binding it to social and economic controls has created this quagmire of politicians that seek to remain in control of these controls rather then progressively look to better society by either tearing down old systems and creating innovation.
You're correct, but then certainty and the Easter Bunny hold the same value for me.
As Finance Minister and PM, Martin has offered more tax cuts than and previous governments, particularly benefitting the well-heeled as they always do.
Over the last decade or so, his government's policies have done more damage to health care and social programs than Klein or Mike Harris, for that matter.
His environmental record is worse than any previous Prime Minister's, particularly when viewed against his rhetoric.
His policies in Haiti are brutal and immoral and represent a cowardly capitulation to all that is offensive (pun intended) about US foreign policy.
Aside form the bone he threw to progressives in the form of SSM, which costs him nothing, what has he done for any of the values associated with "civil society"?
Nothing, nada, zip.
I agree with you but not in the way you think. I performed a small experiment with myself and a few friends. 8 of us in total voting for all 3 federalist parties.
My theory was that by asking everyday Canadians why they are voting a certain way, we would get a typical response.
Ask someone voting Conservative why they are voting for the CPC and "most" of the time they can recite platform policies such as child care, tax cuts, and the cleaning up of government. Obviously people that have done even the slightest bit of research.
Ask someone voting Liberal/NDP and the typical response would be that of a child. Harper is scary. I don't like his eyes. Nothing whatsover to do with logic and or policies.
What's worse, I even had an NDP and Liberal supporter tell me that Harper wants to privatize the entire health care system so that the poor people will die earlier in life.
I'm not making this up.
Private Health Care.
In Canada.
Dead poor people in the streets.
Canadian streets.
Vote Fiberal.
It is obvious to me that many people who support the Liberals are voting for them because of fear mongering and nothing to do with the Liberal platform. Is this what our country has become.
Even on this site with so much information being shared, we still have chicken littles claiming everything from the false to the absurd.
Wake up.
"Wake up."
???
I "woke up" a very long time ago.
You missed the entire point that the system itself is a tool to control the masses. It matters not so much which of the "parties" wins because they are merely the "face" to the machinery that controls the masses. The system itself is what is dysfunctional yet the robots are so well programmed to eat rhetoric and "do their duty" to "vote" they don't even see the big picture. So it does not matter if your friends sited a "scary harper", "a harper quoted as wanting to get rid of the Canadian Health Act", "A national day care program", "Support for Kyoto", etc, for no matter what they were quoting they were still being just pawns in the facade of "freedom".
???
I "woke up" a very long time ago.
You missed the entire point that the system itself is a tool to control the masses. It matters not so much which of the "parties" wins because they are merely the "face" to the machinery that controls the masses. The system itself is what is dysfunctional yet the robots are so well programmed to eat rhetoric and "do their duty" to "vote" they don't even see the big picture. So it does not matter if your friends sited a "scary harper", "a harper quoted as wanting to get rid of the Canadian Health Act", "A national day care program", "Support for Kyoto", etc, for no matter what they were quoting they were still being just pawns in the facade of "freedom".
Breakthrough2006 said:
Exactly.
And sometimes even worse.
I had a heated discussion with a friend at work, who confessed he liked Tory policies, but was voting Liberal because Harper is from Alberta, and that is scary.
After we've been ruled from Quebec for almost 37 years.
I managed, somehow, not to shoot him.
Colpy said:Breakthrough2006 said:
Exactly.
And sometimes even worse.
I had a heated discussion with a friend at work, who confessed he liked Tory policies, but was voting Liberal because Harper is from Alberta, and that is scary.
After we've been ruled from Quebec for almost 37 years.
I managed, somehow, not to shoot him.
That's too bad Colpy. Try not to be so restrained next time.
Re: RE: Beware Harper
There's some truth in what you say pasta. Maybe we disagree somewhat about how 'extreme' his beliefs are in this regard but I think enough comments and opinions are out there to support this.
But believing in something deep down does not necessarily translate into enacting those policies when in power. You underestimate the value of public opinion in moderating and extremist tendencies. It is a rare leader indeed who is willing to buck public opinion. Instead they govern according to the prevailing winds of public opinion, sometimes to the detriment of this country.
Do you really think Harper is going to get in and make any dramatic changes after spending years trying to overcome the 'scary' label??
I think not.
pastafarian said:
There's some truth in what you say pasta. Maybe we disagree somewhat about how 'extreme' his beliefs are in this regard but I think enough comments and opinions are out there to support this.
But believing in something deep down does not necessarily translate into enacting those policies when in power. You underestimate the value of public opinion in moderating and extremist tendencies. It is a rare leader indeed who is willing to buck public opinion. Instead they govern according to the prevailing winds of public opinion, sometimes to the detriment of this country.
Do you really think Harper is going to get in and make any dramatic changes after spending years trying to overcome the 'scary' label??
I think not.
Maybe, but I would contend that public opinion is greatly swayed by media, which for obvious structural reasons is more influenced by those with financial muscle than those without.
I'm not too hysterical about any of this, because I agree that while our views on how"extreme" Harper is, are surely different, we're probably fairly close in levels of cynicism to the Liberals' transparent scare-mongering on that score.
Back to the media thing, though.
Again, I think many who share my political leanings are often a little hysterical about how much influence the media has over peoples' specific positions on various questions like healthcare privatization, SSM etc., but we downplay the power the media has to determine which issues assume importance in public discourse.
For example, outside of (not even the whole) gay community , and a handful of religious nuts, how many canadians care about SSM outside the range of "mild distaste" to "support on general principles"?
And as concerns the health care issue, media coverage is essentially soundbites of either"privatisation is evil" or " privatisation is all that can save a dying system". Both of these statements obscure complexities and mislead. As do facile comparisons with European systems.
The effect of NAFTA Chapter 11 challenges by health insurance providers is never mentioned, for example, when this issue could determine whether or not we have a choice over the ultimate form health care delivery will take place.
But coming back to Harper and your contention that he can be reigned in by public opinion.
Public opinion polls in the US that are not framed in partisan political terms consistently show that Americans are far less reactionary than their government policies would suggest.
Yet, Bush, who was hailed as a "moderate" and "compassionate" conservative, a "uniter" not a "divider" has had the most dictatorial, compassionless, divisive and authoritarian presidency, perhaps ever, but at least since WW2. Mainstream media toadying has been largely responsible for the lack of public outcry and if not for the amazing ineptness of the Republicans in hiding their lies and corruption, I'd suggest that Bush might still have better than 60% approval rating.
Harper can't end our healthcare system in one fell swoop or get us further into Iraq, but he can lay the groundwork behind the scenes, by gutting the Canada Health Act, improving access to sectors of healthcare delivery where privatisation might increase the odds of a successful Chapter 11 challenge to the whole notion of a strictly public administrative framework, giving provinces control over levels of privatisation, cutting transfer payments etc. etc. Things, it should be noted that Martin has been doing in his weaselly way.
He can ease us into missile dreams via Norad and promise support for the War of Terror in Syria or Iran or wherever.
There are hundreds of incremental gestures he can make over the next four years which will help him to achieve his "scary" goals that can easily be spun in the media as "necessary" and that don't violate the letter of Canadian values as he's articulated them.
Anyway, we'll get a chance to see in the next four years. I'd be lying if i didn't say I'm curious to see how it plays out. And won't be sorry to see the ass end of the Liberals.