Belief ....not a reality .

Praxius

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Praxius


That's your believe .

Indeed.... just like it is your belief that belief is not a reality.... which is the contradiction. You stated your opinion, which is of course valid as any other opinion on anything, but what gives you the foundation of your opinion is a Belief, AKA: A Conclusion, be that final or still work in progress.
 

L Gilbert

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Belief is simply a driver. It's a driver among many drivers. Curiosity is a driver, love of money is a driver, love of a person or people is a driver, It really isn't that big of a deal. What the result of acting on belief is, that's important. I would venture to say that curiosity is a bigger driver. What makes us tick? What makes our world tick? What makes the universe tick? Perhaps belief is only a centerline which we follow that guides our curiosity and other drivers along the road. Perhaps it isn't even a driver.
Someone mentioned we do things because we are conditioned. Nuts! Does a newborn reach for a thumb he or she can just barely focus on because of conditioning? I don't think so. I think it has more to do with curiosity.
Perhaps you believe that you are conditioned into believing that you are conditioned into believing things? Perhaps you should break free of these conditionings and beliefs and just do what you want to do.
I sleep when I am tired, not when we are conditioned to sleep: the go to sleep at night and wake up 8 hours later in the morning thing. I usually sleep about 6 hours with a 15 or 20 minute nap somewhere in between the 6 hour stretches.
I eat when I am hungry, not at the 3 times a day thing.
If I see something new to me I go check it out. If I see an ant for the first time scuttling across the ground. It seems from a distance that it has many legs. Curiosity makes me get closer and look. Upon closer inspection it does indeed have many legs. When it stops I can quantify my observation by counting the legs. If people paid more attention to curiosity as a motive for things and less to what they think exists and what they think happens, I believe we'd all be a lot better off.
 

MHz

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Sorry, I guess I was dangerously close to being as tediously verbose as Mhz. I usually try to be fairly lucid and succinct. My apologies. :lol:
Were you driven to try and surpass me in verboseness? ROFLMAO
You eye for fine detail is somewhat lacking, Mhz is not the same as MHz. No big deal, just an observation that indicates a tiny bit of laziness in your general character.
When you say 'driven' is that a healthy sort of drive or the unhealthy one. Addiction would be an example of an unhealthy drive.

" I usually sleep about 6 hours with a 15 or 20 minute nap somewhere in between the 6 hour stretches. " Would that be similar to being 'asleep at the wheel'?

Is their some specific reason you left your usual sig off this post? You seem to be a fan of "Catch-22" type phrases. You do need to come up with your own though or your drive is simply to copy somebody else, a trend that usually ends up being rather inferior when compared to the original.
 

MHz

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An interesting book about ancient civilizations that existed before water levels climbed is: Underworld by Graham Hancock, published by Anchor Canada (Random House), ISBN 0-385-65935-0.

The author spent years traveling and exploring underwater ruins from around the world.

Does that book indicate there were great groups that could work in harmony to get things done?
Some of his videos on google or utube cover the building of some of the 7 wonders but it doesn't seem to explore further back than that. Like the sphinx showing water damage, if the rains stopped 10,000 years ago then the damage was done by that time. It must have been there for a long time for the weathering to happen, say another 5-10,000 years.
I watched a show some time ago that was an exploration to if there was ever a time that their might have been "giants in those days". One guy was was saying something like 'in conclusion these are myths and not realities'. If you noticed his body language when he was saying that, it would have been quite obvious he was saying things that he didn't actually believe were true statements. The kind of things that are apparent when a person who is not a seasoned liar tells a lie. (but at least he still had a job to go to)

Since that type of logic is more or less rejected, would anything be 'reburied' that pointed to odds and ends that pop up as oddities.
Suppression has been used against some in our fairly recent past (like the world being round) that did end up being just the opposite of what the norm was thought to be.
 
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Scott Free

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Does that book indicate there were great groups that could work in harmony to get things done?

He does, however, there isn't a lot of record left once a city has been underwater for a few thousand years. The book includes a map of what land would have existed and now exists. It is fair to speculate that civilizations may have existed on those now submerged masses. Cities today for example are typically built on sites that will, if current trends continue, probably be submerged in the near future. As an example he explores Indian folklore about a city that people say did once exist and after a dive he finds evidence to support the stories.

Some of his videos on google or utube cover the building of some of the 7 wonders but it doesn't seem to explore further back than that. Like the sphinx showing water damage, if the rains stopped 10,000 years ago then the damage was done by that time. It must have been there for a long time for the weathering to happen, say another 5-10,000 years.
I watched a show some time ago that was an exploration to if there was ever a time that their might have been "giants in those days". One guy was was saying something like 'in conclusion these are myths and not realities'. If you noticed his body language when he was saying that, it would have been quite obvious he was saying things that he didn't actually believe were true statements.

There is evidence of giants but it has mostly been destroyed because it didn't fit current scientific thinking. The Smithsonian for example has destroyed hundreds of skeletal remains of people 12 feet and taller because they concluded they must have been a hoax. That was the modern thinking too until new skeletal remains were recently found in Arizona of a group over 12 feet tall.

In England too, two skeletal remains of people over 30 feet tall were reported but destroyed. I have no idea if they were real or not, there is no evidence left. All we can hope is that if they were real that new evidence will emerge and, this time, go unmolested.

It is unfortunate when people try and make the world conform to their notions instead of conforming to the evidence.

The kind of things that are apparent when a person who is not a seasoned liar tells a lie. (but at least he still had a job to go to)

It can be easy to spot a lier but it can be difficult too. I don't think a person can be properly base-lined from a TV show.

Since that type of logic is more or less rejected, would anything be 'reburied' that pointed to odds and ends that pop up as oddities.

I don't see why not. There is an out of print book called America BC. I think you would find it fascinating. It's full of oddities.

Another good book (maybe even a great book) is Forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo and Richard L. Thompson, Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing, 2005, ISBN 0-89213-294-9

It chronicles odd evidence that the science of archeology refuses to look at. For example modern human foot prints along dinosaur foot prints. A modern human arm bone found in a coal seam some 200 million years old. You know, all the things that should rightly make a modern scientist cringe.

Once a theory has become widely accepted any evidence to the contrary can be quickly suppressed. A scientist that took such anomalies too seriously would probably find himself quickly without credibility and subsequently, a job. I can see how this is a good idea and a bad one. The majority of evidence will be the best indicator of truth, however, anomalies could indicate falsehoods or be themselves frauds. It's hard to know but if suppressed it becomes impossible to know.

Science has a culture of following the man with the longest beard (the antithesis of modern culture where youth is worshiped). It is difficult in that atmosphere to convince people of new ideas. It is proper that it should be difficult or science would lose its validity and end up being a speculative art, however, there is a point where standing on the backs of giants is one thing but deifying them is something altogether different, and a proper distinction of motive becomes a little more than hazy IMO.
 

Dexter Sinister

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An interesting book about ancient civilizations that existed before water levels climbed is: Underworld by Graham Hancock, published by Anchor Canada (Random House), ISBN 0-385-65935-0.

The author spent years traveling and exploring underwater ruins from around the world.

You might find these instructive:
http://csicop.org/si/2002-07/fingerprints.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/atlantisrebornagain.shtml

I've read one of Hancock's books, Fingerprints of the Gods. I think he's a fraud. Not deliberately, he just doesn't understand what he's doing and he's not qualified to do it.
 

Scott Free

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You might find these instructive:
http://csicop.org/si/2002-07/fingerprints.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/atlantisrebornagain.shtml

I've read one of Hancock's books, Fingerprints of the Gods. I think he's a fraud. Not deliberately, he just doesn't understand what he's doing and he's not qualified to do it.

I never thought of him as an expert but more as an enthusiast. There really isn't a lot of evidence for his claims in his book Underworld but it is interesting.

I should mention also that a rebuttal to Forbidden Archeology was published in which peers refuted the authors claims. I think to Cremo and Thompson's credit they published the rebuttals also and left them unmolested (though I just thumbed through the book).


Thanks for the heads up Dexter. I like entertaining alternative thinking only in that it's an opportunity to explore "all possible worlds" (Lewis) as I find that entertaining. I quite agree though, that it is best to consult experts on things of importance but I would hate to see that stymie the flow of ideas by qualified people or not.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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I like entertaining alternative thinking...
So do I, but it has to make sense in terms of what we already know. Unfortunately, it's often hard to tell. I don't know enough about archeology to spot Hancock's errors in that context, but I do know enough about physics and geology to recognize that his hypothesized pole shifts are utter foolishness, and that's enough for me to reject his whole thesis. If such a critical part of his argument is flatulent nonsense, odds are the rest of it is too.

You might find this site edifying as well.
 

MHz

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Scott said:
It can be easy to spot a lier but it can be difficult too. I don't think a person can be properly base-lined from a TV show.
I didn't do a follow-up but in 10-15 minutes before that statement certain mannerisms just weren't there. When I see those same facial changes in people I am talking directly my eyes instinctively narrow just a bit. It easier to spot in a 'young liar' than a seasoned veteran.

Scott said:
I never thought of him as an expert but more as an enthusiast. There really isn't a lot of evidence for his claims in his book Underworld but it is interesting.
Isn't his usual travel companion a photographer? Video and stills could be their specialty. If the one point that he has proposed is examined, water erosion on the walls that surrounds the sphinx. He didn't claim that, he had an 'expert' on rock weathering come over and look at it. How many experts are there are in Egypt on water erosion markers?
How open would the Director in charge of Egyptian Antiquities be to some theory that would put their whole dating system in doubt.

Some of his theories might not be right, but the expert on water erosion could be correct so the date should reflect back to when water erosion could have taken place. It might have also been caused by somebody building an enclosure around that wall that could hold some water, kind of like a big fountain, but in this case a thins sheet of water flowing over the wall and then back to the Nile (or back to become part of the waterfall again)

Scott said:
I quite agree though, that it is best to consult experts on things of importance
Like the experts that said the world was flat? LOL
That would only hold true if experts were never wrong, that hasn't been the case so far.
Since new information is possible the experts also have to be willing to re-evaluate their position. Pride could be a factor on the willingness to change your stance.
I doubt Egypt (or anybody) sent the 'resident experts' to view landforms in other parts of the world to 'observe first hand' weathering patterns in rock cause by flowing water over long periods of time. There are probably some good example of weathering by blowing sand that is different from the walls. (sideways not verticle)
 

MHz

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So do I, but it has to make sense in terms of what we already know. Unfortunately, it's often hard to tell. I don't know enough about archeology to spot Hancock's errors in that context, but I do know enough about physics and geology to recognize that his hypothesized pole shifts are utter foolishness, and that's enough for me to reject his whole thesis. If such a critical part of his argument is flatulent nonsense, odds are the rest of it is too.

You might find this site edifying as well.

Haven't some core samples show that pole shifts have occurred?
I was under the impression these took 100,000's of years between shifts, if not even longer.

That would seem to be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Throwing out the water weathering based on which way the compass points aren't very related (in that one cannot occur without the other).

from your link,
"Bad Archaeology is the brainchild of a couple of archaeologists who are fed up with the distorted view of the past that passes for knowledge in popular culture."
Not always, sometimes it is from keen observation.

Take the flooding that did occur from southern Alberta to the Oregon coast. When it was first proposed that there were massive run-offs, it was debunked by 'mainstream experts', their view being a slow gradual weathering away of the soil to create the 'little canyons'. They did everything they could to put that person into ridicule, when you can't attack the argument attack the person.
Today it is generally accepted that it was massive amounts of running water that carved those 'little canyons' in a very short time.

That site looks rather interesting, hope they have a feed-back link.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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Haven't some core samples show that pole shifts have occurred?
No. The magnetic poles drift around all the time, and there have been many reversals of the earth's magnetic field, that's perfectly clear from the geological record. Continents also drift around slowly, and sometimes break apart--that's happening in Africa's Great Rift Valley right now--and sometimes bump into each other, which is what pushed up the Himalayas, when India bumped into Asia, that too is clear from the record. But what Hancock and others mean by pole shifts is the entire lithosphere suddenly shifting on the mantle in a single catastrophic convulsion. There's no evidence that's ever happened, plenty of evidence that it hasn't, and no plausible source for the forces that could make it happen.
 

MHz

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"Problems with the early dating

Around 10,450 BCE, when Hancock proposes that the Great Sphinx (and, by implication, the Valley Temple of Kha‘efrē‘’s pyramid and the Osireion at Abydos were built) the Western Desert was still in its period of greatest aridity. Even in the Nile valley, rainfall was minimal. This would have made life difficult for humans. During what is known as the Late Palaeolithic Alluviation, beginning before 20,000 BP and lasting until about 10,500 BCE, the Nile brought less water than today. This was caused by two main factors: the world-wide dryness caused by the ‘locking up’ of water in the huge ice caps of the Pleistocene glaciation and because the White Nile did not drain into the Nile valley at this time, its northward path was blocked by sand dunes in the Sudd. At the same time, the slower river carried more sediment, which built up the floodplain until it was some 25-30 m higher than today. The river was sluggish and would have flowed in numerous braided channels. As the ice caps shrank after c 10,500 BC, an increase in rainfall at the headwaters of the Blue Nile in East Africa, combined with the White Nile breaking through the dunes in the Sudd, led to a brief period of exceptionally high floods, known to geologists as the ‘Wild Nile’. This increased flow eroded the sediments that had accumulated during the previous eight thousand years. Within a few centuries, the Nile had become a powerful stream, flowing in a single deeply incised channel, with a narrow floodplain that was prone to heavy flooding. Nevertheless, rainfall in the Nile valley itself remained low until about 9000 BCE, making settled life in the valley difficult."

Who determined what the weather was like during the 50,000 years that the ice was a factor? Humidity would have been low over the ice but the lower latitudes could have been quite warm. Does anybody know if the ice advanced so far and stayed there of if it started rededing as soon as it got it's largest size? Have the remains of any plants been found at that latitude that would give an estimate of what the temp was. Wre the wind patterns the same today as they were during the time of the ice?
Who dated when the sand got there? As I already mentioned NASA did a scan of the Saraha and found the remains of river beds, when did they flow, it would be possible to tell which way they flowed just by a quick look at a photo.
Does that mean the whole Saraha was 30m higher. That would be a lot of sand that went into the Med. Is there that much there, it still seems plenty deep.

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=1794

The ice would have affected the level of the oceans, not the humity at the worlds warmest spots If they were created by snow-fall then further south the moisture would have been rain. The fastest evaporation should have been at the equator, that doesn't mean some didn't also fall there

Can questions like that be asked without getting booed off the stage.


link
"
These unfavourable climatic conditions virtually preclude the use of the Nile valley by the remnants of Hancock’s ‘lost civilisation’; hunter gatherers would have found few plants or animal to exploit, while farmland would have devastated by frequent floods and the shifting of the numerous braided river channels. Population levels would have been small and communities necessarily mobile. Moreover, the sites of the Great Sphinx, the Valley Temple and the Osireion were covered by a considerable depth of alluvial deposits at this time; if they had been built in the eleventh millennium BCE, they would have been at the bottom of pits 25 to 30 m deep! This geological evidence makes archaeological questions irrelevant. It is difficult to see how society could have flourished in such an environment, especially one with a predilection for building permanent monuments."

Or if the ice-sheets were a fairly stable size for most of their time the weather might have been fairly predictable.
A link or reference to the article that explains the 'alluvial deposits' being there would have been a interesting read, as it stands we can only take it as a summation thought with no explanation given.

Deserts may have only come with the receding ice. Less wind from the north (how far they went south) could be enough to affect precipitation bands. Put cooler air over warm air (I know the warm air should be on top, with winds it doesn't always work that way), it does go that way when the cooler air rushes south along the ground and it pushes the warmer air up, that always results in moisture coming back down. Ocean currents might have also been quite different. Warm going just north (no surface currents going south. The cold currents would have been along the seabed.
 

Scott Free

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Look at my avatar. You realize, of course, this means you have to believe everything I tell you... :lol:

Pretty much :lol:

You've been at this skepticism stuff a lot longer than I have and your a scientists, so in reality I would be pretty foolish not to listen.
 

MHz

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No. The magnetic poles drift around all the time, and there have been many reversals of the earth's magnetic field, that's perfectly clear from the geological record. Continents also drift around slowly, and sometimes break apart--that's happening in Africa's Great Rift Valley right now--and sometimes bump into each other, which is what pushed up the Himalayas, when India bumped into Asia, that too is clear from the record. But what Hancock and others mean by pole shifts is the entire lithosphere suddenly shifting on the mantle in a single catastrophic convulsion. There's no evidence that's ever happened, plenty of evidence that it hasn't, and no plausible source for the forces that could make it happen.
See more information the better.
True the magnetic poles do shift slowly, an actual shift might happen quickly once some point of instability is reached. No magnetic poles no protection from solar winds. No protection no life at all.
If the theory of the moon colliding with earth before it formed into the current moon is true, then that might be a big enough event to cause what you described. Pangaea might have been there after such a collision, but it's movement is, like you say, slowly but steadily.
 

MHz

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Pretty much :lol:

You've been at this skepticism stuff a lot longer than I have and your a scientists, so in reality I would be pretty foolish not to listen.
Listening without curiosity (a question after the listening is done) is just , well, a form of insanity. Wouldn't you also have to listen to any rebuttals?
 

Scott Free

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So do I, but it has to make sense in terms of what we already know. Unfortunately, it's often hard to tell. I don't know enough about archeology to spot Hancock's errors in that context, but I do know enough about physics and geology to recognize that his hypothesized pole shifts are utter foolishness, and that's enough for me to reject his whole thesis. If such a critical part of his argument is flatulent nonsense, odds are the rest of it is too.

You might find this site edifying as well.

I really appreciated this, it made me lol:

"These boundaries are best explained by showing what archaeology is not. Someone who uses explanations that involve unknown civilisations, extraterrestrial contact, the inerrancy of religious texts or the operation of paranormal powers, belongs to a very different intellectual tradition from mainstream archaeology. The orthodoxy – itself a mass of contradictory, competing and often abstruse arguments – generally relegates these other investigators to a ‘fringe’ or ‘cult’ status, as a result their claims go unchallenged."

I'm not so far gone that I don't know UFOs, religious and supernatural powers have little to do with reality. If I run up against these I become extremely suspicious - actually I usually just toss it out (unless I have nothing else to read).

My idea of a good time is reading textbooks and when I encounter something that makes me suspicious I like to double check. For example The Secret left me unimpressed. I knew enough that their claim about how scientists could influence experiments was completely misconstruing the actual problem also that what they were really talking about was a twisted form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
 
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Scott Free

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Listening without curiosity (a question after the listening is done) is just , well, a form of insanity. Wouldn't you also have to listen to any rebuttals?

Only to a certain degree. If someone is an expert and is able to point out mistakes and I can verify them, then I see little point questioning much further. Life is short and experts are handy. This is also why peer review is so important. If a group of experts agree on something it makes their argument all the more compelling.

Yet I agree with you that an open mind is also very important.

I think there is a fine balance in these matters: between wish thinking and a grasp of reality. When we cling to what we hope is true despite the evidence we have tipped over but also, in order to explore, we need a healthy dose of wish thinking but it needs always to be verified. That IMO is the balance.
 
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MHz

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Only to a certain degree. If someone is an expert and is able to point out mistakes and I can verify them, then I see little point questioning much further. Life is short and experts are handy. This is also why peer review is so important. If a group of experts agree on something it makes their argument all the more compelling.
How would a person go about verifying what the wind and rainfall patterns were back then? Several sites indicate that there was little rain-fall at the height of the ice-age. They only allow for rain-fall to occur for a few thousand years. They also predict how many people the land could support based on that (in part).

Yet I agree with you that an open mind is also very important.
Does this line of thought 'hold any water'? LOL

Every year the earth does go through a mini ice-age, it's called winter. Since I am more familiar with North America I'll use it as an example. Before a winter even comes we go through summer (no ice-age). Wind and rain patterns can used as a base-line. The mid-west is similar in form to Europe and Africa, mostly land with no large open bodies of water.
The American desert is dry during the summer, most moisture falls north of a certain line. Keep going north and the season is too short to grow crops. There is always a band of green between the ice and the desert, when the snows come and moves south the green area does not get much smaller, it migrates to the south. What was desert in the summer now receives rain. If the snow never retreated what was desert would not return to being desert. Whatever weather pattern was there for the winter would continue as long as the snow stayed as far south as it got. Over time, and with a larger amount of annual rainfall, what used to be desert would become the same as what could have been only found further north before, greener even if the plants were a bit different. During the winter there are more winds that come from the north than there are during our summer.
As the green belt moves south with the advance of winter it is the desert that decreases in size, or it simple moves further south (until it hits the rain forest, which doesn't move much)
A short study I did on another topic shows the same thing for Israel, the rain decreases about mid March. It increases with the advance of winter in Europe.
Doesn't it stand to reason that an ice-sheet would act with a similar effect?
I'll try to find a map that shows the green belt moves with the seasons and it is only the deserts that decrease in size.

I think there is a fine balance in these matters: between wish thinking and a grasp of reality. When we cling to what we hope is true despite the evidence we have tipped over but also, in order to explore, we need a healthy dose of wish thinking but it needs always to be verified. That IMO is the balance.
Observation of current weather patterns has nothing to do with wishing, wishing is finding the info all on one site that is easy to find.
This map isn't what I would prefer but it does show something, Arizona gets more rain in the winter, so does northern Africa. A permanent 'winter' would have those weather patterns stay.

Another point that is made to support the Sahara being still a desert during the ice-age is that the moisture was locked up in the ice. I agree that over the ice there would be low humidity. How would that affect the humidity over what area there was that was ice-free? The air would hold just as much as it does today. The weather patterns would still have a green belt south of the ice, the green belt would take over any land that was desert when it moved south.

In the larger picture, if a greener Sahara can been shown then lack of food would could not be used as a factor in determining how large a population that area could support.