Back to the SCoC - Any bets- Ontario court orders woman to remove veil to testify
- Thread starter Goober
- Start date
I'd rather not.
But the right of confrontation is mostly about the right to cross-examine witnesses against you.
All this rubbish about "viewing the demeanour" of the witness is just as likely to lead to false conclusions as accurate ones. There are reams of evidence that ill-spoken or ugly witnesses tend to be disbelived far, far more often than well-spoken or good-looking ones.
There's a reason criminal defense lawyers always make sure their clients have a haircut, a shave (if male), and a nice, sharp, conservative suit for the trial.
With anything that covers your face, you should have to verify your identity (show your face) to the judge in chambers. You should be advised that in a society where covering ones face is not normal, remaining covered during testimony can hurt your credibility. And then you should make your choices.
Never should you have to choose between personal security, and participation in the judicial process.
Personal security?
So?
It's part of the whole due process thingy that separates us from the animals.
Or to a female officer, which neatly circumvents all of the "identity" problems and prohibitions on showing one's face.
The whole notion that we can have sophisticated chains of evidence, sworn affidavits, and suchlike legal process and somehow can't be sure a person is who we think she is without a courtroom full of people who've never seen her before seeing her now is simple-minded.
When you grow up being told that covering your face is modesty, being forced to uncover it is akin to telling me I have to take my shirt off in front of accusers. It's a violation of my personal security.
Let me qualify that I look forward to the day that cultural integration and third and fourth generation melding, get rid of the need for these outmoded, ridiculous forms of cover. I think it's a disservice to women to teach them that they need to cover up their whole being in order to be modest. But, that's what they've been taught, and you can't undo that by demanding they undress.
Being told you'll have to stand there and hear the charges read against you, in open court, even though they're the most despicable charges one could have levied against them, and they are completely false, akin to being forced to stand naked before them...
It's called due process.
I hear ya.
Key word- mostly- not always.
The points you make are valid but how valid are they. There is also a clear cut problem with eye witnesses to a crime. Do we turf them as well.
Within Islam their is a deep divide on this.
Islamic Research Foundation - Does Islam Make The Face Veil Obligatory For Muslim Women?
Does Islam Make The Face Veil Obligatory For Muslim Women?
Muslim scholars differ amongst themselves on the issue of the obligatory duty (or otherwise) of veiling of the face by Muslim women. In Islam, rules and regulations and the do's and don'ts are derived from the word of Allah, i.e. the Glorious Qur'an and the teachings of the Messenger of Allah, i.e. the authentic Ahadith.
-Haroon Abdullah - New Delhi
The Qur'an says:
"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination."
(Al-Qur'an 4:59
As mentioned in the verse quoted above, when people in authority, the rulers, leaders, imams and scholars differ amongst themselves, our Creator instructs us to look into the Qur'an and the authentic Ahadith for guidance. The legitimacy, relevance and accuracy of the reasons and evidence provided by these people should be evaluated in the light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. However, it should be borne in mind that infallibility belongs to Allah alone and a scholar, being a human, can make an error of judgement.
There is no clear-cut authentic hadith to the effect of making the face veil obligatory. Those scholars, who insist that covering the face is obligatory for Muslim women, interpret 'al-idnaa' in the verse of the jilbaab (Al-Qur'an: 33:59) to mean, "covering the face". This interpretation is erroneous because the basic meaning of the word in Arabic is "to come close", as the well-known scholar, ar-Raaghib al-Asbahaanee mentions in his authoritative dictionary 'al-Mufradaat'. Some people claim that jilbaab is "a garment which covers the face". This too is a misinterpretation as it is contrary to the interpretation of the leading scholars of past and present as well, who define jilbaab as a garment which women drape over their head scarves (khimaar
It will never happen. There are always those that differ- that is part of having Religious and cultural differences.
While the Burka is only worn by a minority it will always be worn by some.
Muslim Woman Barred From Jury For Refusing To Remove Face Veil
A Muslim woman was barred from serving on a jury yesterday because she refused to remove her veil.
In an extraordinary ruling, a judge said she could not sit on an attempted murder trial because her full face covering, known as the niqab, concealed her expressions.
The woman was about to take the oath in the case at Blackfriars Crown Court in London when the judge interrupted to ask if she was prepared to remove the garment which covered her whole face, apart from a narrow slit through which her eyes could be seen.
Judge Aidan Marron QC, said it was 'desirable' that her face was 'exposed' during the trial and asked her to remove the veil.
When she refused she was told to stand down and a white male member of the jury pool was sworn in in her place.
In the presence of the rest of the jury, Judge Marron said: 'I wonder whether I can address the lady who is veiled.
'Would you prefer not to remove your veil in this particular case?'
The woman, who was wearing western clothing including a fitted grey jacket, replied: 'Yes.'
Judge Marron added: 'I entirely understand that, but in this particular case it is desirable that your face is exposed, so I'm going to invite you to stand down. I hope you understand.'
The ruling, which is thought to be one of the first of its kind in Britain, has sparked outrage.
Egypt court upholds exam veil ban - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
A court in Egypt has ruled in favour of the government's decision to ban students from wearing the face veil (niqab) while taking university examinations.
But female students who had appealed the ban when it was originally imposed by the government last October have vowed to appeal the verdict.
The students said the ban on niqab infringed on their religious rights.
"We had never hoped to see such a verdict issued by our fair Egyptian judicial system. Our rights are being raped. What freedom would we have after this? Where is freedom in Egypt?," one student told Al Jazeera
Why not move to France then? Though, perhaps I should warn you--they speak French.
A chapeau is a hat.. A voiture is a car. A maison is a house. Seriously, it's like they gotta different word for everything there.