Atheism and the VT Massacre

[L Gilbert]

from the online dictionary

ag·nos·ticplay_w("A0145000")(

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n. 1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

adj. 1. Relating to or being an agnostic.
2. Doubtful or noncommittal: "Though I am agnostic on what terms to use, I have no doubt that human infants come with an enormous 'acquisitiveness' for discovering patterns" William H. Calvin.

 

[L Gilbert]

Well, I'm tired and belief isn't important enough to get me to stay up longer.

 

[karrie]

Gilbert:
I am totally in agreement with you. Anyone who believes in anything is doing just that, in the
act of 'believing", but those who don't enter into those beliefs, in my opinion aren't opposite, but
just not included, as they didn't become involved in the first place. There is too much importance
by the ones who believe, that their position is dominant, and you either join 'it' or you form a
new religion, called non believer. The believers did that, on their own, they constantly drag us
into their world, (or try to), it just doesn't work that way.

see, in trying to classify it as religion, I agree that it's a ploy of the religious to try to group you in with them. But, "belief", well.... I just don't get it. It's a cognitive term. It's thinking. It's not a religious term. Why does it so offend atheists to be told they believe there is no god?

 

[L Gilbert]

Have a good one, folks. g'nite
Hah!! Thought you could sneak that by me? Like I said, not having beliefs is not a type of belief.
G'nite.

 

[karrie]

from the online dictionary [/color][/i]

Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking of, getting at. To me, that's what an absence of belief would describe. No true opinion either way.

 

[karrie]

*shrugs* I guess I will just have to carry on forever confused on the issue.

 

[Kreskin]

What if atheists don't believe there is a God?

It all sounds like semantics. I don't believe the Earth is in the centre of the Sun, no matter how many people believe it is (hypothetical belief system). I'm not really believing anything, I just haven't seen an ounce of evidence to suggest I should be believing we live in the Sun.

 

[karrie]

What if atheists don't believe there is a God?

It all sounds like semantics. I don't believe the Earth is in the centre of the Sun, no matter how many people believe it is (hypothetical belief system). I'm not really believing anything, I just haven't seen an ounce of evidence to suggest I should be believing we live in the Sun.

Still confusing, as you would be believing the Earth was not in the centre of the sun.

 

[talloola]

I don't want to be included in the world of religion in any way. I am not an agnostic, and I am
not associated with any organization that 'practices the disbelief' of a god. I just don't include
any sort of belief system re: a god in my life. If someone were to ask me if I believed in a god,
I, of course would have to say no. So, in your opinion that groups me in with all of the practicing
atheists, who love to spout off about their non belief. I don't want to be part of their system either. But that definitely doesn't make me an agnostic, as I don't spend any time at all making sure that I stay in the middle, just in case they might find a god somewhere.

 

[Kreskin]

Still confusing, as you would be believing the Earth was not in the centre of the sun.

Yes, semantics. I don't believe crop circles are made by aliens from Saturn. I don't exactly dwell on it and become a card carrying believer of a non belief. I don't believe my daughter walks on her head or my dog eats semi-tractor trucks either. I am somehow categorized for disbelieving these issues?

 

[karrie]

I don't want to be included in the world of religion in any way. I am not an agnostic, and I am
not associated with any organization that 'practices the disbelief' of a god. I just don't include
any sort of belief system re: a god in my life. If someone were to ask me if I believed in a god,
I, of course would have to say no. So, in your opinion that groups me in with all of the practicing
atheists, who love to spout off about their non belief. I don't want to be part of their system either. But that definitely doesn't make me an agnostic, as I don't spend any time at all making sure that I stay in the middle, just in case they might find a god somewhere.

I guess perhaps because I try (yes, I try) to not lump people together like that, saying it's a belief doesn't make me think you're the same as Pangloss or Gilbert or Dex, or even the same as the atheist friends I have who share your way of looking at it. You believe something. So do I. But I know that my beliefs are like those of no one else on earth, and I'm assuming yours are unique to you as well. Beliefs aren't concrete things written down on paper or drawn on a wall. Beliefs are the ever changing cognitive functions of the people who hold them.

 

[karrie]

Yes, semantics. I don't believe crop circles are made by aliens from Saturn. I don't exactly dwell on it and become a card carrying believer of a non belief. I don't believe my daughter walks on her head or my dog eats semi-tractor trucks either. I am somehow categorized for disbelieving these issues?

categorized? A belief is an opinion on a subject. How does a belief in itself categorize you?

 

[Kreskin]

What I'm saying is I don't believe my dog eats semi-tractor trucks. However if someone then wishes to refer to me as a believer that my dog doesn't eat trucks they appear to be making the assumption that I put an ounce of thought into it. It would only come to mind if someone asked me, and I'd be rather surprised I had to give any thought at all.

 

[talloola]

I guess perhaps because I try (yes, I try) to not lump people together like that, saying it's a belief doesn't make me think you're the same as Pangloss or Gilbert or Dex, or even the same as the atheist friends I have who share your way of looking at it. You believe something. So do I. But I know that my beliefs are like those of no one else on earth, and I'm assuming yours are unique to you as well. Beliefs aren't concrete things written down on paper or drawn on a wall. Beliefs are the ever changing cognitive functions of the people who hold them.

But I am the same as them, my philosophy would be exactly the same, and I have, in the
past expressed those views on this board, but I tired of doing that, was bored with seeing it in print, just as I am, seeing the religious constantly pushing their views on me, so I stopped doing it, and stepped back. Enough is enough, I think everyone got my point, now I'm movin on.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Seems to be some confusion here. There is both a so-called 'strong atheist' and a 'weak atheist' position, and they're quite distinct. The strong atheist position is that there is no god, which is indeed a belief, and that's where you'll find the most obnoxious atheists. The weak atheist position is that there's insufficient evidence to justify belief, so belief is withheld. That's not the same as the agnostic position, which is that the issue is not decidable in principle. The weak atheist position would hold that it is, but the evidence has not been produced. Most atheists I know take the weak atheist position, the absence of belief. That's Richard Dawkins' position; the relevant chapter of his book The God Delusion is titled "Why there almost certainly is no god," not "Why there certainly is no god."

 

[karrie]

What I'm saying is I don't believe my dog eats semi-tractor trucks. However if someone then wishes to refer to me as a believer that my dog doesn't eat trucks they appear to be making the assumption that I put an ounce of thought into it. It would only come to mind if someone asked me, and I'd be rather surprised I had to give any thought at all.

The fact that Dex and Gilbert have both seemingly given serious thought as to the non-existence of a god, would seem to make your comparison an incorrect one.

 

[Kreskin]

The fact that Dex and Gilbert have both seemingly given serious thought as to the non-existence of a god, would seem to make your comparison an incorrect one.

Except the existance or not of God is someone elses agenda, not mine. I prefer to give it not much thought at all. The same with alien spacecraft or ghost stories. I chose not to believe made up stuff. I don't dwell on disproving anything that has never been proven to exist. I guess someone could call me aaliencropcircleist if that is important to them but I'm not about to waste a lot of energy getting my status card.

 

[tamarin]

So, Dexter, weak atheists and agnostics could share the same bed and think on most days they might be twins.

 

[karrie]

Okay, I get what you're saying... for the most part. Except to generalize that strong belief is where the obnoxious lie. I've seen plenty of people, on both sides of the belief spectrum if you will, who are able to concisely and respectfully discuss their positions, without having to forfeit strength of conviction in those views.

Seems to be some confusion here. There is both a so-called 'strong atheist' and a 'weak atheist' position, and they're quite distinct. The strong atheist position is that there is no god, which is indeed a belief, and that's where you'll find the most obnoxious atheists. The weak atheist position is that there's insufficient evidence to justify belief, so belief is withheld. That's not the same as the agnostic position, which is that the issue is not decidable in principle. The weak atheist position would hold that it is, but the evidence has not been produced. Most atheists I know take the weak atheist position, the absence of belief. That's Richard Dawkins' position; the relevant chapter of his book The God Delusion is titled "Why there almost certainly is no god," not "Why there certainly is no god."

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So, Dexter, weak atheists and agnostics could share the same bed and think on most days they might be twins.

Not if they thought deeply about it. Frankly I find both the strong atheist and the agnostic position to be logically indefensible.