Article out of Afghanistan

[#juan]

Mogz

I'm glad we have a good part of our military in Afghanistan. Not because I agree with the oil wars, or George Bush, but because we've let our military sink to such a level that only a lot of money and a lot of bloody experience will bring it back to an acceptable level of competence.

The Liberals aren't totally to blame for what has been wrong with our military. Lyin Brian didn't do a damn thing for our military in nine years. What Brian did do, was pile up debt and completely screw the PCs to the point where they could only elect two MPs. This let the Liberals get elected no matter what they did. With virtually no opposition, the liberals could do, or not do, whatever they wanted.

I flew jet fighters for over three years in the fifties and early sixties with the RCAF when we had a reasonable military for the size of our country and the length of our borders. Hell, our NATO contribution with 1 Air Division had over three hundred front line jet fighters by itself.

I'm confident that we will prove ourselves yet again. We always have.

 

[Curiosity]

Is a really dumb question allowed? Good I'll ask it...

Does the size of the military and its quality of equipment, etc. depend on the changes in political parties, or is it dependent upon the military commitment of any government previous or current...and is an ongoing thing? In Canada I mean.

 

[Mogz]

It depends on who's running the nation. Our Forces have been beating in to a pulp over years of neglect and underfunding at the hands of the Liberals. Post Cold War the Canadian Forces saw a drop in funding (as did the U.S. and Britian), however during the Liberal Government, they took it to the extreme. The Liberals, in an attempt to chop the Forces, offered members huge buy-out packages to get them to leave the Forces. In short the Government offered X number of dollars to a soldier so he'd leave the military. They did this to thousands of soldiers and our military shrank almost over night. This is just one example of how the Liberals hammered our Forces, proof they care nothing about them...unless they want to gloat about them to the World that is :roll:

 

[Curiosity]

Mogz

Thank you - the Clinton administration did the same in the U.S. - closing bases, non hiring policies, and when 9/11 happened, the military was severely undercut. They had to pull National Guard from universities (which is why some were serving)....to do full time battle action - so they had to be trained in a more intense system, rather than the weekend warrior things.

The military was caught with its pantaloons down!

Wouldn't it be smart for a set number (even for defense only) of military bases and equipment and materiel, regardless of who is currently in power - to at least be trained as career people - whether they are ever utilized in a military capacity in a foreign country or not? Then if recruitment is necessary in the event of some kind of attack, the regular military will be available immediately as well as able to train new people.

Maybe it already is this way - I don't know but there has to be a common sense number of people and adjunct equipment and facilities at the ready for security purposes. Canada is such a huge country.

But then from what I read here, the people are resistant to a military other than a peacekeeping force - which is like sending
Red Riding Hood to Grandma Wolf's house.

 

[Mogz]

Juan:

Sorry I must have missed your post. With regard to the Liberals and their wanton destruction of the CF, yes I know they didn't do it ALL, but they did do the brunt of the chopping. The Mulroney Government didn't exactly boost the Forces, however they did makes plans to strengthen what we had. For example they put in place the order to purchase new choppers to replace the Sea Kings (the Liberals squashed that order at a cost of 5 Million in cancellation fees). They also put in to place a design for new destroyers to replace our Tribal Class (the Liberals squashed this plan too), a Class that is still serving in the Navy today, ships built in the 60's. Lastly the Mulroney Government reorganized 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade in Germany, thus making it more combat effective. This unit (our front line Brigade) was given all the best equipment and was made a fully mobile force. When the Liberals got in, they chopped back the committment to 4 Brigade and eventually closed Lahr and thus disbanded 4 CMBG. While the Conservatives never really "improved" the CF, they at least made an attempt to maintain it, something the Liberals didn't.

With regard to your military service, i'm impressed you served with 1 Canadian Air Division. What aircraft did you fly? I've always been interested in jet aircraft, however for some odd reason I never went down the pilot road.

 

[zoofer]

Re: RE: Article out of Afghanistan

....... (the Liberals squashed that order at a cost of 5 Million in cancellation fees). .

A typo? It was $500 million.

Probably CF-100's. All weather fighters.

 

[#juan]

Wednesday's Child wrote:

Is a really dumb question allowed? Good I'll ask it...

Does the size of the military and its quality of equipment, etc. depend on the changes in political parties, or is it dependent upon the military commitment of any government previous or current...and is an ongoing thing? In Canada I mean.

Yes. The size and the quality of the military is under the control of the party in power. THe party in power has to have the will to take care of the military. In Canada's case, we had some comittments to peace keeping duties here and there but no wars to fight. I assume that the end of the "cold war" it was thought to be the end of the need for a standing military and the caretakers just let things go. I am embarrassed when I see what is left of our forces. It is getting better but we have a long way to go. I hope Harper follows through with all of his promises to rebuild the military.

 

[Curiosity]

Juan

The military commitment is expensive yes, but it trains some young people who don't seem to have any goals when they are finished with regular schooling and the training they receive in the military will stand them for the rest of their life.

Some may choose to join for higher education benefits - or become career military - but it saves money in the long run for an option for many young people - especially when there is no war - just peace time operations and rehab of some countries.

I hope the government can see bringing it back to necessaries for at least a good defense posture. In our crazy world it wouldn't hurt.

 

[#juan]

W.C.

People are going to throw things at me, but I would go along with conscription for our young people. Even a two year stint would teach them a lot of basic things that they wouldn't learn at the pool hall or on the street.(Do they still have pool halls?)

 

[#juan]

Juan:

Sorry I must have missed your post. With regard to the Liberals and their wanton destruction of the CF, yes I know they didn't do it ALL, but they did do the brunt of the chopping. The Mulroney Government didn't exactly boost the Forces, however they did makes plans to strengthen what we had. For example they put in place the order to purchase new choppers to replace the Sea Kings (the Liberals squashed that order at a cost of 5 Million in cancellation fees). They also put in to place a design for new destroyers to replace our Tribal Class (the Liberals squashed this plan too), a Class that is still serving in the Navy today, ships built in the 60's. Lastly the Mulroney Government reorganized 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade in Germany, thus making it more combat effective. This unit (our front line Brigade) was given all the best equipment and was made a fully mobile force. When the Liberals got in, they chopped back the committment to 4 Brigade and eventually closed Lahr and thus disbanded 4 CMBG. While the Conservatives never really "improved" the CF, they at least made an attempt to maintain it, something the Liberals didn't.

With regard to your military service, i'm impressed you served with 1 Canadian Air Division. What aircraft did you fly? I've always been interested in jet aircraft, however for some odd reason I never went down the pilot road.

Mogz

That chopper order was a huge disaster. To pay that kind of money for no equipment is a crime.

The Liberals always promised to do something for our military but the never did.

The other thing was the disbanding of the Airborne. A lot was made of the Somalia problems but it wasn't neccesary to lose the Airborne. I always thought that whole mess was to save money.

I flew Canadair F-86s. They were a great fighter in their day. Their day, unfortunately, wasn't very long. To start, Canada flew F-86s alongside of the yanks for the first year. It was neat in a way, because our F-86s had the more powerful Orenda engines. They weren't a lot faster but they climbed a lot faster. In a mock dogfight we could often wax them. but by the second or third year, the U.S. were flying F-100s and F-101 Voodoos. In the shamozzle over the Arrow, after I left the airforce, we got the F-104s and F-101s just as they became obsolete.

 

[the caracal kid]

W.C.

People are going to throw things at me, but I would go along with conscription for our young people. Even a two year stint would teach them a lot of basic things that they wouldn't learn at the pool hall or on the street.(Do they still have pool halls?)

conscription for those in "pool halls", or manditory service for all?

neither is a wise decision unless it were part of a "new military complex" (which i will discuss with you if you are interested).

However, the true essence is that a culture based around constructs of paranoia will always find ways to justify its paranoia, and thus escalate in foolhardy fashion, rather than resolve with reason.

 

[Curiosity]

Juan

One avenue to explore but these days I doubt conscription would work and it would not encourage those who saw the value in
receiving an education in either a trade (electronics or avionics for example), or depending upon time served, a higher education.

The military isn't for everyone, therefore I think conscription would cause more trouble from those who would do anything to be removed and thus disrupt the smooth flow of learning possibilities and positive motivation. It would also rob those who were eager to sign on and learn for their future, a favorable atmosphere of learning.

Juan I also thought of another method of training young people while they are serving their country but are not physically capable of military training - there could be internships available in manufacturing, assembly plants, government offices, any place which would save the government funds in hiring but would instead recruit some of the young people who are undecided regarding their future. I think Denmark used to use young men in the East Asiatic Company as a comparable job to military work, but of a less physical nature.

Caracal

Paranoia - isn't that a bit dramatic? Would we do without local law enforcement as well? I hope you take the time to explain to Juan your intent - it sounds interesting.

 

[Mogz]

RE: Article out of Afghan

A typo? It was $500 million.

Probably CF-100's. All weather fighters.

Yup, thanks zoofer, bigass typo on my part

The other thing was the disbanding of the Airborne. A lot was made of the Somalia problems but it wasn't neccesary to lose the Airborne. I always thought that whole mess was to save money.

Not money Juan. To save themselves a political nightmare for the attempted coverups.

flew Canadair F-86s. They were a great fighter in their day. Their day, unfortunately, wasn't very long. To start, Canada flew F-86s alongside of the yanks for the first year. It was neat in a way, because our F-86s had the more powerful Orenda engines. They weren't a lot faster but they climbed a lot faster. In a mock dogfight we could often wax them. but by the second or third year, the U.S. were flying F-100s and F-101 Voodoos. In the shamozzle over the Arrow, after I left the airforce, we got the F-104s and F-101s just as they became obsolete.

The saber, awesome, I always thought that aircraft was a neat looking one. I remember being a kid at CFB Cold Lake and listening to the "Widow Makers" (CF-104 Starfighters for those who don't know) spin up on the tarmac. Ever try having a conversation with someone while a widow maker is spinning up? Impossible

I will say I do support conscription in essence. It would teach the younger members of society respect for the military as an institution and might make maintaining our Forces easier in the long run. However we live in a democracy and sadly conscription just won't fly. We've never had a conscription in this nation (we came close in World War I) and for that I think we should be proud. We were the only major contributing nation in World War II to field an entirely volunteer military and that's a tradition we should maintain.

 

[Johnny Utah]

He sounds very proud of the Mission in Afghanistan, the media should listen to Soldiers like him more who offer a real view of what's going on the ground not some arm chair analyst who sits in the comfort of their office ripping apart the goal of the mission.

 

[#juan]

Mogz wrote:

I remember being a kid at CFB Cold Lake and listening to the "Widow Makers" (CF-104 Starfighters for those who don't know) spin up on the tarmac. Ever try having a conversation with someone while a widow maker is spinning up? Impossible

The F-104 was a unique airplane. It had two seven foot wings that were sharp enough to cut yourself on. In order to get the landing speed down to something civilized, the designers incorporated a feature called "boundary layer control". Air from the engine compressor was ducted over the wing. They still came over the fence at a hundred and forty knots. An instructor on F-104s was asked how far an F-104 could glide without power from forty thousand feet. He answered, "just under eight miles". (or about 40,000 feet)

 

[Sassylassie]

Johnny Utah, well said. Unfortunatley our government will listen to the cries of Chanting University students with their anti-war retoric and ignor what is being said by those who have actually served this country.

 

[Lineman]

Re: RE: Article out of Afghan

and Lineman.

Canadians always brag about ourselves? Your responses are more "American" in their tone than I think you realise.

A bit pompous too don't you think? Your stereotyping Americans is ignorant and very rude too.

Sorry if you took this the wrong way "zoofer". The reference was to how some complain about "loud, obnoxious, and arrogant Americans" while they themselves act (type?) no different. I apologize to all Americans for comparing you to dar......... Better leave that one alone too....

 

[Johnny Utah]

Johnny Utah, well said. Unfortunatley our government will listen to the cries of Chanting University students with their anti-war retoric and ignor what is being said by those who have actually served this country.

Thanks, well Steven Harper is PM now so there is a chance he will not bow to those groups. Maybe what the Canadian Military needs is someone like Michael Yon (was attached to a Military Unit in Iraq and reported on line of their Missions showing the human side.) to report the Human side of the Canadian Military Missions in Afghanistan.

Here is his website:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

 

[FiveParadox]

If we have learned anything so far from the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P., the Prime Minister of Canada, it's that he doesn't have any particular interest in listening to the citizens of Canada, post-election.

 

[Mogz]

The F-104 was a unique airplane. It had two seven foot wings that were sharp enough to cut yourself on. In order to get the landing speed down to something civilized, the designers incorporated a feature called "boundary layer control". Air from the engine compressor was ducted over the wing. They still came over the fence at a hundred and forty knots. An instructor on F-104s was asked how far an F-104 could glide without power from forty thousand feet. He answered, "just under eight miles". (or about 40,000 feet)

Crazy I never knew that about the 104. Didn't that bad boy have a drag chute too? Or was that the Voodoo?

Thanks, well Steven Harper is PM now so there is a chance he will not bow to those groups. Maybe what the Canadian Military needs is someone like Michael Yon (was attached to a Military Unit in Iraq and reported on line of their Missions showing the human side.) to report the Human side of the Canadian Military Missions in Afghanistan.

Good point, however I think it's starting to happen. Lisa Laflemme (sp?) is currently attached with Alpha Company while they're out sneakin' and peakin' in the mountains for the next month. I saw her report last night on the national. Maybe this openess will let people fully understand what's going on over there.

If we have learned anything so far from the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, P.C., M.P., the Prime Minister of Canada, it's that he doesn't have any particular interest in listening to the citizens of Canada, post-election.

The only difference between Harper and every other Prime Minister we've ever had is that he actually comes out and SAYS he doesn't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut what the people think. Martin was just the same, expect we never came out and publically said "go fist yourself Canada".