Any ideas for an economic structuralist economic party?

Machjo

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I'd like to introduce another idea to Canadian economic politics, and would just be curious to read your thoughts on it. It's what I'll refer to here as political economic structuralism.

In Canada, most of us are familiar with the capitalist-socialist spectrum. First, I'll analyse them here and then point out the flaw I see in such a limited political dichotomy. To make the ideas more concrete, I'll use language policy as an example, as that'sone I'm most familiar with. But please understand that the ideas can apply to any other part of the economic system.

Capitalism:

The basic idea is to let the free markets reign. We know, however, that there can be some glitches to the system, such as monopolization, oligopoly, and usury whereby money makes money, while poverty risks grinding a person to a halt.

To take an example in language policy. Since English is already dominant in a number of industries, in spite of its being difficult to learn, requiring a large investment of time and money with still no guarantee of success, people still spend large amounts of money to try to learn it. Native speakers of English, however, can make money from it by teaching the language, writing and publishing textbooks, dictionaries, and grammars, etc. And the more the language spreads, the more monopolized it becomes by one particular ethnic group which reaps the rewards, namely the English-speaking countries. As a concrete example, according to Francois Grin in 2005, the EU is subsidizing the UK economy by from 17 to 18 thousand million euros a year in second-language teaching alone, even though the UK is already the wealthiest nation in the EU!

Without any kind of government intervention to restructure the free market economy, this injustice can only be left to continue indefinitely. It eventually becomes a stagnant system of perpetual extremes of wealth and poverty.

Socialism:

Socialism simply rejects capitalism as corrupt anyway, and so doesn't even bother to try to restructure the free market system. Instead, it aims at simply alleviating the symptoms of the illness by raising taxes on the rich and giving it to the poor. Since the structure itself is defective, however, the money just ends up flowing back to the rich anyway, resulting in the system being forever dependent on the state to raise the taxes on the rich to give the money back to the poor, since the socialist state is not particularly interested in restructuring the system, the root cause of the problem, itself. As a result, we become forever dependent on the welfare state.

To take an example from within Canada with regards to language. The Quebec government has Bill 101 to constantly guard against the spread of the English language to protect French language jobs for those who don't know English. Since language is naturally monopolistic, however, unless we restructure the system itself, Quebec will forever be dependent on Bill 101. Same with the indigenous languages, they will forever be dependent on government support since again the structure itself is not fixed. And so it likewise is doomed to fall into a stagnant and inefficient system of permanent government intervention to try to counteract the faults of the free market.

Structuralism:

Structuralism involves the restructuring of the economic system so as to make it permanently self-sustainable. It is different from capitalism in that, at least in the initial stages of the restructuring process, government or some other organizational not-for-personal-profit involvement is required. It is also different from socialism in that, once the restructuring process is complete, government invovlement is no longer required. In this respect, unlike capitalism and socialism, both of which lead to stagnant systems, structuralism is foever dinamic. To take an example with language again:

According to Francois Grin of the University of Geneva, a switch to an easy-to-learn international auxiliary language such as Esperanto coud eventually save the EU, including the UK and Ireland, 25 thousand million euros a year. Under such a system, governments would need a plan to first adopt, create or revise an easy language for the purpose, and then through legislation, promote it in some way to counteract the monopolisic effects of English. Once that language replaces English as the dominant language in the economic structure, government intervention is no longer as needed since that language woudl have replaced English as the new dominant language of the system, thus being able to hold its own in the economic system. At that point, government could retreat fro it assured that it shall remain well entrenched in the new system. The ease of learning of the new language would also give people time to preserve their own languages too, so that there woudl no longer be any more need for government to protect minority languages. At that point, the government could then move on to deal with other structural problems in the economy.

Conclusion:

If we could move away from the oversimplistice dichotomy of capitalism and socialism, and instead focus on economic structuralism, it could be possible over time to achieve the goals of socialism but more efficiently through a moderately capitalistic system, whereby capitalism and socialism, rather than seeing one another as opponents, could view one another as friends rather.

What other ideas would you have on how to restructure the free market system so as to achieve socialist ends of economic justice but more efficiently through the private sector itself?
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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My biggest gripe is with huge corporations like the oil industries.
The have us by the balls and make more profit in time of crysis.
I think their should be a cap on profit.
It's insane what they are making.
I takes out money from our pockets to their own benefit . Which is what ? I don't know.
 

Said1

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Apr 18, 2005
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The 'structures' are in place to combine socialism and capitalism, as is. Structures are a reflection of agency, so essentially, people are happy with the outcome ie: economic structures. We could lower taxes, however. But that wouldn't promote socialism. :(

If anything, the center-periphery of technology where we are presently positioned is a shame. Instead of sharing the wealth more, better access to post secondary education and R&D might be money better spent. I guess that's still sharing the wealth.

I don't follow with your language bit. I think you just through that in, whenever possible. LOL.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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My biggest gripe is with huge corporations like the oil industries.
The have us by the balls and make more profit in time of crysis.
I think their should be a cap on profit.
It's insane what they are making.
I takes out money from our pockets to their own benefit . Which is what ? I don't know.

So any ideas on how to change that? If we appied the division above, we could look at it this way:

Capitalism:

Let them make the money.

Socialism:

Tax them and give the money to the poor.

Structrualism:

A bit more difficult to answer since in some ways structuralism would be simiar to technocracy. We would need to have an indepth understanding of why they're making so much money in the first place and then restructure the system so that less money flows to them so naturally. One possiblity might be to promote workers' co-ops? Just an idea. As an initial stage, perhaps just give workers voting privileges in the board of directors? I don't know, but that might be one way to deal with the problem without requiring endless government involvement. But someone else might have a better idea?
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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The 'structures' are in place to combine socialism and capitalism, as is. Structures are a reflection of agency, so essentially, people are happy with the outcome ie: economic structures. We could lower taxes, however. But that wouldn't promote socialism. :(

If anything, the center-periphery of technology where we are presently positioned is a shame. Instead of sharing the wealth more, better access to post secondary education and R&D might be money better spent. I guess that's still sharing the wealth.

I don't follow with your language bit. I think you just through that in, whenever possible. LOL.

Then to take another example:

Instead of having rich countries give money to poor countries which poor countries then just spend on military hardware from rich countries, with the money going back to the rich, what if we shared an international force. That way, the rich countries could provide most of the funding, but citizens of poor countries can still join it, which would also be putting money into poor countries.

As a result, this would put an end to the cycle of money just going from the rich to the poor and back again. If we don't restructure the system, socialism is useless since money just flows right back to the rich. The idea is not necessarily to give more money to the poor, but to restructure the system so that money stops going from the poor to the rich. It wold just seem to be more efficient that way by dealing with the root of the problem rather than just the symptoms.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Machjo
interesting proposals

Well, going back to the example of corporations, as long as they have all the power, you can tax them all you want and give the money to the poor, but it will just flow right back to them anyway if you don't deal with why they got so rich in the first place. Essentially, it's about restructuring the root cause of problems rather than just touch up work as politicians seem to thrive in.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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I also don't fully grasp the question too.

Well, essentially it's this: is it better to just let the rich get richer and the poor poorer as capitalism does; to just tax the hel out of the rich , give it to the poor, and watch it flow back to the rich to repeat the process again, as socialism does; or to restructure the system so that money no longer flows from the poor to the rich in the firs place, as structuralism would do.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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Well, going back to the example of corporations, as long as they have all the power, you can tax them all you want and give the money to the poor, but it will just flow right back to them anyway if you don't deal with why they got so rich in the first place. Essentially, it's about restructuring the root cause of problems rather than just touch up work as politicians seem to thrive in.
no I don't fully agree. It should be in a way where you don't create a poor situation in the first place, and the government giving back to the poor is too welfare-ish of a system. Hope you get what i mean.
 

El Barto

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Feb 11, 2007
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Well, essentially it's this: is it better to just let the rich get richer and the poor poorer as capitalism does; to just tax the hel out of the rich , give it to the poor, and watch it flow back to the rich to repeat the process again, as socialism does; or to restructure the system so that money no longer flows from the poor to the rich in the firs place, as structuralism would do.
ahh ok my last post then agrees with what you just said here
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Machjo
interesting proposals

I was a socialist for many years, but I finally came to the sad conclusion that Socialism will only work where there is no greed and no one trying to shirk pulling his/her weight and finally concluded it ain't gonna happen. Of course we have the same greed and dog fornication with capitalism, but at least a person who wants to get ahead can, but it would be nice if it could be through ambition not greed.
 

El Barto

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Feb 11, 2007
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I was a socialist for many years, but I finally came to the sad conclusion that Socialism will only work where there is no greed and no one trying to shirk pulling his/her weight and finally concluded it ain't gonna happen. Of course we have the same greed and dog fornication with capitalism, but at least a person who wants to get ahead can, but it would be nice if it could be through ambition not greed.
Agreed
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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OK, going back to the language example:

Capitalism:

The whole world is spending all its money to learn English while English-speaking countreis reap the benefits. According to Francois Grin, a specialist in language economics at the University of Geneva, the EU gives the UK from 17 to 18 thousand million euros a year through the UK's English-language industry alone, making it a flow of money from poorer countries to wealther.

Socialism:

We don't actually restructure the language order itself, but we do tax the rich and give money to schools to teach threatened languages, as is the case with Canada's indigenous languages. The UK also gives some money to poorer EU countries. But in the end, power still flows back to English anyway since the system itself isn't fixed.

Structuralism:

You replace English with an easier language as the new monopolistic language, but an easier language that will cost people les money and so would put an end to the threat of English, and also to money flowign from poor to rich countries in the first place.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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OK, going back to the language example:

Capitalism:

The whole world is spending all its money to learn English while English-speaking countreis reap the benefits. According to Francois Grin, a specialist in language economics at the University of Geneva, the EU gives the UK from 17 to 18 thousand million euros a year through the UK's English-language industry alone, making it a flow of money from poorer countries to wealther.

Socialism:

We don't actually restructure the language order itself, but we do tax the rich and give money to schools to teach threatened languages, as is the case with Canada's indigenous languages. The UK also gives some money to poorer EU countries. But in the end, power still flows back to English anyway since the system itself isn't fixed.

Structuralism:

You replace English with an easier language as the new monopolistic language, but an easier language that will cost people les money and so would put an end to the threat of English, and also to money flowign from poor to rich countries in the first place.
you are about to pull out the puppets for me on this one hahaha
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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I was a socialist for many years, but I finally came to the sad conclusion that Socialism will only work where there is no greed and no one trying to shirk pulling his/her weight and finally concluded it ain't gonna happen. Of course we have the same greed and dog fornication with capitalism, but at least a person who wants to get ahead can, but it would be nice if it could be through ambition not greed.

The problem with capitalism though is that there is no level playing field. For example, compare the English Canadian, the French Canadian, and the Inuit. The English Canadian can find work in many parts of the world and most of Canada. The French Canadian similar to the English Canadian, but more limited. The Inuit? He'll have to study some more just to be equal. The the social structure itself would have to be changed in order for the capitalistic system to work. In a sense, we could say that structuralism woudl be an attempt to restructure the capitalist system itself into a socialist image, thus a kind of marriage of the two. No more welfare state, but rather a restructuring of the economy so that all are on an equal footing in the capitalist system itself.
 

JLM

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OK, going back to the language example:

Capitalism:

The whole world is spending all its money to learn English while English-speaking countreis reap the benefits. According to Francois Grin, a specialist in language economics at the University of Geneva, the EU gives the UK from 17 to 18 thousand million euros a year through the UK's English-language industry alone, making it a flow of money from poorer countries to wealther.

Socialism:

We don't actually restructure the language order itself, but we do tax the rich and give money to schools to teach threatened languages, as is the case with Canada's indigenous languages. The UK also gives some money to poorer EU countries. But in the end, power still flows back to English anyway since the system itself isn't fixed.

Structuralism:

You replace English with an easier language as the new monopolistic language, but an easier language that will cost people les money and so would put an end to the threat of English, and also to money flowign from poor to rich countries in the first place.


Oooooooooh this is getting deep (beyond my room temperature I.Q) Are you thinking of a language like Esperanto? Are we talking replacing all printed matter with new printed matter? Are we thinking just "recycling" the old printed matter? I'm afraid of getting the lid off a big can of fat worms.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Oooooooooh this is getting deep (beyond my room temperature I.Q) Are you thinking of a language like Esperanto? Are we talking replacing all printed matter with new printed matter? Are we thinking just "recycling" the old printed matter? I'm afraid of getting the lid off a big can of fat worms.

Actually, it wouldn'tbe too difficult. Right now, only about a maximum of 15% of Canadians learn their second official language successfully. In fact, in Nunavut, more than 8% of the population speaks neither English nor French, even though they have studied them in school. And in Quebec, a maximum of 45% of the population is functional in English, and that's being generous.

If we simpply allowed schools to introduce Esperanto or a similar language as a second-language alternative, since it's from five to ten times easier to learn than either French or English, most would successfully learn it at no extra cost to the taxpayer. They just would be learning it instead of French. Just a switch. However, because it's easier, the rate of success would be much higher. Eventually, more people would speak that language, thus reducing the need for interpreters and translaters. And since it would put all languages on an equal footing, it would not threaten other languages, thus allowing us to scrap Bill 101 without needing to fear for the French language. It would allow us to scrap official Bilignualism once we all know a common second language (it's estimated at 16 billion dollars a year). And then, it would threaten native languages less too since it would put all on a more equal second-language footing. It would save much money in translatin without increasing education costs. No tax increase would be needed.

As for older documents, we only translate what we need to translate.

Such a common language could also help to keep Canada united too.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Then to take another example:

Instead of having rich countries give money to poor countries which poor countries then just spend on military hardware from rich countries, with the money going back to the rich, what if we shared an international force. That way, the rich countries could provide most of the funding, but citizens of poor countries can still join it, which would also be putting money into poor countries.

As a result, this would put an end to the cycle of money just going from the rich to the poor and back again. If we don't restructure the system, socialism is useless since money just flows right back to the rich. The idea is not necessarily to give more money to the poor, but to restructure the system so that money stops going from the poor to the rich. It wold just seem to be more efficient that way by dealing with the root of the problem rather than just the symptoms.

This is a good discussion. I'll add a bit more.
1/ the rich pay for nothing including taxes and if they do they aren't the rich, just the pretenders
2/ the number of wealthy depends directly on the number of poor, we want and need niether, and the assets exist to accomplish practical material equality
3/ distribution has never in all of recorded history been so unequal and that is a direct result of unregulated capital and it's sick and twisted little offspring the free market
4/an international force is exactly the proposal of the NWO
5/ the rich countries cannot provide any funding that they do not steal first from the poor countries, the reason for the needed aid in the first place.
6/ whatever system of government is in place it's social efficiency depends on participation and law, capitalism excludes the poor from both, you're insistance that socialism is useless is baseless.

What do the rich provide society that society cannot provide itself? If you inquire into that question objectively you'll discover that the wealthy contribute absolutely nothing, that my friend is thee perk that they grind up the blood and bones to keep. Humanity has struggled with the question of obscene wealth for a long long time, the writing has been on the wall for eons, the problem has one solution only, without that purge they will circumvent any restructuring and regulation you errect as they have always done.
Don't look to the rich to flock to your tent, they'll see you for the revolutionary that you are. Go ahead, suggest to the wealthy that they might give up a portion of thier wealth for the poor, use the phone, an unlisted number would be safe, maybe. Perhaps you haven't heard them whineing and moaning enmass when market regulation is mentioned. It's that poor to rich flow of money that keeps them rich Machjo, they ain't ever going to give it up voluntarily. The language idea isn't new either and it's gone nowhere for the same reasons.The rich certainly don't want the poor comparing notes, the babble suits them fine, the tower of B story explains the value. If we can't communicate effectively we can't build a scaffold up to thier perches and they remain beyond our reach and can continue to crap on us from on high for all remaining time.:-(