Another Alberta Message

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Another Alberta Messa

Separation is always messy ITN. If Alberta were to go on its own, the same arguments would apply to Alberta as they do to Quebec, i.e. can't use passport, can't send MPs to Ottawa, etc. But I do not believe that either Alberta or Quebec would give up their rights to their natural resources. There are questions about federal assets, but those would be resolved through negotiations. If it were to come to that. Hopefully.

Thanks for your insights, Toro. This would not be reinventing the wheel. Many countries in Europe have recently split, reformed, etc. and no military action has been taken.

Negotiations would be key, and would take some time, of that there is no doubt. Is it possible? Yes. Is it feasible? Well, Alberta and Ontario basically fund this country, so it seems to me that both could make it feasible. Is there a potential? Truthfully, five years ago I would have said no. Now? There is more of a potential, due to many of the reasons in the original article I posted to start this thread. There is a real feeling in Alberta that the rest of Canada has gone a different direction than we have, and that there is no real benefit from belonging to the country. What are the reasons to stay? Military? Please. Immigration? There are currently hundreds of thousands of immigrants in this country who are "lost". Trade? Alberta has made a switch to a more north/south type of trade which has taken away the necessity of relying on eastern Canada for trade routes. Economic? Alberta is debt free, no sales tax, lowest personal and corporate tax rates. Canada? Not so much.

If in fact this came to a serious discussion about assets, and who owns what, it may be interesting. For example, the Heritage Trust Fund has lent millions to other provinces over the years. If Canada wanted to be hardcore, then these loans would potentially be called, with repayment in full being required. A forensic accounting over the last 50 - 60 years could be asked for, to determine what Alberta has put into Canada vs what we have received. Lastly, let us not forget that every cent of pension, tax and EI premiums, plus every cent of current transfer payments would stop flowing to Canada. That alone is a significant amount of money, and if this happened, would Ontario and BC be prepared to fund the entire country without this money? I think not.

It is a fascinating discussion, which may get more and more fascinating in the future.

Long live the Republic, and Long Live Alberta :wink:

 

[I think not]

I have another dumb question, you can blame Sam adams for that, what makes anyone think Alberta can survive on its own?
Alberta would need money for say...embassies, military, UN representation, other international organizations etc...not to mention I would imagine there would be a little bit of resentment from the neighboring provinces.

I think this call for separation is from a small minority to fulfill political agendas, seems to be the case in Quebec also.

 

[bluealberta]

I have another dumb question, you can blame Sam adams for that, what makes anyone think Alberta can survive on its own?
Alberta would need money for say...embassies, military, UN representation, other international organizations etc...not to mention I would imagine there would be a little bit of resentment from the neighboring provinces.

I think this call for separation is from a small minority to fulfill political agendas, seems to be the case in Quebec also.

Fair questions. Does every country have an embassy? Alberta already has an office in Washington, does that count? Where else would they need one? Would any country say no?

Regarding the military, after negotiating to obtain Cold Lake, why not allow the US access to Cold Lake in exchange for military protection. Being landlocked, Alberta would not need a Navy or Coast Guard.

About the UN, what have the European countries who have split apart done? This is a genuine question, I don't know.

Where would the resentment come from and why? In my opinion, BC, Alberta and Sask could make a good unit, especially considering all thre provinces provide transfer payments to Canada. That aside, though, I am reasonably sure that should this ever come to pass, which I doubt would happen in the near future anyway, and given our close affinity to the US, negotiations would take place to deal with many of these and other issues.

No one has ever suggested this would be easy and that one day everyone in Alberta would wake up and be independent. However, given the economic base Alberta has built, and given the close relationship Alberta has with the US, for the most part, and given the resources THAT ALBERTA OWNS AND IS IN CONTROL OF, Alberta would seem to have the better opportunity at this than any other province, with the exception of Ontario.

 

[Toro]

You have to understand ITN that there is a great deal of regionalism in Canada, moreso than in the US. Great distances and a historically small population has fed a sense of isolation in the west. On top of that, there's a frustration with Ottawa that goes back to the Trudeau years, whose tenure essentially wiped out the Liberals in the west to this day. The National Energy Policy, which originated under Trudeau and attempted to cap the price of oil the east paid for oil at the expense of the west, in particular Alberta, caused deep, deep resentment in the west, and in particular Alberta. It was the genesis for the rise of the Reform Party and for Alberta separatism. You don't have that issue today, and the resentment was worse in the 1970s than now, because, after all, there is no NEP to screw Alberta anymore.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I think this call for separation is from a small minority to fulfill political agendas, seems to be the case in Quebec also.

I'm in total agreement with you there ITN... 8O

 

[bluealberta]

You have to understand ITN that there is a great deal of regionalism in Canada, moreso than in the US. Great distances and a historically small population has fed a sense of isolation in the west. On top of that, there's a frustration with Ottawa that goes back to the Trudeau years, whose tenure essentially wiped out the Liberals in the west to this day. The National Energy Policy, which originated under Trudeau and attempted to cap the price of oil the east paid for oil at the expense of the west, in particular Alberta, caused deep, deep resentment in the west, and in particular Alberta. It was the genesis for the rise of the Reform Party and for Alberta separatism. You don't have that issue today, and the resentment was worse in the 1970s than now, because, after all, there is no NEP to screw Alberta anymore.

...yet. There are continual rumblings of a similar type of economy killing program this time under the guise of Kyoto. The issue of the NEP, despite the protestations of the extreme left, is still front and center in Alberta, and will not ever be forgotten. I suspec that now that Sask has started to develop its oil and gas resources, you would find support for Albertas position there as well.

Your point about regionalization is important. This is a huge country with a small population, but with the majority concentrated in two eastern provinces. As a result, and in order to ensure they stay in power, Liberals cater to these two provinces. The conservatives on the other hand try to have policies for the benefit of Canada, not just the eastern region, which coupled with the Liberal courting of Eastern Canada has resulted in the Liberal party being in power for the majority of the past several decades. As a result, western alienation is real in Alberta especially, and is increasing as the economic clout of Alberta increases, and is continually ignored by eastern Canada and the political powers that be. I have long thought that this country is too big and too sparsely populated to be governed as a whole, and have thought that Eastern Canada with its increased population should be offset by a Western Canada with its increased economic clout, with both regions having equal say in how the country is run. However, this will never happen, so there will have to be changes if the west, and particular Alberta, are to be taken seriously. It is worth noting that we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than we do in Canada, and we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than Canada does.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

It is worth noting that we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than we do in Canada, and we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than Canada does.

Well I have my theories about that blue, but I wouldn't want to have to ban myself for posting them...

 

[I think not]

It is worth noting that we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than we do in Canada, and we in Alberta get a better audience in the US than Canada does.

Well I have my theories about that blue, but I wouldn't want to have to ban myself for posting them...

That would be interesting

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Another Alberta Messa

Hey, you know who loves you Blue.

Hey, thanks.

My main point about this issue is that it is getting stronger and stronger, and with more so-called elite talking about it. When the power brokers get together and agree, who knows what could happen. To those that think we should leave if we don't like it, in many ways, we have already left Canada, but have extremely strong and patriotic attachments to Alberta. We want Alberta to succeed, and not be sucked into some vortex which destroys it. For that reason, we will continue to push for what we think is best for Alberta, whether that be in or out of Canada. Ideally, in Canada, but if Canada continues to reject Alberta, then that makes the decision even easier, doesn't it?

What happens when the oil runs out? More then half of your GDP is from Oil.

 

[Extrafire]

But then why would the rest of Canada have a claim on oil on Alberta territory? Because right now, if everything is owned by all of Canada regardless of the province it is located in, then Alberta is a part owner. So if they still had to share the oil if they seperated, then they would still retain their ownership of resources in other provinces.

Let's see if I can explain this so that you can grasp it...

Alberta has claim to it's natural resources because it is a province of Canada. If Alberta were to choose to give up that status, and as soon as they had signed the Articles of Secession, at that moment, they would no longer be a province of Canada, and would lose all rights they enjoyed as a province. That would include all oil, timber, water, and the like. Private property, such as cattle ranches would become contested land, as the federal government would have as much claim on the land as the private owner, as the title to that land is a provincial jurisdiction, and would be dissolved upon secession, for if there is no more province of Alberta, who have they registered that land with?

I'm thinking that most of what was once the province of Alberta would become Crown land.

You aren't thinking clearly at all. The instant Alberta (or Quebec) signed articles of secession they would cease to be a part of Canada, and Canada would have absolutely no claim on any person, property or resources at all. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing, no more than they have any claim over the resources of any other country in the world.

 

[Extrafire]

That said, the federal government should be forthright with underlining the legalities involved in any attempt at secession.

The clarity act lays out the parameters for separation. Once separated that’s it. Split, divorced, gone. No way would Canada have any say over a foreign country’s resources.

I also suspect that moments after a "Oui" vote came out, the Canadian military would mobilize to secure those assets that Canada wished to dispute.

The Canadian military is too small to handle such a mission. Moreover, a large part of the forces are from Quebec, most of the officers also (have to be bilingual), half the air force is in Quebec, along with the servicing of the f-18’s and munitions dumps. If Canada were to take such action, it would galvanize support within Quebec for independence and volunteers would be lining up, whereas the ROC wouldn’t have much passion for it. Not to mention there would have to be a long term occupation in hostile territory. How long do you think our “peaceful” mandarins in Ottawa would be willing to keep that up? No, more likely they would just cry and suck up and beg them to come back.

Now if it was Alberta, they would most likely be willing to take military action, but again, in the long term, it would fail.

 

[ol' dawg]

Well, as an Albertan since birth – over 60 years ago – I guess I should make some kind of comment here.

First of all, the author – Link Byfield – is so ridiculously right wing he had one of his testicles surgically removed … guess which one?

Not all Albertans are suckers for this separatism doctrine. Some of us actually think for ourselves rather than listen to this rabid rhetoric. Yes, there is still more than a lingering of hatred for Trudeau and a long-term distrust of all things east; but when Quebec had their last referendum many bumper stickers said, “My Canada Includes Quebec”, I think this strongly indicates that “My Canada Includes Alberta” too.

I’m sure some Canadians from other parts of the country must wonder if Albertans are inbred because “we” tend not to see the big picture. The truth is, most Albertans see themselves as Canadians first, and we do see that we have a part to play in Canada.

It’s just the noisy boors that regularly get up on the soapboxes and complain about how much better off we’d be separated from the rest of Canada. Then they suddenly think it would be nice to take along BC so we’d have someplace nice to visit, and Saskatchewan so we’d have bread to eat.

And don’t worry about oil and gas running out, there are enough separatist blowhards to provide wind power.

 

[zenfisher]

If Alberta did decide to seperate... wouldn't they only be allowed to seperate with the lands they entered confederation with? If I remember right that would take a considerable chunk out of the Northern part of the province. Wouldn't the reserves have the option to stay in Canada in the southern section? Its a messy divorce and Alberta might just find that they would leave Canada without all the resources they assune they have today.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I’m sure some Canadians from other parts of the country must wonder if Albertans are inbred because “we” tend not to see the big picture. The truth is, most Albertans see themselves as Canadians first, and we do see that we have a part to play in Canada.

Oh I realize that well enough ol' dawg, I just can't bring myself to listen to the separtists' ranting without calling them treasonous bastards is all...

I do the same thing with the Quebecois... :wink:

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Another Alberta Messa

What happens when the oil runs out? More then half of your GDP is from Oil.

That's a good question, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. A better question is what would happen if and when oil comes crashing back down to $20 a barrell.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Another Alberta Messa

Alberta would last about ten minutes on its own. There are a lot of expenses to running a country that aren't involved in running a province. The act of separation alone would throw them into an economic tailspin.

The natives would separate from Alberta, taking their resources with them. They aren't going to deal with the separtists though.

Any thought of taking Saskatchewan and BC with Alberta is absolutely nonsensical. Neither province would go.

I'd also like to point out that any article with the name Byfield attached to it was written by a Canada-hating racist.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Another Alberta Messa

Hey, you know who loves you Blue.

Hey, thanks.

My main point about this issue is that it is getting stronger and stronger, and with more so-called elite talking about it. When the power brokers get together and agree, who knows what could happen. To those that think we should leave if we don't like it, in many ways, we have already left Canada, but have extremely strong and patriotic attachments to Alberta. We want Alberta to succeed, and not be sucked into some vortex which destroys it. For that reason, we will continue to push for what we think is best for Alberta, whether that be in or out of Canada. Ideally, in Canada, but if Canada continues to reject Alberta, then that makes the decision even easier, doesn't it?

What happens when the oil runs out? More then half of your GDP is from Oil.

Actually, the last stats I saw showed that only a third of our income was oil and gas generated, the rest was from other industries. Keep in mind that the tarsands also are a relatively untapped source of energy, with the last estimates indicating at least 200 years of production from them. The reason they have not been tapped before is due to the lower cost of oil not making it beneficial.

The other thing to consider is the development of alternate energy sources by the companies in the oil business. Developing alternate sources as the oil does start to run out down the road is the logical next step for energy (not exclusively oil) companies. It is to there self interest to do so. This will only happen if they are not shackled by government regulations and taxes, allowing them to put their profits into R & D as they do now. That is one of the main arguments in Alberta regarding the transfer payments. Many would rather use that money to develop alternate sources of energy and more efficient ways of using oil and gas instead of sending the payments to Ottawa to be, what some would consider to be, wasted on things like Adscam and the gun registry, to name two. That is one of the reasons the talk of Alberta separatism is getting much more serious talk by the power brokers instead of the boys on coffee row every morning. Moving this talk from the coffee shops to the boardrooms is a significant step.

 

[bluealberta]

The point of this thread was to indicate that there are serious people involved in this discussion. Of course Byfield is right wing, but the article he is talking about was written by a U of A professor, hardly a bastion of conservative support in Alberta. Again, when this discussion moves from the coffee shop to boardrooms of major companies, law firms, and accounting firms, it is not "way out there on the edge" any more.

Will it happen? Probably not, and I prefer it not to, quite frankly. But I also prefer some sort of change in our political system where the west, not just Alberta, actually has some say in how this country is run, as opposed to always bowing to the wishes and dictates of central canada.

And dawg, the hatred of Trudeau is far from lingering. I suspect you are a liberal, or travel in liberal circles, but Trudeau and the NEP will never be forgetten. All you have to do is talk to anyone in the oil business or out in the patch.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Another Alberta Messa

Byfield isn't a serious person, Blue. Everything he writes is tainted with his extreme hatred for Canada and his intolerance of anybody even slightly different than him.

Anything he uses to support his views becomes infected by the Byfield disease.

 

[manda]

It
's a shame we won't be able to import any of your beef..Mad Cow,you know

All the more for us, besides, why would Canada want to deprive itself of the best beef in the world? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Or tastebuds. What do you think you're eating now?

PEI beef thanks, grown raised butchered and processed right here at home. Veddy tasty