And some people say all Muslims are intolerant...

[Scott Free]

It began as a sect of Islam just as the Christian Faith began as a sect of Judaism. And just like the Christian Faith, it's now become an independent religion that requires procelytism of its adherents but prohibits aggressive procelitism, which would suggest that any world domination from this Faith would need to be voluntary on the part of the peoples of the world.

Read up on it bub. In order to be in the ruling class you need to be a Bahia in good standing (they call it administrative rights). They don't care if you don't belong they just won't let you participate.

It's like communism; if you belong to the party you can vote; if you don't belong then you cannot vote.

Now just for the sake of argument, even if the Baha'is were a sect, that still wouldn't change the fact that they have a right to freedom from persecution.

I never said they deserved to be persecuted. Don't put words in my mouth.

And even if Muhammad had killed those Jews unjustly, it still wouldn't change the fact that not all Muslims are fanatics as some Media like to portray.

If the founder killed Jews unjustly (which he did - read up on it) then it is their leader and founder that was a fanatic and therefore the religion is one of fanatical belief (since the founder believed fanatically). Religious people try and emulate their religions founder. Therefore, though not fanatic now, they will become so with little prompting. This is and always will be the greatest danger the virus of religion poses to the world. Not just Islam but all religion.

 

[Scott Free]

''Some info for you on the Baha’i faith ''

Local Bahais tried to recruit me to their religion. I had a debate with three of their teachers (one of whom is a distinguished college professor) and if you don't mind the personal boast, I whipped their butts in public.

Good for you!

Bahai's are keenly aware that people of capacity eschew their faith. They don't know why (lmao) but they are aware of it. They actually had a drive to bring in more capable people (their words not mine) but it was dismal failure. Their leaders raised this issue as a concern and said it would hinder their growth if "people of capacity" continued to escape them.

I thought the whole thing was quite hysterical myself. I figured they needed pictures and maybe a cardboard cut out so they could identify these "capable people." That idea wasn't rescieved very well.

They are a fairly bright group, generally well educated since they put great value on that, but definately lack the critical skills to see through the BS of their founder. Any that do posses such skills naturally leave and thereby, I presume, become capable. lol.

 

[Johnnny]

As with alot of religions there is that 10% frinnge, fundamentalist, radicals whether it be Christian, Muslim or Aminism who have a deranged concept of what is right and wrong

exactly

 

[Machjo]

The following book discusses that:

The Rise and Fall of the Pahlavi ... - Google Book Search


While I did not read the book in full, I did read articles about that matter in those days. It belies the myth that certain Bahais are pacifists.

From the book:

"Bahais are not allowed to assume political posts without prior permission of their top leader in Aka, a Bahai holy site in Israel. They are required to confine teir activities to trade and agriculture."
According to their very scriptures (I've read some Baha'i scriptures too.), they are simply prohibited fromaccepting partisan political posts, and no authority can overturn that. And as for confining their activities to trade and agriculture, I have no idea where this comes from. Their very sacred texts laud all sciences, arts, trades and professions that are beneficial to mankind. So this simply shows his ignorance of the facts of the matter.
'“So, why have you accepted a political post?”, Once I asked Sani.
“Leader permits us to accept political posts in exceptional cases”, he replied.'
If this is true, then that Baha'i had no idea what he was talking about.
"Bahais believe that Iran is the “Promised Land” for Bahais and therefore assuming political posts in Iran was not prohibited."
I've known many Baha'is, including Persian Baha'is, and have discussed various topics with them, and never have I ever heard of Iran as the "promissed land". In fact, the emphasis has always been on mankind being one, the Baha'i Faith being a world religion, and Iran being merely the birthplace of the faith. If there is any geographical centre, that would be 'Akka, in Palestine, not Iran. And it's been like this even long befor ethe collapse of the Shah. Clearly this man has no idea what he's talking about. Either that, or the Baha'is he met were quite unusual to say the least.
"All the Bahais I have met do not have a feeling of being Iranians. It was clear to me that they were spies."
There's also a possible misunderstanding here. Many Baha'is place emphasis on being members of one human race. This would not preclude a sentiment of patriotism though. I'm just pointing out that there could be a misunderstanding here. He's not very precise.
" The Shah not only show any sensitivity towards the growing power of Bahais in Iran but also he explicitely disclosed that he was happy to see them in important posts because they did not conspire against him.The powerful Bahais did everything to improve their financial position and take the upper hand in handling the country’s economic affairs. I did not know any poor Bahai during this period. Many districts in Tehran were under Bahai’s virtual control..."
This reveals considerable bias on the author's part:
1. It's natural for a national leader to favour those who are not conspiring against him over those who are. Common sense. If anything, this is an unintentional compliment to the Baha'is and contradicts the claims made above. Freudian slip?
2. As for Baha'is trying to improve their financial lot, that is vague. Don't we all? That could consist in studying hard, getting a good education, working hard, being honest and trustworthy in business practices, etc.
"During the reign of the last Pahlavi monarch, Bahais launched an extensive campaign propagating Bahaism in Iran. They used girls as means of luring men to convert to Bahaism. They also prescribed marriages between Bahais and Muslims. Iran had the biggest Bahai population in the world after the United States. Bahais who are mostly living in Chicago, U.S. are a powerful community. During the height of Bahais power in Iran, Bahaism was among the religions mentioned in employment application forms in government departments but it was dropped from the forms after their holy site was demolished in Tehran. Since then, they were introducing themselves as Muslims!"

Now this is extremely suspicious. From my observations, though Baha'is are socially progressive, they tend to be personally conservative. So why would they be prostituting their daughters of all people to gain converts? In fact, though they actively teach their Faith, I'd known of one case of a Baha'i parent who discouraged his teenaged child from pretending to be a Baha'i to stay with his Baha'i friends. So while they're procelyte, they are by no means aggressively so, with some exceptions who are generally frowned upon by the rest, and would certainly not defend sacrificing their standards or their daughters to gain converts. As for marriage, they're free to marry outside their Faith. And that's a problem? And haivng a large Baha'i population is a problem too? What about freedom of religion? And as for denying their Faith under any circumstances, though it does happen, that's highly frowned upon too in that Faith. So any Baha'i who would have done this would be embarrased in front of other Baha'is.
Alot of bias is expressed in that last paragraph. And considering all the other errors above, it really puts the author's scholarship to question.

 

[Machjo]

The Bahia "teachings" are almost all plagiarisms.

Could you give an example? I've found plenty in each religion that was quite unique to itself, and the Baha'i texts are no exception. Just to take but one example:

The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world's Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. ...The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.... That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

(Bahá'u'lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh," p. 24

Find anyhing remotely equivalent in any other religious text other than as distant future prophecy?

 

[CanadianLove]

It only takes one politician to kiss your baby then you vote for the party again.

 

[Tyr]

It only takes one politician to kiss your baby then you vote for the party again.

either that or you "baby" catches hoof and mouth disease :roll:

 

[Tyr]

As with alot of religions there is that 10% fringe, fundamentalist, radicals whether it be Christian, Muslim or Aminism who have a deranged concept of what is right and wrong

the fringe element justs seems to be proportionally higher for Christians and Muslims. Probably closer to 20%

 

[Scott Free]

Could you give an example?

Sure, I'll give you two to start: his "new world order" is a gross perversion of Godwin's teachings of anarchism. I say gross because he claims authority by god and seeks to turn it into a theocracy. The other is that he claims "men and women are equal but different" yet he doesn't credit Socrates who said it first. Not only that he makes the statement as though it were his and makes it one of his main principles!

I've found plenty in each religion that was quite unique to itself, and the Baha'i texts are no exception. Just to take but one example:

The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world's Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. ...The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.... That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

(Bahá'u'lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh," p. 24

This is Godwin except Godwin wanted kingships to end and the assemblies to be the people without social class. Your Butthead friend turned it into an elitist trip with him or his grandson as leader by virtue of being "from god."

Luckily Shogi Effendi was educated enough to realize his relative was a maniac and so left no will, despite being ordered to, and thereby didn't appoint a new Guardian (a.k.a. pope/king of the world).

Shogi Effendi' may have single handedly saved us from the tyranny of yet another damn doomsday cult. He's the real hero in this twisted little story.

Find anyhing remotely equivalent in any other religious text other than as distant future prophecy?

He didn't just rip off religious texts, he also ripped off political writings too.

I might point out too that Baha'ullah threw half his writings in the river. These are writings that were supposedly dictated to him by god! And he just tossed them in the river.... yeah right! It was crap, he knew it, and tossed it. His claim was that people weren't ready for it... hmmm....sure :roll:

 

[gopher]

''he explicitely disclosed that he was happy to see them in important posts because they did not conspire against him.''

You are aware of the fact that he over threw a democratically elected government and that he killed anyone who dared dissent against him just like Saddam. If Bahais were progressives, they would have promoted democracy, not fascism.

 

[Machjo]

''he explicitely disclosed that he was happy to see them in important posts because they did not conspire against him.''

You are aware of the fact that he over threw a democratically elected government and that he killed anyone who dared dissent against him just like Saddam. If Bahais were progressives, they would have promoted democracy, not fascism.

There's a difference between promotion and non-involvement. And these 'important posts' are not clearly defined either. Ministry of Education? What?

 

[gopher]

''What? ''

As I wrote above, their involvement with SAWAK -- the fascist shah's bodyguards.

 

[Machjo]

When were they ever involved with SAWAK. Their only involvement with SAWAK would be on the receiving end of SAWAK's spying on them.

 

[Machjo]

By the way, how did this thread end up being about the Baha'is. My intention in th eOP was simply to point out that contrary to public opinion, not all Muslims are hatemongers, and that some will stick their heads out for others of different religions with no thought for their own benefit.

 

[gopher]

You obviously do not know the issues dealing with the shah and his fascism.

 

[gopher]

''The Bahia Faith is a sect of Islam and seeks to impose a world theocracy. They actually seek world domination.''

They are not a branch of Islam. But interestingly, they claim their Bahauallah is the returned Messiah. But when I asked for miracles and other forms of proof, they balked.

 

[Machjo]

You obviously do not know the issues dealing with the shah and his fascism.

First off, I'd say fascist is a stong word. Near the end of his reign, he did run it in a semi-fascist manner without a doubt, but rather than kill his opposition he'd either impreison it or exile it. He also advanced the role of women. I'm not excusing his fascist behavriour, but simply pointing out that you're simplifying things there.

And again, non-involvement beyond one's profession doesnot constitute support for the regime.

 

[gopher]

Once again, Mosaddeq was democratically elected and there were no elections during the years he was under arrest. There were bloody riots in which the fascist SAVAK backed up by the CIA killed hundreds if not thousands of pro democracy protestors (the government never admitted to the actual numbers).

You need to research this matter in order for you to have more understanding of the subject.

 

[RanchHand]

In canada muslims most of the time are tolerant and follow our rules, cause they want to live here without trouble

In islamic countries muslims are intolerant of you breaking there traditions, but understand that as a foreigner you sometimes just dont know, and its not your fault if you break a tradition

Yes our liberals bend over backwards for them, but there are islamic countries that bend over for the west also

Whcih Islamic countries bend over backwards for the West? Which Islamic countries 'go the extra mile' for the West?

 

[Scott Free]

''The Bahia Faith is a sect of Islam and seeks to impose a world theocracy. They actually seek world domination.''

They are not a branch of Islam. But interestingly, they claim their Bahauallah is the returned Messiah. But when I asked for miracles and other forms of proof, they balked.

He forbid anyone from talking about his miracles. Interestingly not only did his followers heed this command but also his enemies and general people he came in contact with. Strange that...

He did boast about threatening to make a river reverse its coarse if the person he was talking to returned the next day but he admitted he did that because he knew the guy he threatened wouldn't come back. That doesn't sound much like a miracle to me.

Here is his passport photo (Just in case you ever wondered what the face of god looked like)