An Angle Straight to Hell.

[zenfisher]

Hmmm...so now you are elevating people above society based on intelligence and social position. It doesn't really make it an equal society then. Its a very idealistic society, but a little bit unfair.

Nope, no one is "elevated" above society based on intelligence. Infact, the position of a person who must lead the people through a revolution and resist any temptation to acquire individual control, would be a positition of necessary burden rather than an "elevation".

But this isn't entirely what you said...you left out the part about the individual having to come from humble backrounds.That immediately would place restrictions on people based on economic circumstance. That happens now.

How do you determine the fairness in work? If we all have our doctorate in philosophy or medicine,et al. Who's going to do the real physical labour? Who's going to work the waste treatment plants?

Are you implying that those who work in the waste treatment plants currently do so because they are forced to due to circumstance? Are you implying such people are not worthy of an education because that would deter them from their labor that noone else would be willing to do and this system is imperative?

I implied nothing at all. People that work in waste treatment facilities do so because they believe they are compensated fairly for the work. I am saying that it is a position in which you are not going to get a lot of people jumping to fill this position. This means you have to require individuals to perform public service positions before proceeding on to what they were trained to do.

This becomes especially true if you spent 7 years studying to become an architect or a doctor,et al.Why would you want to work in a field outside your training?

Educating all the people would not result in lack of people doing any labor jobs. It would only result in one's family he was born into, being far less likely of dictating the probability of either labor or otherwise, for his future, in every way other than possibly a common area of interest. It would also result in the people being far less likely to be manipulated.

You are making a couple of assumptions.
First that I think educating the population is a bad thing. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You are also assuming that everyone wants to pursue higher forms of education.That is not always true either.

Quite often genius level IQ students opt out of the system for a meriad of reasons. This would mean your society would be willing to forego all that the brightest have to offer becasue they were not willing to attend school and pretend to learn something they already know.

For your system to function. Mandatory public service would have to be required at some point in every persons life. It would have to be done to ensure that the positions that are less desirable, but necessary would be performed on a regular basis. It is the only way that would allow people to pursue their true ambitions.

You really haven't addressed the issue of fairness either. How would it be fair to someone who has spent seven years in Med School ...to pull them out to work on say a road building crew until a position opens up in Medicine. It is a very real possibility. You could get a high percentage of people chosing on specific field.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

How would it be fair to someone who has spent seven years in Med School ...to pull them out to work on say a road building crew until a position opens up in Medicine

Things like that happen now, at least the option for everyone to have that education should be there. As far as your point about geniuses dropping out, that doesn't really have much to do with my point.

You seem to be concentrating a little more on the process of getting to true freedom, rather than true freedom itself. The reality is, yes, when we are not currently living in a society where everyone is equal, it is impossible to have a revolutionary process where "everyone is equal" .. That's why it is often called a "rebellion". The process itself unfortunately, must be lead by the people who truly have lived through the detrimental effects of greed. The result afterwards, is true equality. I would not call that being "elevated" at all.

Our public school system should not be designed primarily as a means to benefit capitalism and large corporations as it is now. The average citizen must become more educated. If one who is a genius chooses to drop out and he truly already knows all the stuff, then that is fine, that is not my point at all.

You are also assuming that everyone wants to pursue higher forms of education.That is not always true either.

Oh come on, the percentage of people who would like to be much smarter is far greater than the percentage of otherwise, despite the odd "genius". Lot's of people also do not know what they are missing when it comes to higher ed because of the family, neighbourhood, and communities they are forced to live in. It is a system of control. Control of segregation.

 

[mattyaloo]

"If you weren't a Socialist when you were young, you had no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you get older, you have no mind."
Winston Churchill

 

[Gordon J Torture]

"If you weren't a Socialist when you were young, you had no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you get older, you have no mind."
Winston Churchill

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."

Plato 428-347 BC

 

[mattyaloo]

"If you weren't a Socialist when you were young, you had no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you get older, you have no mind."
Winston Churchill

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."

Plato 428-347 BC

"That's a sweet bike"
-Napolean Dynamite

 

[Gordon J Torture]

If you have a point to make, say it, but so far the only "point" anyone has made, is they are afraid, which is what the whole problem is to begin with.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

A funny thing is, is that I emailed my original post in this thread to a few people who grew up as I did, and they loved it. The response was very emotional actually. Even my parents loved it. I bet If I went through the slums of every major city in Canada people would be cheering as a response to that post. Yet, in here, it is frowned upon.

That tells you something about the average class of people that have time to come to internet message boards regularly. I have been truly lucky indeed, and I must use that luck to benefit humankind.

 

[mattyaloo]

A funny thing is, is that I emailed my original post in this thread to a few people who grew up as I did, and they loved it. The response was very emotional actually. Even my parents loved it. I bet If I went through the slums of every major city in Canada people would be cheering as a response to that post. Yet, in here, it is frowned upon.

That tells you something about the average class of people that have time to come to internet message boards regularly. I have been truly lucky indeed, and I must use that luck to benefit humankind.

Re: Socialism. There is only one way to reason with Socialists: Hey bub, people aren't created equally. Live with it.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

There is only one way to reason with Socialists: Hey bub, people aren't created equally. Live with it.

I am completely offended and absolutely OUTRAGED!!!

People may not be created equal in every way, this is true, but EVERY individual's over-all potential to benefit society in one way or another IS equal. Thus, no one person deserves a better quality of life than any other.

I have heard your comment before. It is surprisingly hypocritical, since it often comes from people who believe it is stereotypical to point out the differentiating biological potential between races and people.

The common lack of altruism around here is repugnant!

 

[mattyaloo]

There is only one way to reason with Socialists: Hey bub, people aren't created equally. Live with it.

I am completely offended and absolutely OUTRAGED!!!

People may not be created equal in every way, this is true, but EVERY individual's over-all potential to benefit society in one way or another IS equal. Thus, no one person deserves a better quality of life than any other.

I have heard your comment before. It is surprisingly hypocritical, since it often comes from people who believe it is stereotypical to point out the differentiating biological potential between races and people.

The common lack of altruism around here is repugnant!

Make no mistake here, friend. Socialists don't have a monopoly on altruism. Only government mandated altruism. Americans give twice as much to charity as do Canadians, a more socialist society.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Americans give twice as much to charity as do Canadians, a more socialist society.

Considering the U.S.A. is more than ONE HUNDRED times as wealthy as Canada, that says something about the percentage of their wealth they are willing to "share".

And by the way friend, the current Canadian government are not "socialists" by any means.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Hey bub, people aren't created equally. Live with it.

I still can't get the offensiveness of this out of my head. The blatant impious disrespect towards humankind collectively demonstrated by that comment is the launguage of an Extirpator.

 

[mattyaloo]

Americans give twice as much to charity as do Canadians, a more socialist society.

Considering the U.S.A. is more than ONE HUNDRED times as wealthy as Canada, that says something about the percentage of their wealth they are willing to "share".

And by the way friend, the current Canadian government are not "socialists" by any means.

I said MORE socialist thanthe US.

And I will clarify for you that Americans give twice as much to charity PER CAPITA.

 

[mattyaloo]

Hey bub, people aren't created equally. Live with it.

I still can't get the offensiveness of this out of my head. The blatant impious disrespect towards humankind collectively demonstrated by that comment is the launguage of an Extirpator.

The truth hurts. I know you'd like to live in an ideal world where we are all economically equal. But it ain't, nor will it ever, happen. Nor should it. Economic well being comes as a result or risk taking, sacrifice, ability and work. Sure,maybe we should have some kind of minimal level to take care of the mentally ill and others who can't take care of themselves. Sure, we should all have equal opportunity,but not outcome. The idea of a society that doesn't reward it's outstanding citizens economically is not only offenseive, it's disgusting.

 

[zenfisher]

How would it be fair to someone who has spent seven years in Med School ...to pull them out to work on say a road building crew until a position opens up in Medicine

Things like that happen now, at least the option for everyone to have that education should be there. As far as your point about geniuses dropping out, that doesn't really have much to do with my point.

You seem to be concentrating a little more on the process of getting to true freedom, rather than true freedom itself. The reality is, yes, when we are not currently living in a society where everyone is equal, it is impossible to have a revolutionary process where "everyone is equal" .. That's why it is often called a "rebellion". The process itself unfortunately, must be lead by the people who truly have lived through the detrimental effects of greed. The result afterwards, is true equality. I would not call that being "elevated" at all.

Our public school system should not be designed primarily as a means to benefit capitalism and large corporations as it is now. The average citizen must become more educated. If one who is a genius chooses to drop out and he truly already knows all the stuff, then that is fine, that is not my point at all.

You are also assuming that everyone wants to pursue higher forms of education.That is not always true either.

Oh come on, the percentage of people who would like to be much smarter is far greater than the percentage of otherwise, despite the odd "genius". Lot's of people also do not know what they are missing when it comes to higher ed because of the family, neighbourhood, and communities they are forced to live in. It is a system of control. Control of segregation.

You've taken a lot of this out of context and you still haven't addressed the issue of fairness.

I am focusing on a very narrow field to emphasize a serious flaw in the system. You are right a lot of people do end up working in other fields, but in a true communist system, where freedom is held to be the most important value...the possibility of a majority of people electing to pick prefered fields is a greater possibility. The problem arises because any society needs an infrastructure to maintain, build, repair and service the needs of that society.If there is no one to perform these tasks the society begins to crumble.
For example...if 95% of your population decides to become Doctors< Nurses, Ambulance Drivers, MRI Technicians...that leaves you a pool of 5 % of the population to maintain the roads, build the hospitals, manufacture the ambulances and MRI equipment, et al. That is providing they elect to perform these duties... (remember this is supposedly a free society as well.) Eventually equipment breaks down, roads fail, bridges collapse...merely because the 5 % can't keep up with the demand. This means Ambulances may not be able to get hospitals. It could mean there is one hospital for the size and population of Ontario.

Am I harping on this point...yes...because you seem to want to skirt around the issue.

People drop out of school for dozens of reasons. That doesn't make them any less intelligent. Here again you are assuming that all knowledge is found within the Ivy halls. That is far from the truth. Of course everyone would wish to be a little more intelligent. The assumption that they wouldn't want to be smarter is just bizarre...and I never made that statement.

As for people not knowing what there missing as far as higher education....this is why in poorer communities you find the parents pushing their kids hard to get good grades...to get into colleges. Again even in a true communist society, you will have to face the reality that there are limited resources. While I applaud the idea of everyone receiving a free education, if they want it, I don't see it as an entirely practical. Definately it would be a nightmare to administrate.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

The idea of a society that doesn't reward it's outstanding citizens economically is not only offenseive, it's disgusting.

Thats where we differ. I do not see financial gain as the only way to "reward" citizens. The only thing "disgusting" is your impious lack of altruism. Hell, according to many of you, the extremely wealthy claim they know poor people who are truly happy, yet they themselves are not. With that said, how exactly are they really being "rewarded"?

And listen to this guy about "per capita" .. And how much richer is the US kind Sir?

And Zen, you are missing my point completely, and perhaps I too am missing some of yours. Perhaps if we could talk in person it would be easier, but here, because of lack of inflection and such, it is way too easy to misunderstand each other.

I will try to summerize my point with the following example: Right now, they teach all sorts of things in highschool, math, auto machanics, wood shop. etc. Not every person who takes auto, goes on to work in that Field. It is simply useful knowledge. Not every person who takes advanced math all the way though high school, ends up a math teacher. Get my point? I will explain further ...

The entire education system should be redesigned so that the average citizen has an education equivalent to what is now a University education. Still with me? I am not talking about specialization degrees like you keep referring to. PHD's would require extra years of schooling compared to bachelor degrees as they do now, and people who pursue those will do so out of love for the subject and respect in society, because it will not lead to "better pay". I assure you, not everyone wants to be a doctor out of pure interest. Also, many people grow up to think it is "manly" to work with their hands. That is how they earn their respect with THEIR family. Despite having a superior education, they would still desire that respect.

Currently, most people who do not go to university, do not have a clue what is really going on around them, or why things are really happening, thus, they are easy to manipulate and control. That's what our current government and the corporations that control them want. That is what creates a successful democracy.

Basically, my idea is that "highschool" go up to "grade 16" or whatever we wish to call it. The entire system needs to be redesigned to benefit the people and not the corporations. The extra 4 years should be equivalent to what is now a bachelors degree. This should be free, and the common level of education in the country.

You have been subjected to so much propaganda, you are thinking with fear, and emotion instead of logic and insight.

Believe me friend, I know damn well that dropping out of school does not necessarily mean someone is less intelligent. Again, I wish we could speak in person because you miss my point completely. MOST people who do not have University Educations in our country, do not have a clue about what is really going on around them. That is what is disturbing.

 

[zenfisher]

Currently, most people who do not go to university, do not have a clue what is really going on around them, or why things are really happening, thus, they are easy to manipulate and control. That's what our current government and the corporations that control them want. That is what creates a successful democracy.

Basically, my idea is that "highschool" go up to "grade 16" or whatever we wish to call it. The entire system needs to be redesigned to benefit the people and not the corporations. The extra 4 years should be equivalent to what is now a bachelors degree. This should be free, and the common level of education in the country.

You have been subjected to so much propaganda, you are thinking with fear, and emotion instead of logic and insight.

Believe me friend, I know damn well that dropping out of school does not necessarily mean someone is less intelligent. Again, I wish we could speak in person because you miss my point completely. MOST people who do not have University Educations in our country, do not have a clue about what is really going on around them. That is what is disturbing.

Believe me ...I am not afraid. I do not consider myself very emotional about the subject at hand. Passionate ... to some degree. I agree that to speak in person would be preferable. Although this forum does allow you to collect your thoughts and express them with clarity. Some people are better oraters..some are better writers.

You have a tendency to generalize. I know people that have dropped out of high school and university that are far more aware of what's happening in this world than many university students or grads for that matter. I had a friend when I was growing up who was an extremely talented artist. After his first year of University his professor confessed that there really wasn't anything he could teach him that he didn't know.At least as far as artistic technique was concerned. He dropped out and last I heard he was designing a car.

I understand your points about education. Personally I believe that for those that want a higher education ...it should be provided for free. I also believe that medical care should be free. I even would go so far to say that in an ideal world the basic food groups should be provided for all humankind.

However...I also believe we should be allowed to succeed or fail based on our own merits. This should apply to corporations as well as individuals.It is up to the individual to determine what they deem their venture as successful or is a failure. A blend between socialism and capitlaism if you will. Where is the incentive for someone who works hard ( for an ideal or for profit) to maintain that pace....when someone who is sitting on their ass...doing a minimal amount of work. How is that a fair and just society? Hasn't anyone in your educational past had Animal Farm as a part of the curriculum?

As far as what creates a successful democracy ( I haven't really seen one of thse yet either.) I think it has more to do with the people being directly involved in the process. Voting is important...but applying pressure to your MLA and MP to do what your community elected them to do...is what is needed. Another problem is ( and your right here) is vision. We need people with a plan and leadership abilities. Common sense has been replaced by mediocrity. That is the problem with communism...when it comes to the truly difficult problems in the system. Common sense goes out the window and corruption ensues.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

You have a tendency to generalize. I know people that have dropped out of high school and university that are far more aware of what's happening in this world than many university students or grads for that matter. I had a friend when I was growing up who was an extremely talented artist. After his first year of University his professor confessed that there really wasn't anything he could teach him that he didn't know.At least as far as artistic technique was concerned. He dropped out and last I heard he was designing a car.

I am "generalizing" because I am thinking in terms of what is best for society collectively. Everyone knows people who dropped out yet are smart sh*t, that is not my point. Statistically, and in reality, most people without educations do not have a clue what is going on, and thus, are easy to manipulate. That is where the problem is. I am not arguing some people succeed without it.

Communism has never really been tested. You are making generalizatoins. We need to learn from past attempts and use that knowledge to make it work. You are right though, vision is lacking big time currently. Just look at the so called defeat of the USSR from communism. The USA was supposed to benefit big time from it. Why didn't they? .. Because they didn't realize the contributions socialist countries were making to poor nations, and this had a huge impact. Socialist countries had been helping maintain world political and economic stability. Socialist countries economic aid to poor countries in Asia and Africa had been alleviating the burden on the world capitalist economy.

 

[zenfisher]

Even the most intelligent people can be manipulated. Einstein comes to mind immediately.

Communism has been tested. It starts out with the best intentions and then degenerates into dictatorships. Mao and Castro are perfect examples. They did come closest to producing the "true" communist state.

Hmmmm...wasn't it the western capitalist powers that bailed the USSR out when the economy collapsed. Isn't it the G8 ( after be heavily pushed into it) that are working on plans for debt relief in poorer countries? Isn't China moving towards a more capitalistic society?

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Even the most intelligent people can be manipulated. Einstein comes to mind immediately

Even the best boxers can be defeated in the ring, even the best weight lifters out-lifted, even the best actors outstaged, that is all IRRELEVENT and nothing more than a far stretch to make a point! A decent education that unlike the current system of ED, does not finish when one is about 17, in addition to some basic political education, would go a LONG way to ensure it is not ridiculously easy for a government to manipulate the majority into getting almost WHATEVER it wants as it can now. And yes my friend, I am aware there are smart people out there that never went to University.

Communism has been tested. It starts out with the best intentions and then degenerates into dictatorships. Mao and Castro are perfect examples. They did come closest to producing the "true" communist state.

The transition phase has been tested, and we can learn from those tests. True modern communism has not yet been achieved. Thus, your points are stereotypical and not valid.

wasn't it the western capitalist powers that bailed the USSR out when the economy collapsed. Isn't it the G8 ( after be heavily pushed into it) that are working on plans for debt relief in poorer countries? Isn't China moving towards a more capitalistic society?

During the 1980's, the United States intensified its Cold War against the Soviet Union and its allies. By this time the Soveits were vulnerable. While the USA had changed, the Soviet regime had stagnated. The Soviet people had a lower standard of living than those of us in the west, but Stalin had the support of the public despite the fact he was basically a dictator because he previoiusly created economic growth while the capitalist system was still in the "great depression". During, these vulnerable times for the USSR, was when the capitalist system got the upper hand, when the Soviet system could not do so.

It is obvious that increasing productivity and market capacity are common capitalist practices. This is done through technological advances and company mergers. In the USA and capitalist nations, they tend to merge giant corporations, thus, preventing competition. Mergers as such, allow those corporations to control the markets and maintain the level of prices. They also save on labor costs through "downsizing" (causing millions of workers to be jobless.) It is only through the well strategized ignorance of the masses they are able to do this. These merges however are not optimal in terms of long term profit. Workers become unemployed and lose their purchasing ability, and so companies cannot expand their markets. Because of coordination and these mergers, the multinational corporations have become divided among the market and virtually eleminated free competition. It is now obvious to many, we live under a well disguised dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Only a dictarorship of the proletariat can destroy this malevolent force and restore balance to humankind.