America's Innocence Ravaged On 9/11

[fuzzylogix]

Well, it could be said that it was a turning point with respect to the fact that it was a wake up call.... I think we in the western world have had a luxury up til 9/11 - we enjoyed living in a place where this IS unusual... having the violence brought into home territory on such a large scale forced us to see that we are not impervious, and if we're going to play in the mud, we might get dirty. Yes, our innocence was ravaged in a horrific way - and wasn't that the intention of the culprits?

.... we have been forced to ask ourselves "Why....." The answers are still being debated, and likely never agreed upon. My response - from the moment occured - was this: "All attack is a cry for help" ...in my idealistic little brain, it seemed that the answer to Why could best be arrived at by actually asking the question "What is it you perceive we have done to elicit such an extreme gesture from you?" And then actually listen to the answer.... What baffles me is the debates I see raging all over insisting that it's somehow related to a purely unjustified hatred towards all things, people and ideas western/American. Doesn't wash with me.... these people obviously feel they have a serious and valid grievance. I am not not not condoning 9/11 - that event has etched itself on my heart as deeply as everyone else here... and I've wrestled with the Why question too...but I don't personally see yet how we've made any kind of response to it that will actually alleviate the motivation for such attacks.... fear and intimidation only work for so long - and it seems we've come far past that place where the threat of retaliation is an effective deterrent... the time is ripe to look for new solutions...

I fully agree Zan, although I dont think it was our innocence that was shattered. I think it was our naivete in THINKING we were innocent. Yes, we now are forced to question WHY it happened. The US was being attacked all ready in other parts of the world (embassies etc) but until the American soil was attacked, the western world could look the other way. Now it has to face the fact that somehow people are mad enough to do this. Yes, it is time to question the root cause of this, and that questioning is what leads to the intense arguments on this forum. Some individuals cant look at the past ills and sins of the western world and see them for what they are.
911 was a provoked attack. Doesnt make it right. But if you want to prevetn another attack, you have to look for the cause.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

Said1 is the manufacturing of arms and munitions for Uncle Sam really Canadian or is it corporate, the two are not the same thing the corporate world has no alligance to any nation the corporatists only repect money and that trumps any nationalistic connections. But it is criminal that we permit the manufacture of arms for the machine.

Your defense industry is one of the most heavily subsidized and protected sectors of the Canadian economy. Maybe you should do some research on the issue, try the CDIA, then we can talk about the evil corporations.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: America's Innocence R

The mistake George Bush made after 9/11 was to declare a war on terrorism, since terrorism is and has been the primary American tool in foreign policy, the word should have been avoided like the plaque, I remember being struck with amazment as the idiot put the terrorism question to the world, I can only imagine the piss poor advisors that allowed the question to be framed in the first place, in the manner it was, This to me spoke of true moral decay, to be the formost terrorists and believe that you could hide behind the very flag that means death and starvation to many of the worlds people is a sign of decadent stupidity.

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

Said1 is the manufacturing of arms and munitions for Uncle Sam really Canadian or is it corporate, the two are not the same thing the corporate world has no alligance to any nation the corporatists only repect money and that trumps any nationalistic connections. But it is criminal that we permit the manufacture of arms for the machine.

Your defense industry is one of the most heavily subsidized and protected sectors of the Canadian economy. Maybe you should do some research on the issue, try the CDIA, then we can talk about the evil corporations.

There will be some changes with respect to corporation ITN, the good times for them are going to go down the tubes with NAFTA.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

There will be some changes with respect to corporation ITN, the good times for them are going to go down the tubes with NAFTA.

Oh I don't know about that, military exports account for a large chunk of your economy, to Uncle Sam nonetheless, whatever will you do with the tens of thousands of Canadians employed in the industry?

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

[

Said1 is the manufacturing of arms and munitions for Uncle Sam really Canadian or is it corporate, the two are not the same thing the corporate world has no alligance to any nation the corporatists only repect money and that trumps any nationalistic connections.
But it is criminal that we permit the manufacture of arms for the machine.

If one is trying to draw attentin to the contribution of others to bomb making, they must acknowledge their own nations contribution to war, all over the world, including the United States. Corporations and their alligence to any nation is totally redundant to my point, since I was high lighting hypocracy.

 

[zoofer]

I see Canada finally had the gumption to outlaw the Tamil Tigers, another terrorist organization. They seemed to be the darlings of the darkside.

 

[Toro]

In the continental United States, there are large deposits of shale, from which hydrocarbons can be mined.

The largest known oil shale deposits in the world are in the Green River Formation, which covers portions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming...For potentially recoverable oil shale resources, we roughly derive an upper bound of 1.1 trillion barrels of oil and a lower bound of about 500 billion barrels...the midpoint in our estimate range, 800 billion barrels, is more than triple the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia. Present U.S. demand for petroleum products is about 20 million barrels per day.

And that's one formation. There are others.

But it is awhile away, enough time for Alberta to make tons of money.

at least 12 and possibly more years will elapse before oil shale development will reach the production growth phase. Under high growth assumptions, an oil shale production level of 1 million barrels per day is probably more than 20 years in the future, and 3 million barrels per day is probably more than 30 years into the future.

http://rand.org/pubs/monographs/2005/RAND_MG414.pdf

 

[Toro]

The United States averaged 20.7 million barrels oil per day consumption in 2005.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/oilconsumption.html

Look at: Selected OECD Countries and Total OECD, Most Recent Months and Years

The United States imported, on average, 2.3 million barrels of oil each day from the Persian Gulf.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/oiltrade.html

Look at: Total Gross Petroleum Imports into Individual OECD Countries and Total OECD, From Persian Gulf. " "Persian Gulf" consists of Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates."

Middle Eastern imports account for 11% of total US consumption.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: America's Innocence R

I don't think you have the time you need to develope the shale, and in any case you can't leave the middle east in middleeastern hands.

 

[Toro]

RE: America's Innocence R

America has the time.

If oil is as scarce as we are made to believe, then its going to $100 or higher. That will cut consumption and spur substitution.

 

[Toro]

This is the cost of energy inputs for every output of GDP. Over time, we are using less energy per unit of output.

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: America's Innocence R

Real Anti-American action will begin to take place in Canada soon, with Mr Harpers agenda becoming clear with respect to deep intigration with American Institutions, violent fallout cannot be avoided. I don't believe that Canadians will tolerate wholesale sellout quietly.

Canadians have been tolerating it quite well for a long time. The US totally controls Canada's universities--its knowledge organs--and this is why there is so much confusion about life in the US. I can't even think about any aspect of Canadian life that is not totally integrated with the US including this website. You do realize darkbeaver that you are posting to a US server and that what you post is governed by the Patriot Act? You may as well be residing in the US that is how integrated you are. So I doubt Canadians will revolt any time soon as everything there is to revolt about has already occurred.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Innocence R

I think ITN hasnt been drinking his juice again, he seems to feel I'm attacking the US in some way......let me clear something up before he goes off the boil again.

Right:

1. The 9/11 attacks were similar to Pearl Harbor in that it woke the american nation up to events that were happening over the world anyway FACT.

2. America Counts WW1 as what?...from 1916-18 and WW2 from 1941-45, but as you know you can add a few years onto this for most of the world.....add a decade for China.

Simply put...it's a big deal FOR THE US...not for me, not for my country, the fact is my country didnt want to go to war, it was forced upon us by our prime minister, and thanks to that we have been tared under the same brush as YOU, so we find our asses getting bombed TOO, so yes, it is OUR problem now, but it doesnt mean it is anything new or unsual.

God, it's like the field of flags in Idaho, where's the other nations eh?...why just the star-spangled banner?...insulting, as if no other nationals died in that particular event......nearly as insulting as the salesmen and profiteers outside the base of WTC, if it were in england they would be arrested....INSULTING*

*que the "god I'm glad I'm not in england" rubbish then....just remember this ISNT an American board

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: America's Innocence R

*que the "god I'm glad I'm not in england" rubbish then....just remember this ISNT an American board

And yet most of the "news" has to do with the US. Is this your best defense? Try again.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Innocence R

it's actually more about a "Canadian" view of events in the US...and around the world....Apart from that crazy compatriot of mine, Blackleaf, he'll write about anything.

But seriously, have you seen the field of flags in Idaho?

it's not all about the US (it's like one of those kids to hear half a conversation and suddenly think it's all about them)

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: America's Innocence R

it's actually more about a "Canadian" view of events in the US...and around the world....Apart from that crazy compatriot of mine, Blackleaf, he'll write about anything.

But seriously, have you seen the field of flags in Idaho?

it's not all about the US (it's like one of those kids to hear half a conversation and suddenly think it's all about them)

Look Daz, I realize the US can be an irritant because you THINK, we think, it's all about us. The fact of the matter is the media is obsessed with the US, ours, yours, theirs, everybody. From CBC, to ABC to BBC to Al Jazeera, their breaking news and headlines orbit the US. This isn't OUR fault, 9/11 hit us hard, emotionally more than anything else. We reacted to it and the world, as usual, made it headlines.

And I'm not going to get drawn into a WWI or WWII debate with you on this thread. if you want to dicuss the issues of WWI or WWII start another thread. It never ceases to amaze me how we can't stay on one topic without trying to invoke something totally irrelevant to try and make a point.

 

[Daz_Hockey]

RE: America's Innocence R

Thats very true......Point well made

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

Said1 is the manufacturing of arms and munitions for Uncle Sam really Canadian or is it corporate, the two are not the same thing the corporate world has no alligance to any nation the corporatists only repect money and that trumps any nationalistic connections.
But it is criminal that we permit the manufacture of arms for the machine.

Even though its a somewhat of a tangent, I agree and its one of the main reasons I was pleased with the outcome of the last election. Not that it stops what's going on in the back rooms, but at least a change of players will knock things off stride for a while.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: AMERICA'S INNOCENCE R

If one is trying to draw attentin to the contribution of others to bomb making, they must acknowledge their own nations contribution to war, all over the world, including the United States. Corporations and their alligence to any nation is totally redundant to my point, since I was high lighting hypocracy.

If you're putting Canada's bilateral trade in the same league with the McNamara assembly line and concommitant marginal cost driven American foreign policy I'd say you are sorely overstating your case.

If you're just saying no one is innocent, I'd agree. But no one in this thread has said that. about Canada, anyways.