Alberta threatens over equalization

[Hank C]

Alberta threatens to drop out of equalization deal with other provinces
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EDMONTON (CP) - Alberta is threatening to drop out of the federal government's revenue-sharing deal with other provinces if energy income is included in the equalization formula.

Premier Ralph Klein says he's seeking a legal opinion to see if Alberta has the right to pull out, and says he'll fight "tooth and nail" against attempts by Quebec or other provinces to tap into Alberta's energy windfall.

"We will participate if the feds and the provinces conclude that there ought to be a 10-province standard," Klein said Wednesday. "But we won't participate if resource revenues are included."

The premier said the Constitution clearly states that Alberta has control and authority over its resources.

"This is a political showdown, but this is also a constitutional issue."

The federal Conservatives will have a battle on their hands if they don't live up to their election promise not to include resource revenues in the equalization formula, said Klein.

A recently released report prepared for the federal government called for 50 per cent of resource revenues to be included in the calculation of equalization. A report prepared for the provinces called for all resource revenues to be used in the calculation.

But Klein said he won't stand for that and he's hoping that the sanctity of resource revenues will be reflected in another report being prepared for Ottawa.

"The federal government has given a commitment that they will resolve the issue by this fall, so we'll wait and see what they do."

The Alberta premier is girding for what he calls a political showdown with Quebec and Ontario at a special leaders meeting following the western premiers conference in Gimli, Man., next week.

Alberta expects strong support from premiers in western and Atlantic Canada, and Klein said he wants the issue resolved before he retires in the late fall.

Equalization is a complex and often misunderstood system of revenue sharing between provinces.

Currently, the federal government calculates the fiscal capacity of each province, then establishes a standard by averaging the capacity of five provinces: Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia.

Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan currently are above the standard, but all other provinces fall below and receive equalization payments from federal coffers to ensure similar services nationwide.

But most provinces are now pushing for a standard based on the fiscal capacity of all 10 provinces, including energy-rich Alberta, so that they will receive more money.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's letter to the provinces during last winter's federal election campaign promised an equalization formula based on an average of 10 provinces and excluding resource revenues.

Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has said recently that the Conservatives are sticking to that election promise.

He was travelling Wednesday and was not available for comment.

©The Canadian Press, 2006

 

[Hank C]

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/NationalNewsArticle.htm?&src=n052463A.xml

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Alberta's Threats Over Equalization

I seem to have found myself to be of a somewhat compromised position in relation to this situation; I don't think that The Honourable Ralph Klein, M.L.A., the Member for Calgary—Elbow and the Premier of the Province of Alberta, should be attempting remove the Province of Alberta from the formula.

I think that it should indeed be recognized that the Province has more resources than a vast majority of the other Provinces; however, the point of the formula is to ensure that there is a common, adequate standard for services among the Provinces of Canada. I think that it would be appropriate to recognize that the Provinces are parts of a greater Canada, and that the resources in each Province are, in some sense, the resources of each and every citizen. I don't think that it would be a huge stretch to suggest that those resources should, in some capacity, make the lives of every person in Canada better.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Alberta threatens to drop out of equalization deal with other provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDMONTON (CP) - Alberta is threatening to drop out of the federal government's revenue-sharing deal with other provinces if energy income is included in the equalization formula.

Premier Ralph Klein says he's seeking a legal opinion to see if Alberta has the right to pull out, and says he'll fight "tooth and nail" against attempts by Quebec or other provinces to tap into Alberta's energy windfall.

"We will participate if the feds and the provinces conclude that there ought to be a 10-province standard," Klein said Wednesday. "But we won't participate if resource revenues are included."

The premier said the Constitution clearly states that Alberta has control and authority over its resources.

"This is a political showdown, but this is also a constitutional issue."

The federal Conservatives will have a battle on their hands if they don't live up to their election promise not to include resource revenues in the equalization formula, said Klein.

A recently released report prepared for the federal government called for 50 per cent of resource revenues to be included in the calculation of equalization. A report prepared for the provinces called for all resource revenues to be used in the calculation.

But Klein said he won't stand for that and he's hoping that the sanctity of resource revenues will be reflected in another report being prepared for Ottawa.

"The federal government has given a commitment that they will resolve the issue by this fall, so we'll wait and see what they do."

The Alberta premier is girding for what he calls a political showdown with Quebec and Ontario at a special leaders meeting following the western premiers conference in Gimli, Man., next week.

Alberta expects strong support from premiers in western and Atlantic Canada, and Klein said he wants the issue resolved before he retires in the late fall.

Equalization is a complex and often misunderstood system of revenue sharing between provinces.

Currently, the federal government calculates the fiscal capacity of each province, then establishes a standard by averaging the capacity of five provinces: Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia.

Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan currently are above the standard, but all other provinces fall below and receive equalization payments from federal coffers to ensure similar services nationwide.

But most provinces are now pushing for a standard based on the fiscal capacity of all 10 provinces, including energy-rich Alberta, so that they will receive more money.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's letter to the provinces during last winter's federal election campaign promised an equalization formula based on an average of 10 provinces and excluding resource revenues.

Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has said recently that the Conservatives are sticking to that election promise.

He was travelling Wednesday and was not available for comment.

©The Canadian Press, 2006

As a fascist, I would never allow this. Where were the Albertans when Ontario and Quebec were literally supporting the remainder of Canada when they were a have-not province?? Do the Albertans understand that it is Ontario/Quebec cash that allowed them to develop the oilfields from which they are enjoying an economic boom of incredible strength? Surely Albertans were not too concerned how Ontarians felt about the majority of THEIR money going out to support THEM. Now that they have such an economic boom, suddenly the oil is THEIRS. I would never tolerate this. Alberta is not a country. CANADA is a country. I would have my fascist government representatives in Alberta so fast their heads would spin. The Alberta government would be removed from office immediately and replaced with a fascist Governor who is in Alberta as a representative of what would then be Canada's new fascist ruler - ME.

I would not tolerate such attempts at the division of Canada. I would remind Alberta they are but one of many provines which make up the country that is Canada. I do not give a shit about one province. I give a shit about all of Canada. If I expect Alberta to share their newfound wealth, they had better damn well do as they are told or I would have our Canadian Forces occupy the oilfields in Alberta and simply TAKE the oil. If Alberta continues to be bitchy, then I will simply carve their province up between B.C. and Saskatchewan. I will not take shit from the greedy robber barons that are the Alberta government. Do as you are told and we will get along fine.

 

[Hank C]

..................................................................................

 

[Hank C]

yea well we dont live in your wet dream, and there are other issues such as the constitution

 

[Jay]

Where were the Albertans when Ontario and Quebec were literally supporting the remainder of Canada when they were a have-not province??

That isn't the point...the point is we have no right to that resource. If Ontario and the feds or who ever want to dump cash into Alberta, they can do so, but it doesn't have to reciprocate back to them because the price of oil is at an all time high.

I would have my fascist government representatives in Alberta so fast their heads would spin. The Alberta government would be removed from office immediately and replaced with a fascist Governor who is in Alberta as a representative of what would then be Canada's new fascist ruler - ME.

And you would be shot.


Allow FascistCanuck to be an example to us all why we must never give up the right to arm ourselves.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Where were the Albertans when Ontario and Quebec were literally supporting the remainder of Canada when they were a have-not province??

That isn't the point...the point is we have no right to that resource. If Ontario and the feds or who ever want to dump cash into Alberta, they can do so, but it doesn't have to reciprocate back to them because the price of oil is at an all time high.

I would have my fascist government representatives in Alberta so fast their heads would spin. The Alberta government would be removed from office immediately and replaced with a fascist Governor who is in Alberta as a representative of what would then be Canada's new fascist ruler - ME.

And you would be shot.


Allow FascistCanuck to be an example to us all why we must never give up the right to arm ourselves.

Excellent! So the next time Alberta runs into financial trouble, ONTARIO and QUEBEC have the right to tell Alberta to piss off if they ask for money? According to your logic yes they do. Absolutely. You state the fact Ontario and Quebec having supported Alberta all those years is not the point. Actually that is the ONLY point. It is called SHARING. That is what transfer payments are all about. An attempt to allay any budgetary shortfalls by moving cash about the country. Ontario and Quebec could easily have said 'why in hell are our people being forced to work so hard only to see their taxes end up in Alberta??' They have EVERY right to ask this question. It is after all THEIR cash. They have actually demanded to know the answer much to their detriment every time the current national government refuses them. Ontarians and Quebecois have every right to the oil profits Alberta enjoys. It is Ontario and Quebec cash that pays for their hospitals, their social services. In the past, Alberta alone could not have supported their own infrastructure. The population base and therefore the tax base was much too small - still is. Hence the introduction of transfer payments which attempted to make things more equitable amongst the provinces. As a fascist, I would make them even MORE equitable.
Immediately upon taking office, I would have Alberta's current government removed from office. The military would immediately occupy the Alberta oilfields until such time as I can discuss arrangements with the many oil companies who currentely participate in the exploitation of such resources. I would allow those same companies to have exploration and capping rights to those resources BUT under my rules, not theirs. I would ensure their profits become CAnada's profits also. Not ALBERTA's. CANADA's!!
Believe it or not, I would allow the people of Canada to discuss with me whether they wish to maintain their right to arm themselves or would they rather have a form of gun control. I would have a referendum on this. If the people prefer full gun control, then so be it. My fascist government would not ASK that you return the guns. We would simply TAKE them from you as this would be the wish of the people. I do not dance around people. Those who resist will be jailed indefinitely.

 

[FascistCanuck]

Re: RE: Alberta threatens over equalization

yea well we dont live in your wet dream, and there are other issues such as the constitution

Under my fascist rule, the constitution would be removed. Another one would be written up. The previous constitution has too much socialist nonesense in it. You do understand that under Canada's current Charter of Rights, you do NOT have the right to own property. I would change this.

Please refrain from talking about current systems. I would remove ALL of them once I gain power. This would in fact be a new fascist REVOLUTION. I only seek to better the nation that is Canada. I abhor the fact Canada has become a worldwide JOKE. I will not tolerate this any longer.

 

[FiveParadox]

RE: Democracy in Canada

Canada is not a "joke" to our worldwide neighbours.

Our democratic heritage is respected, if not mirrored, in many other nations across this world — our system of government is tried, tested, and a major success (recognizing, of course, that improvements are possible within the present framework). As for suggesting that the Constitution Act, 1867 and its predecessors be removed from the Statutes of Canada, I don't think that such suggestions are even worth consideration. It would never occur, and a "fascist" government, in the state that the member above is proposing, would never achieve power in Canada.

You know what, I think that if it ever looks as though such a leader is on a rise to power (through whatever means), we should petition the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to amend the Canada Act to recover our dominion, haha. They could come rescue us from the crazies.

 

[Jay]

Actually he would represent a great threat to America, and they would just move in, shoot him, and govern this place under their constitution.

Couldn't be all bad....

 

[sanch]

Well it finally looks like there will be a campaign promise Harper will keep. The guy is a joke.

It does look like the Albertans are more willing to share the oil wealth with the communist Chinese then with other Canadians. This development will make some on this board very happy.

 

[sanch]

Forgot the evidence yesterday. There is no doubt China will make a bundle off Albertan Oil. Maybe Klein can get China to open up to democracy and respect human rights. Politics make strange bedfellows and as long as Albertans are comfortable about who they do business with. . . should we care?


http://www.gov.ab.ca/premier/missions_asia.cfm

"What we're suggesting...as China searches the world to find secure and reliable supply of oil (is) they should be looking here," Klein said.

"We continue to impress upon Chinese oil companies that there are opportunities (in Alberta), that the only oil isn't in Venezuela, or Australia or Indonesia or Brazil, that there is a very safe and reliable source of oil here."

 

[Hank C]

Ottawa to make final call on equalization, Harper tells squabbling provinces
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VANCOUVER (CP) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper appears to be losing patience with provinces' squabbling over equalization, including a threat by Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to "opt out" if energy revenues are included in the formula.

"We know the provinces are very divided on this," Harper told reporters Thursday. "I think we need to be clear: equalization is not an Alberta program or an Ontario program. Equalization is a strictly federal program."

The issue has once again polarized premiers, with Saskatchewan's Lorne Calvert backing Klein and New Brunswick's Bernard Lord supporting Harper's position.

Klein, who retires as premier later this year, threatened Wednesday to find a legal way to exit the revenue-sharing program if Alberta's mushrooming oil and gas royalties figure into the formula.

Under equalization, Ottawa tops up the coffers of so-called have-not provinces to ensure all Canadians receive comparable public services.

Klein said the federal Conservatives campaigned on a promise not to include resource revenues in a revamped equalization formula.

"We will participate if the feds and the provinces conclude that there ought to be a 10-province standard," Klein said. "But we won't participate if resource revenues are included."

Under the current system, Ottawa calculates the fiscal capacity of each province and establishes a standard by averaging five of them - a group Harper noted doesn't include Alberta.

Most provinces are pushing for a 10-province standard, which should net the have-nots more money. In the election campaign, Harper promised to introduce the 10-province standard and leave out resource revenues.

But a recently released report prepared for the federal government recommended half of resource revenues should be included in the calculation. A report done for the provinces suggests all resource money should go into the equalization pot.

Ontario Liberal Premier Dalton McGinty has complained his province historically has carried most of the load under the current formula.

"Obviously while I'd like to see a consensus of the provinces on this, it's I think becoming increasingly obvious there won't be one," said Harper. Alberta appears on a collision course with Ontario and Quebec when the premiers sit down to discuss the issue after the western premiers' conference in Gimli, Man., next week.

Harper said the government wants to put equalization on a "principled basis for years to come."

"What's been happening in recent years is the federal government just increasingly arbitrarily assigns a number," he said. "That doesn't seem to us to be fair." Saskatchewan Premier Lorne Calvert echoed Klein's comments, saying he's on the "same page."

Saskatchewan is Canada's second-largest producer of oil and third-largest producer of natural gas. But if the money gained from those products isn't included in the equalization formula, Saskatchewan would benefit from hundreds of millions of dollars in federal transfer payments.

"We share the view that oil and gas revenues, non-renewable natural resource revenues, should be excluded from the equation," Calvert told an open line radio show in Regina on Thursday.

But Lord agreed with Harper, saying Alberta is making empty threats.

"No province can pull out," he said in Fredericton. "Well, I guess a receiving province can decide not to receive any money."

Lord added the money for the program doesn't come from the government of Alberta, it comes from the government of Canada.

Gary Mar, Alberta's minister of international and intergovernmental relations, predicted that other provinces - possibly British Columbia, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia - would also back Klein's position.

Mar shrugged off Harper's suggestion that the federal government will have the final say.

Instead, Mar said Alberta will be reminding the prime minister about the promise he made in a letter to the premiers during the last federal election campaign in which he said natural resource revenues would not be part of the equalization formula.

"We want to make sure that the prime minister is impeccable with his word."

Mar said Alberta, with 10 per cent of the population, is already paying about 14 per cent of the cost of equalization. That would only get worse with a change in the formula.

British Columbia Premier Gordon Campbell said equalization has long been a fractious subject.

"I can tell you the most difficult meetings I've had with my colleagues, the premiers, are discussions about equalization because rather than being driven by policy, they're being driven by, in many cases, by how much money one province or another may get."

Still, Quebec Premier Jean Charest said he wasn't worried the talks would fall apart.

 

[Hank C]

All I can say is Mr. Harper better watch it, and remember who put him in office. Sure he may be able to win a few more seats in Quebec, but Quebec is only worried about how much money it can skim off the rest of Canada, as they are the largest welfare recipient. But as soon as anything happens they will turn on Harper. The Conservatives need to be worrying about Alberta, Ontario and BC.....forget Quebec.

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: Alberta threatens over equalization

All I can say is Mr. Harper better watch it, and remember who put him in office. Sure he may be able to win a few more seats in Quebec, but Quebec is only worried about how much money it can skim off the rest of Canada, as they are the largest welfare recipient. But as soon as anything happens they will turn on Harper. The Conservatives need to be worrying about Alberta, Ontario and BC.....forget Quebec.

This is a vacuous threat. What political alternative is there for Albertans? Hook up with the communists? Scratch that as it is already being done, Maybe Albertans could vote NDP or liberal? LOL

Maybe Harper is finally doing something intelligent and showing some moxie.

 

[fintry]

In the past, Albertans alone, when it joined Canada, could not have supported their own infrastructure. This has not changed. Today albertan working force is still unable to support its own oil infrastructure as it was unable to do so in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. albertans companies visit every university campus in the East, they hire as many students as possible and they offer big $$ to bring them to alberta. Ralph, what would happen if you act out and threaten the eastern workers you need to keep the oil industry rolling? who will do their work if the easterners pull out of Alberta and go back home?

 

[Western Canadian Chick]

Re: RE: Alberta threatens over equalization

In the past, Albertans alone, when it joined Canada, could not have supported their own infrastructure. This has not changed. Today albertan working force is still unable to support its own oil infrastructure as it was unable to do so in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. albertans companies visit every university campus in the East, they hire as many students as possible and they offer big $$ to bring them to alberta. Ralph, what would happen if you act out and threaten the eastern workers you need to keep the oil industry rolling? who will do their work if the easterners pull out of Alberta and go back home?

Oh puh-lease! Ontario whined and complained a TON more when they were the ones supporting the nation. You didn't hear them saying how great they thought it was to share etc etc. And I do not see why oil resources should be included, because they are resources that will eventually run out...so why should we give them to everyone else? I'll probably get the response here "well since they will run out, we'll have to support you again when you go on the negative side" that is true, that might happen, but why would you want to speed that eventuality along by taking this non renewable money out of the equation now? I'm frankly sick of Ontario thinking that they have to be #1 in the country, in power (they have the most votes, and manage to get their parties in with only a 30% support) and in economy (they have previously been blessed with being located directly beside the American economic power house, who invested in the Ontario economy and made them the golden children of the country...somewhat ironic that they mostly seem to have such an anti America view point considering most of their economy is stimulated by Americans). Now that Alberta is economically superior, Ontario is showing a little jealousy. As for Quebec, and the Maritimes, they are just on whichever side will give them more cash (frankly who can blame them, the more cash you get that isn't yours, the better, right?) which is the same as Saskatchewan really, we just happen to be on the positive side this time due to the oil we have, but if oil is out, we get millions of dollars from the Feds...frankly I can see Alberta's point, because regardless of the economic power, they are still not respected out East, none of the West really is...So why would we want to pay their bills?

And to address the person I quoted above, what student in their right mind is going to give up a perfectly good job in Alberta that is high paying, to go back out East to live on Welfare??? (I say as a Saskatchewanian who is well aware that the best jobs available for myself, are just a little bit West of here) That doesn't even make sense! And for some unknown reason, if they actually did, there is a thing called immigration. You might have heard of this, it is a new trend hitting Canada where we get people who have the intelligence and qualifications we need to move here and work and have the best life they possibly can in Canada...We've only been doing it for the last 400 or so years though, so maybe you just haven't heard of it yet. :roll:

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Alberta threatens over equalization

[

And to address the person I quoted above, what student in their right mind is going to give up a perfectly good job in Alberta that is high paying, to go back out East to live on Welfare??? (I say as a Saskatchewanian who is well aware that the best jobs available for myself, are just a little bit West of here) That doesn't even make sense! And for some unknown reason, if they actually did, there is a thing called immigration. You might have heard of this, it is a new trend hitting Canada where we get people who have the intelligence and qualifications we need to move here and work and have the best life they possibly can in Canada...We've only been doing it for the last 400 or so years though, so maybe you just haven't heard of it yet. :roll:[/size]

You might have heard of this...it's called jobs. And yes dear, they do have them out east, it's a new trend hitting west of you. And when those jobs dry up, which they will, you'll be coming east, just like everyone else has done in the past. :roll:

 

[#juan]

I'm old enough

to remember when Alberta was a "have not" province and was receiving money from equalization payments for about nine years. I also recall a large payment to Alberta beef producers because of the mad cow problems. Now they are whining about "their" oil money. Nice.