AGW Denial, The Greatest Scam in History?

captain morgan

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Looks like you called this one correctly, Nostradamus. :-(


You know what you guys could really use to bond even more is to strike up a rousing rendition of Kumbayah!

You guys get yourselves organized in a big ole circle, hold hands and start the singing. Mentalfloss, you can be the band leader and it's your job to inspire the troops.

I'll get the purple kool-aid together and bring by the refreshments later.
 

Tonington

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Nobody wants your tobacco support group refreshments. Besides you stink like camel.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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You know what you guys could really use to bond even more is to strike up a rousing rendition of Kumbayah!

You guys get yourselves organized in a big ole circle, hold hands and start the singing. Mentalfloss, you can be the band leader and it's your job to inspire the troops.

I'll get the purple kool-aid together and bring by the refreshments later.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't have any intention to 'rally troops' or sing kumbaya. Sounds like a terrible diversion coming from someone who's completely run out of gas.

As I said before, I would love it if the skeptics were right. Why don`t you just step down and let a more informed skeptic take your place since you are obviously not able to refute the material I provided. Or, please do refute it -- but do it right instead of throwing red herrings and ad hominem attacks.
 
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captain morgan

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Really interesting comment mentalfloss, especially from one whose scientific argument is based on my having to sit through a video series doubtlessly published by a group that has a specific intent.... Make no mistake, I'm not discounting the validity of the info in the link you posted, but in all likelihood, I've heard the argument already. Regardless, I'll have a listen when time permits.

As far as suggesting that my ideal has "run out of gas", ask yourself this question; which perspective (and its most vocal adherents) have retracted fundamental components of their position; which perspective has been fraught with proven accounts of fraudulent "science" and practices among the yet-to-be-proven allegations that are still pending.

You adherence of "it's-true- just-believe-me-or-I'll-attach-an-unsavory-moniker-to-your-group" mentality is right out of a Hollywood B movie about high school... You are welcome, anytime, to provide this definitive and conclusive argument that will convert all skeptics to see the light, but until you do so, all of the name calling and poker bluffs aren't worth a rip to anyone. All that's left for you and your ilk is to act as a mutual support group and reaffirm each others' tenuous belief in the intangible and unprovable.

After reading your dramatic and theatrical "argument", I do truly believe that you ought to strike up the band and sing kumbaya, it's all you have left.
 

Bar Sinister

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Jan 17, 2010
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You know what you guys could really use to bond even more is to strike up a rousing rendition of Kumbayah!

You guys get yourselves organized in a big ole circle, hold hands and start the singing. Mentalfloss, you can be the band leader and it's your job to inspire the troops.

I'll get the purple kool-aid together and bring by the refreshments later.


I suspect I would prefer MF's company to being with a shill from big oil. How much are you being paid to promote the oil company's point of view? And please don't try to tell me that you do this on your spare time.
 

Tonington

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Regardless, I'll have a listen when time permits.

The same answer you gave me when I linked the talk by Richard Alley. It's one hour long, and he discusses how most of the pieces that were missing are now coming together very well.

So instead of watching and listening to what the newest science is adding to the knowledge, you spend time here asking questions of us. But when we point you to some place better than our own amateur understanding, you say you haven't got the time. Or you dismiss a handful of links that I gave, which together create a coherent and comprehensive argument against other potential forcings, because I used the words apparent, and associated.

Do you actually want to learn something about the world around you, or do you just come along in here to satisfy some kind of need to be argumentative?

It's your time though. It's apparent that you feel it is better managed if you argue with us than to actually go to sources where you can learn something...
 

Avro

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As far as suggesting that my ideal has "run out of gas", ask yourself this question; which perspective (and its most vocal adherents) have retracted fundamental components of their position; which perspective has been fraught with proven accounts of fraudulent "science" and practices among the yet-to-be-proven allegations that are still pending.

Retractions are part of science.

Fraudulent? Are you refferring to climategate? The one in which 5 independant investigations found no wrong doing or are you waiting for one that states what you want it to?

Plus, I hardly expect Not Really A Lord Monckton to make any retractions just Ad Hominem attacks when he is challenged as seen in my earlier posts on this thread.

Since we are on this, can you identify the published peer reviewed papers from the skeptics....thanks.
 

captain morgan

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The same answer you gave me when I linked the talk by Richard Alley. It's one hour long, and he discusses how most of the pieces that were missing are now coming together very well.


And I did listen to the R.Alley presentation, not with note-pad and pen, but in the background. However, as of yet, no one including Alley has delivered an understanding or idea that is comprehensive enough to explain the past and possibly deliver a rudimentary idea regarding opportunity to "predict" (wrong word) the future.

Further, to date, all of the arguments (video presentation or otherwise) focus on one (or a few) element and proclaim that this is the magic bullet... In this case, that bullet is anthropogenic CO2. Now, that in itself is fine as well as the research that determines that CO2 does this and forces that and therefore the domino effect is "X", but the crux of the problem is 2 fold; First, these conclusions are never firmly tied-together and second, the component is analyzed essentially in an insulated environment.

Place the above in a research environment wherein "science" doesn't yet know, let understand, the vast (and I do mean vast) number of variables at play and you can imagine that there is no opportunity for anyone to make statements about anthro CO2 with any kind of realistic confidence.



But when we point you to some place better than our own amateur understanding, you say you haven't got the time. Or you dismiss a handful of links that I gave, which together create a coherent and comprehensive argument against other potential forcings, because I used the words apparent, and associated.


I've mentioned this to you before and the obstacle still stands; I do not (in general) question the specific, individual research that you've provided, however, for me to support your conclusions demands that I adopt your scientific philosophy, adopt your set of assumptions as being suitable and make some tremendous leaps of faith. The arguments you've made are compelling if, and only if, I adopt a parallel/identical position as yourself.

Now, as we've seen, I do not maintain a parallel scientific philosophy, etc and am not able to support those contentions, however, you'll also notice that I have not forwarded an explanation/solution as I believe that there (currently) is none available.


Do you actually want to learn something about the world around you, or do you just come along in here to satisfy some kind of need to be argumentative?


Let's analyze this objectively... You state that anthro CO2 is the cause of GW and I say it's not. Sounds to me like a recipe for conflict.

In fact, I notice that Petros introduced an interesting concept into the mix, let me ask you, how has that changed your outlook? Seems to me that it is being completely ignored in terms of that impact on the issue, so perhaps it's an idea that you rethink your allegations about questioning others' interest in learning about the world around them.

Now, if you have something definitive and conclusive then please, forward it and if it makes sense, I'll adopt it. But piecing together a few individual components that are analyzed and measured in isolation is not a solid platform from which to claim full knowledge of a system as complex as teh Earth's climate.


It's your time though. It's apparent that you feel it is better managed if you argue with us than to actually go to sources where you can learn something...

Yes, it is my time. I could watch/listen to a presentation that correlates the relationship between kittens stuck in trees and the Earth warming... Doesn't mean it's true though, does it?

One of the things I find especially interesting about the above statement relates to guys like mentalfloss. I wonder what his outlook would be today had he viewed a video presentation by a guy like Tim Ball instead of the one he saw first.
 

CDNBear

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I don't imagine you go to your mechanic for heart problems, and I doubt you go to see a cardiac specialist when your engines knocking.
Actually, I would, he has a completely rebuilt yellow 68 Vette, and a race ready Honda, both he did himself.
 

captain morgan

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Retractions are part of science.


Not to the degree that the IPCC has been erasing documents as of late... Hell, the Nazis burned fewer books than the IPCC.


Fraudulent? Are you refferring to climategate? The one in which 5 independant investigations found no wrong doing or are you waiting for one that states what you want it to?


In part, but mostly the fact that the IPCC lied, exaggerated and promised that all of their policy was based on peer-reviewed studies... Then it coomes to light that the solid and concrete science that determined that the Amazon rain forest would be devastated was essentially a piece forwarded by some earth rangers at Greenpeace that was not even confirmed, let alone peer reviewed. Along with that, they supported a similar debacle with teh Himalayan glaciers and even supporting Gore's pack 'o lies.

The institutional fraud at the CRU was not unexpected.


Plus, I hardly expect Not Really A Lord Monckton to make any retractions just Ad Hominem attacks when he is challenged as seen in my earlier posts on this thread.


Those attacks are warranted (see above)


Since we are on this, can you identify the published peer reviewed papers from the skeptics....thanks.


Peer review of something that proves a negative?.. Perhaps a doctoral candidate in philosophy can help you out there.
 
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Avro

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Not to the degree that the IPCC has been erasing documents as of late... Hell, the Nazis burned fewer books than he IPCC.

Such as?


In part, but mostly the fact that the IPCC lied, exaggerated and promised that all of their policy was based on peer-reviewed studies... Then it coomes to light that the solid and concrete science that determined that the Amazon rain forest would be devastated was essentially a piece forwarded by some earth rangers at Greenpeace
that was not even confirmed. let alone peer reviewed. Along with that, they supported a similar debacle with teh Himalayan glaciers and even supporting Gore's pack 'o lies.

The institutional fraud at the CRU was not unexpected.

Still waiting for an independant investigation to cite this so called fraud.

Plus, in any scientific study I would expect flaws to be found, it's part of the proccess.

None of this changes the overall report.

Rainforest

The Hymalayans are still melting btw.




Those attacks are warranted (see above)

Did you read the exchange between Monckton and Abraham?

Goes a long way to show how pathetic the not really a Lord is.:lol:





Peer review of something that proves a negative?.. Perhaps a doctoral candidate in philosophy can help you out there.

So no published papers reviewed by peers debunking AGW?

I'd ask you to supply some published peer reviewed papers on what is forcing the planet to warm but you don't even think it's warming so I won't bother.

Have a good one.:smile:
 

Tonington

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And I did listen to the R.Alley presentation, not with note-pad and pen, but in the background. However, as of yet, no one including Alley has delivered an understanding or idea that is comprehensive enough to explain the past and possibly deliver a rudimentary idea regarding opportunity to "predict" (wrong word) the future.

His whole presentation was the relationship between carbon dioxide and climate, and all in the past. There is excellent agreement.

Further, to date, all of the arguments (video presentation or otherwise) focus on one (or a few) element and proclaim that this is the magic bullet... In this case, that bullet is anthropogenic CO2. Now, that in itself is fine as well as the research that determines that CO2 does this and forces that and therefore the domino effect is "X", but the crux of the problem is 2 fold; First, these conclusions are never firmly tied-together and second, the component is analyzed essentially in an insulated environment.

On point one, the conclusions are tied together. They are tied together because the relationships have been tested, and observed, and the signal pulled from the data.

Would you now say the same thing of nutations that Petros mentioned? There is a signal, and it's buried in a very noisy bunch of data. There is no signal showing climate influencing nutations, but there is a signal showing that nutations impact climate. We even know the mechanism.

As to the second point, how would you determine that your variable has any effect unless it is distinct from all that noise? Science works because controlling variables in experiments allows us to tease out the relationships that are there.

Again, if you think this is an issue, then you need to educate yourself further as to how the scientific method works.
 

Avro

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Why They Deny

What’s going on in climate skeptics’ deluded heads?

by Paul Dechene


Oh, you climate deniers have been on a tear lately. You’re all puffed up with self-importance. Bloated by a few victories.

Bravo, gentlemen!

Thanks to your efforts, support for climate science is sliding and the hopes that there’ll be any global action in time to slow the planet’s heating are all but lost. Good thing I’m heavily invested in hip waders.

Nice work! But I have to ask: why’d you do it?

Why do all you climate deniers risk your reputations defending positions utterly at odds with science and reason?

Much has been made of your ties to the oil and coal lobbies, but can you really be doing it just for the money?

George Marshall, the founder of the Climate Outreach and Information Network, the UK’s leading climate communications charity, doesn’t think so.

“To say these people are paid for by the oil industry is rather ignoring the point there’s a lot of environmental organizations that take money from oil companies,” says Marshall.

“The fact that people take money from oil companies does not in itself make them corrupt. There’s lots of reasons why you might want to work with corporations.”

He suspects your motivations are less venal and may be related to a kind of deranged careerism. Marshall notes that the most prominent of your kind are almost all men — men whose careers weren’t terribly noteworthy until you threw in with the adoring denialist hordes.

Alternately, some of you are men who are nearing (or at) retirement and looking for a way to stay in the game.

“George Monbiot wrote a piece in which he thinks this is related to mortality fear,” says Marshall. “But I think there is a thing that happens with men, especially as they get older. They look back on their lives and think on what they’ve achieved.

“If they are very argumentative driven, very self-willed men, you can see that for some, the appeal of going completely against the flow is very beguiling. Especially when the rewards are quite significant.

“And the status rewards are not to be sniffed at,” he says.

You can start out as a third-rate academic and by taking a stand against climate science, he says, your profile can be suddenly raised in certain well-funded circles.

“You can be in a situation of writing leaders for national newspapers, of speaking at keynote conferences, of dining with powerful and influential people,” Marshall says. “This stuff is very potent for people who in any way feel that their life has not achieved everything they’d have liked it to.”

“You get somebody like Lord Monckton for example,” says Marshall, referring to the climate “expert” the Frontier Centre for Public Policy brought to Regina in October of 2009.

“His life has been marked by a low level of achievement. His life has been one long series of disasters, actually,” Marshall says. “Not the least being a little business he ran selling a game — a puzzle — which almost pushed him to bankruptcy.

“He’s in a category I’d call egotistical, ego-driven denier. He’s a fantasist. He’s somebody who constantly fantasizes about and distorts his own life story based on what he thinks makes the best impression.

“If I was in the world of climate change denial,” Marshall says later, “I’d keep a very safe distance from Monckton because he is capable of saying such huge whoppers.”

Ah, Monckton. The battiest of a bad lot. It’s a pity that the media and public can’t see through this rogues’ gallery of failed men and aging cranks.

But Tim Kasser, a psychology professor at Knox College and author of The High Price of Materialism and Psychology and Consumer Culture, sees a psychological explanation behind the public’s willingness to listen to all this climate denial nonsense.

“The very short answer,” says Kasser, “is a lot of it has to do with identity dynamics and how people respond to evidence that conflicts with cherished parts of their identity.”

He points to several foundational assumptions of western society that leave us vulnerable to the climate deniers’ siren song, chief among them being the idea that consumerism and economic growth can solve all our problems.

“It’s clear that, as much as our government seems to be trying to tell us and business is trying to tell us we can green consume our way out of [climate change], it’s obvious that’s not the case.” says Kasser. “That spins in opposition to how we’ve been raised in our culture to believe that our worth as people depends upon how much money we make.”

Further complicating matters, says Kasser, is our desire to believe ourselves to be good people.

“Climate science suggests [people’s] behaviours are destroying the earth,” says Kasser. “If they accept that climate change is real, they also have to accept that they’re engaging in behaviours which conflict with their conception of themselves as good, caring people.”

To overcome all this psychology, Kasser believes scientists and environmental advocates are going to have change the way they communicate with the public — that is, if they’re serious about drowning out the misinformation.

Making the science even stronger isn’t going to cut it anymore.

“What we need to do is pay more attention to the emotional state that people are in when they’re hearing our data,” he continues, “and recognize that this data is scary and when people are scared they’re not more likely to listen to the data but less.”

But Kasser notes that if changing western society’s core values fails, there’s one last way in which people will ultimately be convinced that the climate is changing.

“Once Florida is under water and once we’ve got droughts threatening our food system and all the rest — eventually there comes a point where even the most die-hard identity falls to the data,” he says.

DASTARDLY DENIERS
A study out of Stanford shows that climate change contrarians account for only three per cent of the scientific community. What’s more, the expertise of those climate deniers is “vastly overshadowed” by the scientists who defend the consensus on human-caused global warming. Despite this, climate deniers loom large in the media, achieving a prominence disproportionate to their credibility. Here’s a rundown on five of the most prominent climate deniers you may come across. /Paul Dechene

Name: Tim Ball

Fame: His bio used to state he was Canada’s first climatology PhD until that was disputed in the letters section of the Calgary Herald. Ball also vociferously denies being backed by the oil industry despite the fact that most of his paycheques come from oil-industry-backed think tanks.

Game: Proponent of the global-warming-has-stopped-and-the-Earth-is-cooling school of thought, except when he is arguing that global warming will be good for Canada.

Shame: In an April talk at the University of Victoria, Ball claimed Milankovitch Cycles (which measure the Earth’s orbit and tilt) and volcanism are not included in IPCC models. In the audience, climatology grad students who, unlike Ball, actually run climate models pointed out both factors are standard parameters in IPCC models.

Name: Ian Plimer

Fame: Author of many climate-deniers’ favourite tome, Heaven and Earth. While not a climatologist himself, Plimer is on the boards of directors of three mining corporations.

Game: The Gish Gallop, a rapid-fire debating style that involves evading questions by constantly shifting topics and arguments. Named for creationist Duane Gish.

Shame: Soundly thrashed on Australian TV by Guardian science columnist George Monbiot. Monbiot showed that, in his book, Plimer was wrong about global warming ending in 1998 and about the CO2 contribution of volcanoes. Plimer’s response was to squirm, evade and ramble off on digressions.

Name: Freeman Dyson

Fame: Renowned for groundbreaking work in quantum field theory, solid state physics and nuclear engineering. Posited several famous sci-fi concepts such as the Dyson sphere and the Dyson tree.

Game: Considers himself an aging heretic and uses his credentials as a physicist to get a hearing on the climate change issue. He concedes that human activity affects the climate but believes climate models are unreliable and that the impact of human-produced CO2 is exaggerated.

Shame: While he did some work on climatology in the late 1970s, several climate scientists have politely pointed out that his current proclamations on the subject reveal he hasn’t kept up on climate research much since then.

Name: Steven Milloy

Fame: When he isn’t running the website Junkscience.com, he’s a columnist for Fox News, a paid advocate for ExxonMobil and an adjunct scholar for the Cato Institute.

Game: Either fronts or controls from the background more organizations than you can count — several of which he runs out of his own home.

Shame: Milloy’s connection to the tobacco industry was a big embarrassment for his employers at Fox. In 2006, a journalist reported that Milloy received thousands of dollars from Phillip Morris over the years. He’s also been linked to RJ Reynolds’ Project Breakthrough, a PR effort to link tobacco prevention to alcohol prohibition.

Name: Marc Morano

Fame: Runs ClimateDepot.com. Worked for Senator James Inhofe and was a roving reporter for Rush Limbaugh’s TV show. Morano made his name by leading the Swift Boat charge against John Kerry and used the lessons he learned from that media feeding frenzy to control the message on the Climategate scandal.

Game: Esquire called Morano “the turd in the punch bowl” when they described his ability to influence media coverage and use the words of climate scientists against them.

Shame: Morano has none. He’s a tireless brawler who dances away from his every misstep and never misses an opportunity for a low blow against an opponent. Morano’s the dirtiest fighter in the climate denier gang. Do not underestimate.
 

Tonington

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Like a scaled experiment that can be replicated?

If you think that controlled experiments are a problem, you need to educate yourself on how the scientific method works.

If you like, I can explain to you how we do experiments at work. Governments require proof that our vaccines are safe and effective before they grant us approval to sell them in their jurisdiction. We have to be able to show that we can infect the fish (disease challenge model), that the biokinetics of our vaccine are retained over time, that our vaccines won't harm the fish or the environment, that we can prevent the spread of disease, and to quantify the range of protection, from minimum dose, to maximum effective dose.

All of this requires controlled experiments. The sea cage where our target customers fish reside is not a controlled environment. Our vaccines still work. In fact we have one of the few working DNA vaccines in the world.

And, these are all done in successive experiments. Not all at the same time. Putting together many related experiments gives you context, and you can describe a system in that way, without knowing every single detail with precision.

Having such detail is unlikely to ever be achieved, and would be an inefficient use of resources if one could.
 

captain morgan

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All of this requires controlled experiments. The sea cage where our target customers fish reside is not a controlled environment. Our vaccines still work. In fact we have one of the few working DNA vaccines in the world.

And, these are all done in successive experiments. Not all at the same time. Putting together many related experiments gives you context, and you can describe a system in that way, without knowing every single detail with precision.

Having such detail is unlikely to ever be achieved, and would be an inefficient use of resources if one could.



I look forward to reading/learning about the (relatively) scaled and replicable experiments that will test the AGW theory.

Why They Deny


I'll give you a hint... Seeing reality for what it really is doesn't qualify as denying anything, it's recognizing that anthro CO2 is not the cause of GW.


Oh, you climate deniers have been on a tear lately. You’re all puffed up with self-importance. Bloated by a few victories.

Bravo, gentlemen!


They aren't really victories Avro; the eco-alarmist crowd is self destructing, collapsing under the weight of the many, many frauds and scams that have been uncovered.
 

Avro

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I'll give you a hint... Seeing reality for what it really is doesn't qualify as denying anything, it's recognizing that anthro CO2 is not the cause of GW.

Tuthers, birthers, JFKer's, area 51 nutters, etc etc etc use the very same argument you just did....like the article suggests, it's either psychological or delusions of grandeur.

In the end though, when it comes to science you guys just don't have a leg to stand on yet you keep regurgitating the same tired arguments that don't hold up.


They aren't really victories Avro; the eco-alarmist crowd is self destructing, collapsing under the weight of the many, many frauds and scams that have been uncovered.

Self destructing?

I see no evidence of this self destruction or climatologists fleeing to the other side. What I see, as presented in the article, is a few failures making a name for themselves by denying AGW and getting debunked over and over again.

They can't even be honest about their titles or education.:roll:

Even you avoid the most basic questions from me and by trade I'm just a lowly janitor.

Cheers.:smile: