Afghanistan - Should it have ever been called a country?

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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KABUL – A new Afghan law makes it legal for men to rape their wives, human rights groups and some Afghan lawmakers said Thursday, accusing President Hamid Karzai of signing the legislation to bolster his re-election prospects. Critics worry the legislation undermines hard-won rights for women enacted after the fall of the Taliban's strict Islamist regime.
The law — which some lawmakers say was never debated in parliament — is intended to regulate family life inside Afghanistan's Shiite community, which makes up about 20 percent of this country of 30 million people. The law does not affect Afghan Sunnis.
One of the most controversial articles stipulates the wife "is bound to preen for her husband as and when he desires."

Canada expresses outrage over Afghan women's law

This pretty much sums it up. :angryfire:
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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KABUL – A new Afghan law makes it legal for men to rape their wives, human rights groups and some Afghan lawmakers said Thursday, accusing President Hamid Karzai of signing the legislation to bolster his re-election prospects. Critics worry the legislation undermines hard-won rights for women enacted after the fall of the Taliban's strict Islamist regime.
The law — which some lawmakers say was never debated in parliament — is intended to regulate family life inside Afghanistan's Shiite community, which makes up about 20 percent of this country of 30 million people. The law does not affect Afghan Sunnis.
One of the most controversial articles stipulates the wife "is bound to preen for her husband as and when he desires."

Canada expresses outrage over Afghan women's law

This pretty much sums it up. :angryfire:

'To bolster his re-election prospects.'

It wold seem democracy is not what it's cutout to be. Many in the West erroneously perceive democracy as the panacea for every ill in society, when in fact it is nothing more than a reflection of the will of the majority, for better of for worse.

Now I thought we'd originally gone to Afghanistan to capture Bin Laden. But hey, what's in a lie if it gets us what we want, which was obviosly nation-building.

But now, we find ourselves in a bind. Once we'd got bored with the Bin Laden story, we'd shifted to fighting for democracy. Now, Canadian politicians are reeling from this and proclaiming that they're there to fight for equality of the sexes. Clearly this legislation suggests that Afghan politicians believe this law to be a vote-getter, ad thus democratic. So now we find ourselves in a bind, having to decide whether to fight for democracy or justice? The two are now at odds and putting our own worldview into question.

So now the question is, if democracy conflicts with justice, which ought we to sacrifice, and which defend? For a society that worships democracy, yet still concedes the importance of justice, it's a tough decision to make. But if we have any sense of justice, we'll acknowledge that democracy is a man-made and culture-laden institution that does not always reflect justice and which is not always appropriate for all societies. Let's just look at Afghanistan, where a democratic regime woud be more extremist than the government they have now. Let's consider China, where some of the population is more eager tofight Taiwan than the government is.

We might soon find ourselves at a cross-roads in our international diplomacy, having to acknowledge that democracy is a reflection not necessarily of justice, but rather, for good or ill, the will of the people, and must always take second-place to justice. Such a shift would have implications for our relationships with governments from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

In fact, such a shift could have implications in our own democracy, whereby the will of the people could be recognized as not always being just, sometimes merely promoting the interests of Canada's majority ethnic communities at the expense of smaller somes, irrespective of the justice.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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We don't worship democracy without justice. No one I know in Canada would defend such a system. Like it or not, our society thinks women should have the right to not be raped even by their husbands. If Afghanis don't think that, they're at odds with us. What we do about that is another question altogether.
 

Machjo

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We don't worship democracy without justice. No one I know in Canada would defend such a system. Like it or not, our society thinks women should have the right to not be raped even by their husbands. If Afghanis don't think that, they're at odds with us. What we do about that is another question altogether.

1. There are plenty of examples in Western society itself of the will of the majority degenerating into mob rule. To name just a few examples:

- Majority ndifference to the forced residential school system in Canada.

- The forced internment of Japanese Canadians in WWII, in spite of assurances by the Canadian military that they were not a threat, but pushed by popular demand.

- Bill 101

- Favouritist policies in Ontario towards Catholic education which do not apply to any other religion.

And the list goes on. Indeed mob-rule is a common manifestation of democracy in the West, even in Canada itself.

I should also add that in Canada itself I've met at women who'd defended the idea that women should not be allowed to work so as to give more jobs to men so they could feed their families. These were not Muslims, but evangelical Christians. Granted not all evangelicals think this way, but just to say that they do exist even if they're in a minority.

I've also met Canadian women actively and passionately defending the right of a man to marry more than one wife, viewing it as a legitimate source of social welfare for single mothers for example. They did profess Islam, and again they might very well have been a minority in their community. But again, like above, this indicates that they do exist.

Our system if far from perfect, yet when we go abroad to try to impose democracy, how can we not expect majority rule to degenerate into mob rule when that often happens in our own nation again and again, in history and today?
 

Machjo

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We have likewise managed to wipe out our oglication to fulfil binding agreements with First Nations communities in Canada by the very mob-rule principle mentioned above (i.e. that the will of the majority can trum the necessity of good faith in all agreements).
 

Machjo

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Now as for no one in Canada defendig such a system:

-The defenders of Bill 101.
-The defenders of a special status for Catholic schools in Ontario paid for by all taxpayers but not applying to other religions.

Just two examples here, but that already adds up to lots of Canadians in Canada's two most populous provinces.

Then we can also add those who believe that majority rule can override any historial agreement with the natives.

So indeed we have alot of Canadians who legitimize mob-rule in the guize of democracy.
 

Machjo

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Oh yes, and who is 'Our society'? Does it include those women (and I'd imagine even more men) who believe that women should not be allowed to work, or that a man should be allowed to have more than one wife?

One of the women I'd who'd defended the right of a man to marry more than one wife was not even of Arab descent. Whe was a conver to Islam!

Do they all count as part of 'Our society'?
 

tracy

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1.- Bill 101

- Favouritist policies in Ontario towards Catholic education which do not apply to any other religion.

Our system if far from perfect, yet when we go abroad to try to impose democracy, how can we not expect majority rule to degenerate into mob rule when that often happens in our own nation again and again, in history and today?


Our system is far from perfect, but what's better: our system or theirs? I don't care if this makes me sound ethnocentric, Canada is better than a system where women have no rights. Bill 101 and the Ontario school policies are the only modern examples you have for mob rule in Canada. If that's the worst we have, that's still pretty good. Our laws and the Charter defend minority rights. The majority of Canadians could feel that women shouldn't work and it wouldn't matter. They could feel women shouldn't drive and it wouldn't matter. They could feel women were allowed to be beaten by their husbands and it wouldn't matter. The law says otherwise. That's how you stop democracy from turning into mob rule. It's worked pretty well.
 

Machjo

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I typed Afghanistan above when I met Pakistan, sorry. So I'll repeat it here.
Pakistan would be more extremist if it were under a more democratic institution. Many Chinese feel their government doesn't go far enough on Taiwan. etc.

In such cases, do we defend democracy, or an alternative?

Let's remember that Iran is partially democratic too. In fact, it's legislative branch is about as democratic as ours, though granted we can't say the same about their executive branch which is essentially governed by theologians.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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Oh yes, and who is 'Our society'? Does it include those women (and I'd imagine even more men) who believe that women should not be allowed to work, or that a man should be allowed to have more than one wife?

One of the women I'd who'd defended the right of a man to marry more than one wife was not even of Arab descent. Whe was a conver to Islam!

Do they all count as part of 'Our society'?

I should not have implied Canadian society held no members with opposing viewpoints. The reality however is that mainstream Canadian society has common values. One of them is equality for women. It isn't always manifested perfectly, but it's the ideal nonetheless.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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I typed Afghanistan above when I met Pakistan, sorry. So I'll repeat it here.
Pakistan would be more extremist if it were under a more democratic institution. Many Chinese feel their government doesn't go far enough on Taiwan. etc.

In such cases, do we defend democracy, or an alternative?

Let's remember that Iran is partially democratic too. In fact, it's legislative branch is about as democratic as ours, though granted we can't say the same about their executive branch which is essentially governed by theologians.

In such cases, WE aren't going to do much. Canada has very little influence in those places. We should be realistic.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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I should not have implied Canadian society held no members with opposing viewpoints. The reality however is that mainstream Canadian society has common values. One of them is equality for women. It isn't always manifested perfectly, but it's the ideal nonetheless.

That's fine. But why do we limit ourselves to that? In Ontario, a commonly held value is the special recognition of the validity of public funding for a religious educational institution (i.e. Catholic) to the exclusion of all others. If that should happen in another part of the world, we'd be howling.

Another commonly held value aong Canadians is that we are not bound by historical agreements with the First Nations because they are a conquered people. Yet we fume at China's treatment of Tibetans.

Equality of the sexes, equality of religions, respect for agreements in good faith no matter how old, all fall in the same category. They are all issues of justice that go beyond the will of the majority. Yet in Canada, the will of the majority has degenerated into mob-rule on the religious front in Ontario, the linguistic front in Quebec, and the ethnic front across Canada. It is no different from the rule of the majority degenerating ito mob-rule in Afghanistan.

Why are we so critical of mob-rule in Afghanistan yet ignore it in our own backyard just because it takes on a different form?
 

Machjo

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In such cases, WE aren't going to do much. Canada has very little influence in those places. We should be realistic.

And certainly we can't do much in Afghanistan either. If we can't defend the rights of linguistic minorities in Quebec, religious equality in educational funding in Ontario, and fulflment of historical agreements with the First Nations across Canada, how can we believe that we can prevent the rule of the majority from degenerating into a dictatorship of the majority in Afghanistan when we can't even prevent the same in Canada?
 

tracy

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Yes, I already agreed with you that we aren't perfect Machjo. However, to compare our society to Afghanistan when it comes to rights is ludicrous. I used to fall more into your camp Machjo. I thought people who weren't perfect had no right to criticize. I don't feel that way anymore because then no one would ever be able to criticize anything. At some point, I'm willing to say the obvious truth that funding Catholic schools in Ontario IS NOT morally equivalent to allowing rape. It doesn't make funding Catholic schools right, it just acknowledges that there is a hierarchy of evil things. Making laws legalizing spousal rape is more evil.
 

tracy

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And certainly we can't do much in Afghanistan either.?

I don't think we'll change everything, but we certainly have more influence there thanks to our military presence. Afghanistan has been changed by our and other countries' outside influence over the last few years.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Yes, I already agreed with you that we aren't perfect Machjo. However, to compare our society to Afghanistan when it comes to rights is ludicrous. I used to fall more into your camp Machjo. I thought people who weren't perfect had no right to criticize. I don't feel that way anymore because then no one would ever be able to criticize anything. At some point, I'm willing to say the obvious truth that funding Catholic schools in Ontario IS NOT morally equivalent to allowing rape. It doesn't make funding Catholic schools right, it just acknowledges that there is a hierarchy of evil things. Making laws legalizing spousal rape is more evil.

I can agree with you on that. Degree of evil aside, however, it is still the same principle: The majority trumps the rights of the minority in the name of democracy. And by definition, let's make no mistake about it, it is in fact democracy, the will of the majority, no matter how unjust it might be.

And so this still leaves us with the question of what it is exactly that we are trying to achieve there. If it is democracy, we may very well have achieved it; as we can see, Karzai is already responding 'positively' to the will of the people by defending the right of men to rape their wives. Please understand that I'm using the term 'positively' here not in the sense that I agree that a man should be allowed to rape his wife, but rather in the sence that he is reponding to the will of the majority within the dynamics of a democratic system as we woud define it. He is responding to the will of the majority as per the rules of democracy as we woud want him to, though we might be discusted with what the rule fo the majority really is.

But then, like in Canada, does the minority have the right to usurp democracy in the name of jusice?

Most Quebecers would insist that the will of the majority must prevail in Quebec with regards to Bill 101, and they'd even define justice as the will of the majority (i.e. if it is the will of the majority, then it is just). We'd find the smae attitude in ontario with regards religious schools, and in Canada with regards to First Nations treaties. So, do we trump democracy in favour of justice in Afghanistan, or do we trump justice in faour of democracy? A decision must be made, otherwise the precise objective of our troops isn't clear anymore. Are they there to defend a ust system, or a democratic system. If democratic, then we should support Karzai in this decision. If just, then we should go the way of Pakistan and support a dictatorship supportive of our own Western values.

Should we oppose democracy in Afghanistan in favour of justice, then that is an admission fo failure of the democratic system, leaving us questioning whether in fact deocracy is indeed the best system of government, especially with regards to its tendency towards mob rule. Should we defend the Canadian democratic system then, or trump it and fight to usurp the privileged positions of the French-speakers in Quebec, Catholics in Ontario, and Anglo-Saxons in Canada?

Which is it. Now our misison in Afghanistan is pretty murky, and puts the moral validity of democracy itself into question.
 

Machjo

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I don't think we'll change everything, but we certainly have more influence there thanks to our military presence. Afghanistan has been changed by our and other countries' outside influence over the last few years.

Military presence? So we will terrorize the people into submission? Not very democratic, is it? So what exactly are we defending now? We were there to get Bin Laden, then democracy, and now women's rights. It would seem to me that we are planning to take a primitive society and make it in our Godly image overnight. So essentially we're trying to create a colony but just can't admit it, so instead we keep changing our misison from Bin Laden to democracy and now women's equality. What next? Who are we to dictate to them when we are committing injustices within our own borders? Sure we can criticize Afghanistan as individuals. But have a military backed by a government that has ignored First Nations' land claims fighting for justice in Afghanistan? Strange that.
 

tracy

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Military presence? So we will terrorize the people into submission? Not very democratic, is it? So what exactly are we defending now? We were there to get Bin Laden, then democracy, and now women's rights. It would seem to me that we are planning to take a primitive society and make it in our Godly image overnight. So essentially we're trying to create a colony but just can't admit it, so instead we keep changing our misison from Bin Laden to democracy and now women's equality. What next? Who are we to dictate to them when we are committing injustices within our own borders? Sure we can criticize Afghanistan as individuals. But have a military backed by a government that has ignored First Nations' land claims fighting for justice in Afghanistan? Strange that.

I don't believe I ever suggested terrorizing anybody into submission (that would be very similar to the situation in which married women there will soon find themselves and I'm clearly against that). I don't know what it is about these forums... Maybe I'm just really bad at expressing myself because people often seem to read things into my posts that I never intended.:-?

I meant that with our military there already we have a stronger relationship with their government. Our diplomacy with Karzai would seem to hold more meaning than with a head of state in another country since he still seems to want us there.