Abortion

[peapod]

Short Lunch...but very enjoyable

Pea, quite bringing up the "butcher shops in the back alley"
Sure I can do that :

But I am still waiting for you to tell me what the anti choice people were offering the women and fetus for choice before abortion became a choice for them.....They were having abortions in the tacky way I mentioned above...So please tell me what the anti choice was offering at this time. ?? Did it exist? please answer and if so provide documention. Are you going to do that?

Jerry,

In regards to this statement.
Most abortions occur between 12 and 15 weeks, Maybe I should post some pics.

I will lodge my request with andem that you not be allowed to post your pictures. I suggest that anyone else offended by this tatic do the same.

 

[Cosmo]

Tibear ... again ... when you require an abortion, I will listen to your arguments. Until then, they carry no weight with me. How do you justify your obvious desire to prevent women you don't even know from making such a personal choice??

Sure, men play a part in pregnancy but it is the woman who ultimately needs to make the choice. Ever hear the difference between commitment and involvement? Ham and eggs ... the pig is committed, the chicken involved. Kinda like pregnancy.

This is not directed at fathers of planned families. Abortions are not generally part of that scenario. Abortions nearly always are about women who are not in a position to properly raise a child.

Personally, I think any woman who has the courage to actually go through with a pregnancy and give a child up for adoption is amazing. That kind of strength of character and selflessness is beyond honourable. Unfortunately not everyone has that strength.

Would abortion cause regrets? Of course. So would giving up a baby for adoption. So do a host of other life experiences. All part of the human condition.

 

[Girl82]

When in Pregnancy are Abortions Performed?
In 1993, 92% of abortion in Canada took place in the first trimester of pregnancy.

Most abortions are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, called the first trimester. About 8% of abortions take place in the second trimester of pregnancy, usually because the pregnancy was not diagnosed earlier, or abortion services were not available, or the pregnancy has become unhealthy or unmanageable. This has come down from 21% in 1974. Second trimester abortions are more frequent among women who are teenaged, single, and pregnant for the first time.

An embryo or fetus grows and becomes more physically developed with each week that passes. (See Fact Sheet: 'Abortion and Prenatal Development'). Scientific evidence indicates that at the stage of pregnancy at which abortions in Canada are customarily performed, the embryo or fetus has no awareness (including no awareness of pain). Sometime after 20 weeks' gestation, the fetus develops cognitive awareness or "brain life".

 

[tibear]

Pea,

Do you even read my posts???? I've posted a couple of websites which show that religious organizations had homes for unwed mothers well into the 1800's. Before any government programs existed for these woman. What other services would you like pro-life organizations to provide but shelter, food, education and most importantly love.

 

[Girl82]

When in Pregnancy are Abortions Performed?
In 1993, 92% of abortion in Canada took place in the first trimester of pregnancy.

Most abortions are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, called the first trimester. About 8% of abortions take place in the second trimester of pregnancy, usually because the pregnancy was not diagnosed earlier, or abortion services were not available, or the pregnancy has become unhealthy or unmanageable. This has come down from 21% in 1974. Second trimester abortions are more frequent among women who are teenaged, single, and pregnant for the first time.

An embryo or fetus grows and becomes more physically developed with each week that passes. (See Fact Sheet: 'Abortion and Prenatal Development'). Scientific evidence indicates that at the stage of pregnancy at which abortions in Canada are customarily performed, the embryo or fetus has no awareness (including no awareness of pain). Sometime after 20 weeks' gestation, the fetus develops cognitive awareness or "brain life".

I think this could be compared to brain damaged people or even old people who are not even 'ALIVE'.

 

[tibear]

Cosmo,

Using your condition regarding the fact that I've never required an abortion do I don't have the right to voice my opinion. Could I then say that since you've never fought in a war they you don't have any right to talk about wars???? Kind of a stupid condition isn't it.

As for the woman who give their child up for adoption, I agree it is the ultimate show of love. But isn't this what we should be striving for.

I like to think of abortion like a child's education. We force every child to get an education regardless of whether they want it or not. We don't have the right to say, "I'm not smart enough so I'm out of here after grade 2." Is school easy, no. For some children school is very painful and yet we still force them to continue. Why? Because we know it's best for everyone involved. Best for the child because their future relies on their education and best for society because the chances of a person being able to "pull their weight" in society is increased with education. Some children are teased and bullied mercilessly at school, we don't allow them to quit. Instead we try to help correct the problems the child is encountering.

Couldn't all of these be "tied" to a pregnancy scenario? Instead of killing the child, it is in the best interests of the child and mother that the child lives. No post abortion regret or physical problems for the mother and life for the baby. Instead of allowing the mother to "quit" shouldn't we have programs helping them to overcome the "teasing and bullying" that they may encounter during their pregnancy??

Lets look at the situation with loving eyes instead of self-centeredness.

 

[peapod]

Yes I did look at them tibear...they are bias and you know what I mean by that. I am asking you if the right to life organization existed before women had a choice...Did it exist???? Women were having abortions, illegal ones of course, so why does the RLT exist now that a women has a choice and it did not exist when women were having illegal abortions??

Please show me that the RLT existed before women had a choice.

 

[tibear]

Girl82,

Here are some stats I've found regarding abortion in the states: http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/gestation.asp

As for the development of the fetus, here is couple of websites that shows that the heart beats at 6 weeks and and the brain is fully developed at 12 weeks and that the child feels pain at 12 weeks:http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml
http://babies.sutterhealth.org/babygrowth/fetaldev/
Make Way for Baby

I do agree with you that there is alot of similarity between fetuses and say people on life-support machines. Does this mean that we have the right to "abort" them??

edited to fix side scroll

 

[tibear]

Pea,

Your question doesn't make any sense.

Did MADD(Mother's Against Drunk Driving) exist before there were cars?? Does that make any sense??

But just so you know, the pro-life movement did exist before the abortion issue. It fought things like capital punishment. However as anti-life issues arise they begin to include those areas into their movement.

Similar to the Anti-Child Pornography, first started with pictures then included movies and websites. As an issue grows so does the movement.

You ask for sites that show what the pro-life side was doing for the woman when abortion was illegal. So I did. Because I did you claim that the websites are "biased". How is a website that states what they've done for these women and when they started biased?? It is fact.

Some of your arguements really make me wonder. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Twila]

I do agree with you that there is alot of similarity between fetuses and say people on life-support machines. Does this mean that we have the right to "abort" them??

Do you mean an ethical right or a legal right? Currently, the family is allowed to have a person on life support removed from the life support system. It could be considered mercy killing.

 

[zenfisher]

Re: RE: Abortion

Zen,

So your talking out both sides of your mouth. If it is the minority telling the majority then it is wrong because we are a democracy, however if it is a majority telling the minority then the majority could be wrong and leading the minority down the wrong path. Interesting logic.

Show one spot on this entire thread...no..this entire site where I have ever implied the minority should be telling the majority what to do.

We live in a democracy...the majority rules.

 

[Girl82]

Point of the matter, even if things are banned or made illegal(Say drugs) people still do it, get it, illegally. Abortion will be the same. If they can't do it legally, they'll do it illegally. It'll be disgusting.

 

[peapod]

Well I mean this tibear.

I find it kind of a hypocrisy that when abortion was illegal and was killing pregnant women, there was no right to life organization, but as soon as a women could have a legal one than we had RTL.

I know I have weird ideas tibear...but surely you can see why I find this a hypocrisy.

 

[zenfisher]

Pea, quit bringing up the "butcher shops in the back alley", I've already showed the evidence that more woman die today as a result of abortions, then ever died from these "butchershops". So using your arguement, we should outlaw abortions today because we would actually be saving more woman's lives without abortion than with it.

How can you prove that stat ? If abortions were illegal before hand...how can you claim to provide a reliable stat ? What of sympathetic coroner's who would spare a families feelings? What of ones that committed suicide because they felt they had no choice? Were these situations counted in your "statistics" Is this on a percapita basis? Because there are just a few more people on this planet since it has been legalized.

 

[whicker]

As stated by Zen: "We live in a democracy...the majority rules."
Sorry, don't agree. When the minority makes more noise than the quiet majority, they win.

 

[Girl82]

As stated by Zen: "We live in a democracy...the majority rules."
Sorry, don't agree. When the minority makes more noise than the quiet majority, they win.

Dreaming. Although there are times the minority is definitely right and do get what they want need(Look at black slaves, women, gays) most of the time majority rules. It sucks. But it's life.

 

[Reverend Blair]

A working democracy has ways of recognizing minorities and mechanisms for ensuring they receive the same treatment as everybody else though.

 

[Twila]

How come women are considered minorities when there are more of us then men?

 

[Reverend Blair]

'cause we treated you like dirt for so long that we naturally lump you in with all the other people we treated like dirt for so long.

 

[zenfisher]

As stated by Zen: "We live in a democracy...the majority rules."
Sorry, don't agree. When the minority makes more noise than the quiet majority, they win.

If the majority remains to be silent on an issue and doesn't vote...you are right Whicker. Often a minority concept can be brought into being. That is why is is important to vote. Whether it be by ballot on wallet.

The last US election is a prime example of that. a little over a third for Bush, A little under a third for Kerry...and a third well, they're no shows...but isn't that a vote too.