A signal of progress?

[moghrabi]

Just the facts.

Right of return is for the Pals who left Israel into Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They are called refugees in those countries. There is a UN resolution for their return. You are confusing the people in Israel with the people outside altogether.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Do you think the Right of Return is realistic moghrabi?

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

I do respect what you are saying. But you misunderstood what I am saying.

The Peace Process calls for the creation of a state called Palestine which is made of Gaza strip and West Bank. I am not saying that the Israeli cease to exist but give them the land ceased in 1967 to create their own country.

And yet you say they cannot agree to that without right of return. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but right of return means people currently in Judea and Somaria and Gaza or wherever they may be return to Israel proper, correct? If that's correct then what the peace process calls for as you describe above has been offered to the Palestinians. You explained to me that it was rejected on the issue of right of return. I am very confused.

As for the average Pal living in Israel, you are saying they have a better standard of living than anyone in the ME.

No, I'm saying I've heard that to be the case. If it's not so then it's not so. <shrug>

Why don't you look a bit further and tell me why the settlers are not going to leave the illegal settlements that belong to the Pals. Don't they want all of the land?

The settler's can want whatever they want, they aren't making the decisions. They are being forced to leave Gaza if I'm not mistaken. If Judea and Somaria and Gaza become a Palestinian state then the settlers will choose between leaving or living in Palestine under Palestinian rule. What's the big deal, there are over a million Arabs in Israel, will they all be forced to move to Palestine when a state is formed? I doubt it. Why are a few Jewish settlers in Palestine so offensive?

Either way, the issue of the settler's has no bearing on the original point, that the PA doesn't care about a state, except as a step towards the annihlation of Israel. Just because there are zionists who are equally aggressive and misguided doesn't change that.

I'll give you a very very brief history.

After the war of 1967, A UN resolution was adopted stating that Israel must return all occupied land (Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank, and Sinai desert) to Arabs in return for peace. The West Bank and Gaza will be the future home for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. Pals who ran away from the 1948 war have the right to return to their home land.

Sinai desert was returned to Egypt under the camp David accord in 1978. The Golan Heights still a bargaining chip to make peace with Syria. So we are left with the future Palestinian homeland (the Gaza stripe and the West Bank.

This is what I am talking about.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

Just the facts.

Right of return is for the Pals who left Israel into Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They are called refugees in those countries. There is a UN resolution for their return. You are confusing the people in Israel with the people outside altogether.

So, by return then, you mean return to West Bank and Gaza?

 

[moghrabi]

Why not. These people have all the right to return to their home land. Israel is inviting Russian Jews and Europeans to occupy the settlements. Why then not give it to their proper owner.

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

Just the facts.

Right of return is for the Pals who left Israel into Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. They are called refugees in those countries. There is a UN resolution for their return. You are confusing the people in Israel with the people outside altogether.

So, by return then, you mean return to West Bank and Gaza?

Well they have to. It will be a suicide for Israel to let them into Israel Proper. Hoever compensation is in order.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

And what if the Israelis give as counterclaim that Arab countries where Jews were forced to leave after 1948 (and also in other cases after 1967) should also respect the Right of Return, or at least, compensate for all what has been destroyed or compensated?

 

[moghrabi]

I challenge anyone to prove that the Jews were forced out from any Arab countries. They started immigrating to Israel for a better life. This is why they have not asked to return. Also, there are many Jews living in Arab countries. In Iran, they have representative in the Parliament as in Lebanon.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

You've got to be kidding right? I have spend a total of, well lets just say a lot of hours reading about Arab Jews who left their country after 1948, or 1967, and lets just say that yes, a lot of them left for a better life, but a lot of them had no other choice because life had become unbearable. Israel did welcome them yes, because such an influx could strenghten the new state of Israel (although the secular Ashkenazim establishment was not very keen on the religious Sefardic and Oriental immigrants). But a lot of these immigrant waves were preceded by pogroms - in countries like Iraq and Yemen. Property was confiscated on a large scale, or destroyed. The number of Jews who live in the Arab countries nowadays is just a small part of what it used to be. Only Iran and Morocco have a considerably large Jewish community, around 25,000 persons each. However, other communities have totally vanished. In the 1940's, Iraq had a Jewish community of approximately 140,000; after the American invasions, the last ones were airlifted to Israel. I do not claim however that all Arab countries are hostile to its Jewish inhabitants; but then again, there are only few Jews left.

 

[moghrabi]

I am not kidding. Some Jews might habe been harrased during the war but there is no evidence that they were asked to leave or even forced to leave. They were inticed by Israel to become a citizen in the Promised Land
Knowing some Jews, they will make the case bigger and claim that they have been harrased. If this is the case, why don't they ask to come back? They have the right to.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

moghrabi, I recommend you read some literature about this. I do not deny the fact that Israel used the situation in such a way that most of the Jewish immigrants opted Israel as a good alternative (except for Algeria, Morocco and Tunesia, where a lot of Jews left for France and not Israel, and Libya, where a lot of Jews left for Italy and not Israel). However, what is your opinion about the following article: http://www.dangoor.com/74016.html ?

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Jews From Arab Lands Claim Material Losses
http://bnaibrith.org/pubs/bnaibrith/2003_sum_worldsection.cfm?world=2

By the way, just to make one thing straight: I do not think that Israel can use these happenings when they negotiate about the Right of Return or a future Palestinian State? What I want to point out is the fact that I can understand that certain Arab Jews, whether they are in Israel, the US, France or Italy, feel they can claim compensation for all they've lost after the creation of the State of Israel in the countries where they came from (Arab countries in this case) when the Palestinian refugees claim compensation for their removal in 1948. There are in fact a lot of Arab Jews who blame Zionism for what happened to them in the aftermath of the creation of Israel (and sometimes before that), more than they blame certain Arab governments from that time.

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

moghrabi, I recommend you read some literature about this. I do not deny the fact that Israel used the situation in such a way that most of the Jewish immigrants opted Israel as a good alternative (except for Algeria, Morocco and Tunesia, where a lot of Jews left for France and not Israel, and Libya, where a lot of Jews left for Italy and not Israel). However, what is your opinion about the following article: http://www.dangoor.com/74016.html ?

You have no idea who much I read about the subject. But let me put it. My sources are not very acceptable in the western media. They call it Arab Trash. The Literature in the west is based on how the west views the whole thing.

 

[moghrabi]

The Pal Refugees

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

Right of Return:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

The Palestine Right to Return Movement

http://www.al-awda.org/

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

moghrabi, I do not deny the fact that there are millions of Palestinian refugees. I do not think these refugees left nowadays Israel "willingly", like some pro-Israeli sources have stated. I do not deny that. What I wonder, however, is that, although the Palestinian refugees have a UN Resolution on their side (194), how would this work in reality? Do you think that if Palestinian refugees and their offspring turn back to the places they had to leave in 1948, this will not cause even more trouble?

 

[moghrabi]

What do you do with them. They have the right of return. They want to return. They could cause massive rioting and maybe civil wars in the hosting countries if not returned to their homeland. Some might stay back if they feel they are OK as a refugee, but most want to come back.

As for causing more trouble, yes it will. But Israel has to deal with it. Israel ignored this problem and the UN resolution for the longest time.

To simplify, There will be no such peace until the rights of the refugees is taken care of.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

And you think there will be peace when 3 million Palestinian refugees who have good reason to hate the country of Israel, return to that very same country?

 

[moghrabi]

I did not say there will be peace. All I said is they have the right of return. This is why Arafat could not accept the camp david deal from clinton. He would have been killed in a few days. It is the will of the people inside and outside Israel to have the refugee problem solved.

For my personal opinion. I will never see peace between Arabs and Israel. They are too suspecius of each other and the hate is too deep.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Look, see, we don't think differently. I do not deny the Right of Return, just like you. I would love to see the refugee problem solved. But there will not be peace.

 

[moghrabi]

That's what I fear. If you have a solution to this problem, we can present it to the UN and maybe we win the Noble peace prize. LOL