`A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi...

[wallyj]

OMG,you agree with me!!!! wow. Oil will be very important to whichever tribe comes out on top after this nightmare. I don't believe the iraqi's have much else to build an economy. Unfortunately until they learn that life is more important than religious doctrine they will be doomed to repeat thier errors over and over.

 

[Phil B]

PhilB

Could you provide us with some examples of how the actions of the Russian's in those nations paralleled Shock and Awe?

Where is the five years of war that followed their mistake?

Mikey

My original post pointed out that only one was invaded - the other allegedly had interference (poisoning) with a presidential candidate technically opposed to Russia

The hostilities are ongoing since the start of the second chechen war in 1999 so by my count that makes 8 years - war/security issues/hostilities it depends on your stance which you use I guess.

 

[Minority Observer84]

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

Well, apparently shooting at someone shooting at you is wrong. If that is you view its defensible, there is never an excuse for killing.

In which case why are you whining? What could you do to stop this from going on? Perhaps I'll wander over and shoot at you, perhaps torture you, knowing you wouldn't support anyone stopping me..they would have to kill me to do it.

Its an odd view to fight against nature and self defence, and civilization. I mean, You must not support having police either. They shoot people who open fire on people too. I mean, supporting total anarchy is an odd view if you actually don't like people dying. But thats your view.


Of course more likely, you've just lead a sheltered life and like to look down on people on the internet.


But seriously, if you refuse to kill someone who shoots at you, how do you plan to send these people to jail? They have guns, and they sure as hell aren't going to wander off to jail for the rest of their life because they engaged in self defence, all because you tell them to and threaten to sign a petition. I wouldn't.

Are you refering to me ?
Because if you are talking about me then it's not a realistic argument , to compare invading troops to police is down right unintelligent . A better comparison would be if some German cop decides that our laws concerning medicinal drug use are wrong , said German police officer gets on a plane flies to someone's house in Ontario and tries to arrest them , If that guy using drugs legally in his house is you and you had a gun would you not defend yourself from aggression ? Assume this German stands outside your door and starts lobing grenades inside , He's killing your gf , dog , sister and everyone else in the house with you even though he's only there for you .
They Should not be there in the first place! and you are actually saying that that Iraqis resisting this American aggression are to blame for their own deaths ?
Iraqis get beat on , abused , terrorized and arrested without charge processing or evidence so yeah compared to them i lead a pretty dam sheltered life so **** me for giving a dam about their suffering i guess you can only show empathy to a rape victim if you've been raped yourself , i guess i shouldn't care about anyone suffering because i myself am not personally being abused .Ideas like that are how police states are born .

 

[wallyj]

There were no death squads or any form of terrorism in Iraq until Bush invaded and appointed John Negroponte as ambassador.

Tell that to the families of the 180,000 Kurds who were killed by saddam. Are you really that blinded by your hatred of Bush? Go watch a stoning or a beheading and then tell us all how peaceful Iraq used to be. The 250 people killed last weekend were killed by Iraqi's,Bush did not make a man strap explosives to himself to kill others. For every civilian killed by U.S. troops,close to 120 civilians are killed by the religion of peace. Why do I bother.

 

[wallyj]

Don't know why that happened,but gopher you are so wrong. You are so blinded by your neurotic hatred of Bush et al,that you have become unhinged. Time to give up on the out-patient program and check back in. It is for your own good.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Last weekend 250 iraqis died because they made the grave error of grocery shopping. They were not killed by U.S. troops,they were killed by other members of the religion of peace. Women,children,innocents,blown to bits because they did not adhere to the right way of islam.It is time for the troops to pull out and let these barbarians fight to the finish.

Do you live in a bubble ?
Seriously , there were no death squads , no market bombings ,suicide bombings , kidnappings or roadside bombs in saddams time . To turn around and blame the Iraqis for this is to ignore all the factors leading up to this invasion . To ignore that the united states KNEW that this would be the likely outcome of an invasion (George Tenant Advised the president of the US to this fact in a memo about the possible outcomes of an invasion of iraq) . Some people just turn fox news on and turn on the racism no wonder bush got reelected .

 

[Phil B]

Do you live in a bubble ?
Seriously , there were no death squads ... kidnappings ...in saddams time .

Bubble??

Pot meet Kettle, Kettle meet pot.

 

[#juan]

Last weekend 250 iraqis died because they made the grave error of grocery shopping. They were not killed by U.S. troops,they were killed by other members of the religion of peace. Women,children,innocents,blown to bits because they did not adhere to the right way of islam.It is time for the troops to pull out and let these barbarians fight to the finish.

God I wish I had saved all the warnings that the U.S. got about the civil war that would ensue if Saddam were deposed. These warnings came from just about all their allies. Indeed, a full civil war is raging because the Americans did what they were warned not to do. Let's face it, American intelligence is a joke.

I would say that the barbarians are the ones who bombed and killed 600,000 civilians in a country that was no threat.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0820-04.htm

 

[wallyj]

Do you live in a bubble ?
Seriously , there were no death squads , no market bombings ,suicide bombings , kidnappings or roadside bombs in saddams time . To turn around and blame the Iraqis for this is to ignore all the factors leading up to this invasion . To ignore that the united states KNEW that this would be the likely outcome of an invasion (George Tenant Advised the president of the US to this fact in a memo about the possible outcomes of an invasion of iraq) . Some people just turn fox news on and turn on the racism no wonder bush got reelected .

So the 180,000 dead Kurds were just business as usual.No problem with that because they were only brown people. That is your racism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zzarchov]

Are you refering to me ?
Because if you are talking about me then it's not a realistic argument , to compare invading troops to police is down right unintelligent . A better comparison would be if some German cop decides that our laws concerning medicinal drug use are wrong , said German police officer gets on a plane flies to someone's house in Ontario and tries to arrest them , If that guy using drugs legally in his house is you and you had a gun would you not defend yourself from aggression ? Assume this German stands outside your door and starts lobing grenades inside , He's killing your gf , dog , sister and everyone else in the house with you even though he's only there for you .
They Should not be there in the first place! and you are actually saying that that Iraqis resisting this American aggression are to blame for their own deaths ?
Iraqis get beat on , abused , terrorized and arrested without charge processing or evidence so yeah compared to them i lead a pretty dam sheltered life so **** me for giving a dam about their suffering i guess you can only show empathy to a rape victim if you've been raped yourself , i guess i shouldn't care about anyone suffering because i myself am not personally being abused .Ideas like that are how police states are born .

Please explain to me the different between what the US government is doing now and police work. They aren't invading, the government of the nation does still want them there.

Perhaps that undemocratic, I fail to see how that matters, as neither the last government nor the ones before it were democratic.

They also have more rights now, and less abuse then they had before the American's invaded. Remember Uday? Who would drive around shooting bystanders on the street because he enjoyed it? Who would pick any pretty girl he saw of the street, rape and then execute them?

Ya.. its so much worse now. Their is more violence sure, but that isn't american spawned, thats what happens when you unclamp the lid from ages of repression.


If people followed your viewpoint the civil rights movement in the US never would have occured due to all the violence that flared up when it was implemented, lasting for decades.

You'd still have minorities sitting on the back of the bus, because people would fight and riot for awhile if you changed it.


But thats the way things go, if you shoot at someone, if you knowingly try and kill them, expect death in return.

Living by the sword means dying by the sword. Regardless of if you are spreading freedom or resisting aggression or however you determine it. If you are willing to kill, you have agreed that you will die the same way.

So yes, those resisting are responsible for their own death, the same as those attacking.

 

[Minority Observer84]

So the 180,000 dead Kurds were just business as usual.No problem with that because they were only brown people. That is your racism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To Look at an event and ignore it's causality makes for a pretty simplistic world view .
First of all no one knows if that number is correct it's based on the same kind of math that resulted in the 100000 Iraqis dead in the first 6 months of the war survey . In other words counting casualty figures using a map and ingnoring population density .
But lets for the sake of argument assume those numbers are true , they died due to being bombed with shells containing mustard gas , where do you think that mustard gas came from ?
It was the same mustard gas found ina bunker outside Baghdad and which the us proudly displayed to news agencies as evidence of Iraqi WMDs the same mustard gas that was provided by the US for use against Iran during the Iraq/Iran war . And don't for a second try to wash them of blame because arming a mad man is an invitation for massacre .
Lets say you walk into the middle of a robbery the cops are on the way and you give a man whom you know is unstable a bullet proof vest and cop killer bullets aren't you equally to blame for all the extra people he kills due to your help ?
Guess they didn't go to much into the source of these bio weapons on fox news .

 

[mabudon]

They aren't invading, the government of the nation does still want them there.

Well, of COURSE the fake, installed by the US "government" wants the US there, otherwise the actual population of Iraq might take control of stuff and that'd be BAD for business

 

[Zzarchov]

So, genocide is ok as long as you can blame someone else?

You know, the Machettes used in Rwanda came from China. I guess we should blame them, rather than the people who commited the act.

And Hussein was not a mad man. He was a very logical man. And Logically, if you ignore all humanity and act like a cold and callous monster, genocide is the only way to end a long term enemy. Thats why he did it, and he stopped because the US bombed him and armed Kurds. Genocide is never the act of a madman, to be effective it requires cold, logical planning of someone who doesn't care, who thinks of people as no more than insects.

Don't wash that regime of blame by claiming they are in the same bracket as someone in a mental institution who doesn't know what their actions mean.

He knew. Don't trivilialize all those dead children for your own political views.

 

[Zzarchov]

Well, of COURSE the fake, installed by the US "government" wants the US there, otherwise the actual population of Iraq might take control of stuff and that'd be BAD for business

They did, they held elections. Or do you mean the military strongman representing 20% of the population who ruled before?

 

[JBeee]

So, genocide is ok as long as you can blame someone else?

You know, the Machettes used in Rwanda came from China. I guess we should blame them, rather than the people who commited the act.

And Hussein was not a mad man. He was a very logical man. And Logically, if you ignore all humanity and act like a cold and callous monster, genocide is the only way to end a long term enemy. Thats why he did it, and he stopped because the US bombed him and armed Kurds. Genocide is never the act of a madman, to be effective it requires cold, logical planning of someone who doesn't care, who thinks of people as no more than insects.

Don't wash that regime of blame by claiming they are in the same bracket as someone in a mental institution who doesn't know what their actions mean.

He knew. Don't trivilialize all those dead children for your own political views.

"You know, the Machettes used in Rwanda came from China. I guess we should blame them, rather than the people who commited the act."......

Apples and oranges my friend.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Please explain to me the different between what the US government is doing now and police work. They aren't invading, the government of the nation does still want them there.

Perhaps that undemocratic, I fail to see how that matters, as neither the last government nor the ones before it were democratic.

They also have more rights now, and less abuse then they had before the American's invaded. Remember Uday? Who would drive around shooting bystanders on the street because he enjoyed it? Who would pick any pretty girl he saw of the street, rape and then execute them?

Ya.. its so much worse now. Their is more violence sure, but that isn't american spawned, thats what happens when you unclamp the lid from ages of repression.


If people followed your viewpoint the civil rights movement in the US never would have occured due to all the violence that flared up when it was implemented, lasting for decades.

You'd still have minorities sitting on the back of the bus, because people would fight and riot for awhile if you changed it.


But thats the way things go, if you shoot at someone, if you knowingly try and kill them, expect death in return.

Living by the sword means dying by the sword. Regardless of if you are spreading freedom or resisting aggression or however you determine it. If you are willing to kill, you have agreed that you will die the same way.

So yes, those resisting are responsible for their own death, the same as those attacking.

It's and invasion that alone should tell you that what they are doing is different from police work .
So your saying that if the US invaded a country and set up a government that agrees with they are free to do as they like ? The first thing any foreign occupier does is setup a patzy government that will act according to their wishes such was the case in Afghanistan (during both the soviet and the American incursions ) such was the case in Poland by the soviets and many more examples in history .
Violence is one thing but invading a country and labeling the people resisting said invasion as insurgents is an invasion tactic nothing more . These insurgents do not and never have mentioned domestic us policy as their motivations they are simply resisting what they see and what is an occupying force 50 years ago when the french did that we called them "Resistance freedom fighters " which only proves that this is all laced with a lot of Propaganda.
Point to this long winded reply is that and occupation force killing resistance fighters is nothing like a cop killing a criminal that is violating the law that society in general created .
And insurgent shooting at an American because he invaded his country is nothing like a drug dealer shooting at a cop because he got busted at a drug buy .

 

[Minority Observer84]

So, genocide is ok as long as you can blame someone else?

You know, the Machettes used in Rwanda came from China. I guess we should blame them, rather than the people who commited the act.

And Hussein was not a mad man. He was a very logical man. And Logically, if you ignore all humanity and act like a cold and callous monster, genocide is the only way to end a long term enemy. Thats why he did it, and he stopped because the US bombed him and armed Kurds. Genocide is never the act of a madman, to be effective it requires cold, logical planning of someone who doesn't care, who thinks of people as no more than insects.

Don't wash that regime of blame by claiming they are in the same bracket as someone in a mental institution who doesn't know what their actions mean.

He knew. Don't trivilialize all those dead children for your own political views.

I'am not washing the Saddam of blame i'am saying that he had did not do it alone . And comparing a machette to a mustard gas shell is not very practical the level of death and destruction caused by Saddam would not be anywhere as high as it was with American help that is not to say he was not to blame but he is not the only one to blame .

 

[wallyj]

The situation in Iraq is grim.Agreed,yes. The states first went into Iraq because of saddam's invasion of Kuwait.Agreed,yes. The states stopped bombing the bejeezus out of Baghdad because saddam surrendered and signed a UN agreement with many requirements.Agreed,yes.Are you still with me? I hope so. Saddam reneged on this agreement by not allowing the weapons inspectors to do thier job.Agreed,yes. Bush said ,live up to the terms of the UN agreement or we will resume bombing. Agreed,yes.Saddam gave the world the middle finger and hoped no one would call his bluff.Agreed,yes. These are all facts. George called his bluff and now Iraq is a cesspool of death. Agreed,yes. Who is at fault? Who would you rather live next door to you,George or Saddam? Before you write the typical knee-jerk reaction,think of where the world would be if Saddam was allowed to reject the UN resolutions.That would make the UN a paper tiger . Who would police the crazies?

 

[JBeee]

The situation in Iraq is grim.Agreed,yes. The states first went into Iraq because of saddam's invasion of Kuwait.Agreed,yes. The states stopped bombing the bejeezus out of Baghdad because saddam surrendered and signed a UN agreement with many requirements.Agreed,yes.Are you still with me? I hope so. Saddam reneged on this agreement by not allowing the weapons inspectors to do thier job.Agreed,yes. Bush said ,live up to the terms of the UN agreement or we will resume bombing. Agreed,yes.Saddam gave the world the middle finger and hoped no one would call his bluff.Agreed,yes. These are all facts. George called his bluff and now Iraq is a cesspool of death. Agreed,yes. Who is at fault? Who would you rather live next door to you,George or Saddam? Before you write the typical knee-jerk reaction,think of where the world would be if Saddam was allowed to reject the UN resolutions.That would make the UN a paper tiger . Who would police the crazies?

Oh man...aren`t you a prime candidate for press secretary for the current White House!!

 

[Minority Observer84]

The situation in Iraq is grim.Agreed,yes. The states first went into Iraq because of saddam's invasion of Kuwait.Agreed,yes. The states stopped bombing the bejeezus out of Baghdad because saddam surrendered and signed a UN agreement with many requirements.Agreed,yes.Are you still with me? I hope so. Saddam reneged on this agreement by not allowing the weapons inspectors to do thier job.Agreed,yes. Bush said ,live up to the terms of the UN agreement or we will resume bombing. Agreed,yes.Saddam gave the world the middle finger and hoped no one would call his bluff.Agreed,yes. These are all facts. George called his bluff and now Iraq is a cesspool of death. Agreed,yes. Who is at fault? Who would you rather live next door to you,George or Saddam? Before you write the typical knee-jerk reaction,think of where the world would be if Saddam was allowed to reject the UN resolutions.That would make the UN a paper tiger . Who would police the crazies?

The Fact in Bush is the one who undermined the UN and went into iraq despite their warnings and objections , Koffe Anan the then Head of the UN went to Washington and asked that this invasion not go forward he made a speech infront of his UN office in New York and said that he was against this invasion that is was not the solution , millions of people across the world including myself protested in their respective countries against this act of aggression and we were all ignored . Fact is the first American troops in Iraq landed on an oil reserve and proceeded to secure the location , that's the very first thing that they did secure the oil . please do not argue that this invasion was for the people of Iraq that's a frankly ignorant position . And please do not aruge that the UN was party to it Scott Ritter the former head of the nuclear inspectors in Iraq went on record saying that Iraq had no WMD's and he was right and the conservative think tank morons were wrong funny how the guy who actually inspected Iraqi weapons for a living knew more than some suit in an office in Washington must've been dumb luck .

P.S Israel Is as we speak in violating international law and was in violation of several UN resolutions and not even a word of condemnation from the US so please do not try and convince me that this is what was done because he violated UN sanctions it just does not track .