Full Version: Hitchens and Boteach Debate on God

Hawkins

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Jan 23, 2007
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He only proves some people have an emotional need for god. A need Hitchens points out that leads people to crying and bleating at an empty sky.

It's a fallacy to say that 'because people have an emotional need for God such that He doesn't exist.

Hitchens points out too that no physical need for god is required for the universe and us to exist.

Scientifically speaking, this cannot be proven unless we have another copy of universe/earth to reference to draw the conclusion. Last heard, we don't even know what forces behind (dark energy/matter) holding our unverse from collapsing.

(actually from my speculation, faith-based assumptions have to be made for any conclusions of the topic)

So the arguments are just 'a fallacy + a religiou belief'.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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It's a fallacy to say that 'because people have an emotional need for God such that He doesn't exist.m

Your right and I didn't say that.


Scientifically speaking, this cannot be proven unless we have another copy of universe/earth to reference to draw the conclusion. Last heard, we don't even know what forces behind (dark energy/matter) holding our unverse from collapsing.

Your wrong. There are many theories about the mechanics of the universe that don't require a god; these same theories that have given us all the technology we have around us and put men on the moon. Non of it requires a god.

It is a fallacy to suggest we need a second universe to validate these theories. We have the scientific method which works very well.

So because cosmologists and physicists don't have all the answers your proposing an invisible sky god must be the glue of the universe!?!?! lol that's funny :lol: Talk about a fallacy!
 

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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So because cosmologists and physicists don't have all the answers your proposing an invisible sky god must be the glue of the universe!?!?! lol that's funny :lol: Talk about a fallacy!

What's even funnier, is that when confronted with a logical and opposing argument, the willfully ignorant proponents of religiosity will see your words as those of the devil devised to tempt them from their steadfast faith...

Ok, well it's not funny like ha ha...:-?
 

Hawkins

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Jan 23, 2007
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Your right and I didn't say that.
So because cosmologists and physicists don't have all the answers your proposing an invisible sky god must be the glue of the universe!?!?! lol that's funny :lol: Talk about a fallacy!

Isaac Newton said that science is just like someone dancing in the sand of an ocean.

It's your belief that cosmologists and physicists know anything beyond a 3D sphere we are living in.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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It's your belief that cosmologists and physicists know anything beyond a 3D sphere we are living in.

No, they have proved they know through prediction and demonstration. Believing men can get to the moon doesn't get them there - hard science and knowledge gets them there. Rovers don't get to Mars by faith; they get there by pure hard science. So it isn't belief that lets me know they know things, it is their amazing ability to demonstrate it!
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Do you believe that?
But, method becomes madness, madness becomes mundane, mundane becomes habit, habituation becomes ritual----------------------humans like shortcuts

If we insist in the scientific method be applied to every question we will require a legion of eegheads such as this little planet cannot feed. I intuitively circumvent the rules, most do, the instinctive drive is to circumvent the devil in the details. There isn't enough chalk board in the universe to scribble down the formulae for everything. Under the veneer of cultivated civilization we remain slaves to the unknown. None of this prattle of mine suggests that I have overmuch contempt for the scientific method. The bent to religion among humans is a fact. I wonder why? Some sort of safety against fact overload maybe?
 

eanassir

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Jul 26, 2007
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So it was not the people of Catal Huyuk worshipping the spirit of the volcano that was the source of their obsidian trade? Archaelogical evidence would seem to support this...



And who taught the Hindus about their pantheon of gods?



The Vedas predate the Torah by about 500 years...

Reply A

The religion of God the Creator is based on the First Commandment: that no god but God.
This is in the Quran 3: 83
أَفَغَيْرَ دِينِ اللّهِ يَبْغُونَ وَلَهُ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُونَ
The explanation:
(What [religion] other than God's religion is that these [Jews and Christians] crave, when to Him is resigned [lit. Muslims] whosoever is in the heavens and the earth [: the terrestrial planets including the earth], willingly or loath,
and to His [judgment] shall they return [after death]!?)

This "no god but God" which is the same as the First Commandment is the central axis of all the heavenly religions in the entire universe and of all the creation: this World and the next; this commandment which pertains to God alone without any associate or equal.

This is the password or the key of Paradise without which Paradise will be closed before the associater or idolater.
This is in the Quran
وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ..الخ
The explanation:
(The Christ said: "Children of Israel, worship God: my Lord and your Lord;
surely, whoso associates [anything] with God, God has forbidden him Paradise, and his resort is the Fire;
wrong-doers will have no helpers [to save them from the chastisement.]" )
 

eanassir

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Jul 26, 2007
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So it was not the people of Catal Huyuk worshipping the spirit of the volcano that was the source of their obsidian trade? Archaelogical evidence would seem to support this...



And who taught the Hindus about their pantheon of gods?



The Vedas predate the Torah by about 500 years...

Part B

Therefore, when God created the earth, then at first He created the genie-kind (or demon-kind) to inhabit the gaseous layers of the sky: His religion for them was this First Commandment that God is One without associate or equal.

Then He created three human races: the black, the yellow and the red; to these He sent a large number of apostles to warn them against idolatry and inviting them to worship God Most Gracious. But those apostles we don't know about their names. Most of such messages of those apostles were then perverted and mixed with the association and idolatry.

Then the Creator created Adam and Eve the parents of the last human race: the white or Caucasian race, and sent to them many apostles from the time of Adam and till the present time with a large number of apostles and prophets: the names of some of the apostles we know, while many other apostles we don't know about them; because they are not mentioned neither in the Torah nor the Quran.

This is in the Quran 2: 213

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

The explanation:
(People were one nation [of monotheists at the time of Adam],
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion];
that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];

but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission [or leave], guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated;
for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )

Therefore, when we see some civilization with some distorted religion mixing some heavenly with some idolatry; it is because:
the original monotheism is from God as in the First Commandment, i.e. no god but God;
while the idolatry is because of the perversion of those messages in different languages and different nations.


 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Many adherants to belief systems find themselves gleefully involved in the cultivation and propagation of thier arch rivals through the procees of actualization of the distinct other or the maintenance of the qualifying distinction, therefore each to the other are titilated into a state of nourishing dung each belief system requires to manifest itself in the one and onlyist. Niether side seem aware of the simbiotic parasitical relationship that niether can win and exist. There seems no solution to the debate that the human form can survive.
Accordingly you should all drop to your knees imeadiately and thank your lucky stars for mechanics, (and some engineers). The screw thread is the purest manifestaion of god. Once everything has been properly screwed together it will never come apart we'll be unified at last by guys like Robinson Philips and Watts. All high priests.
 

darkbeaver

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I believe Christianity to be far and above the superior form of religion. Let no man or woman tell you that god does not love maple glazed barbacued organicly raised porkchops.They're inhuman liars. And that's the only reason. I would cheerfully engage in holy war for that god given hedonistic right.
 

eanassir

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Jul 26, 2007
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If these books were in fact the word of god, why are they all riddled with inconsistencies?

Why did he need someone to write this stuff down, is the creator of the universe functionally illiterate? Could not the creator of the universe etch into the side of a mountain or write into the stars what he expects of his adherents?


Part C

The past heavenly books: the Torah and the Gospel have been distorted;
and the Quran came as a correction which cannot be altered or changed.

God – be glorified – wrote by Himself, on the stone tablets the Ten Commandments to be a guidance and light to mankind; these Ten Words cannot be altered or changed or perverted; because they are known by heart; if anyone makes change in these words, there will be many many who will immediately correct the mistake.

The Quran is also preserved unchangeable and is known by heart, even by a large number of the non-Arab who know it by heart, even though many of them, being non-Arab, do not know its meaning.

But the Torah is an extensive book including a large number of books of the prophets in addition to the first five books: the Pentateuch;
and this present Torah is not the original one; this present Torah was written by the priest Ezra following their return from the captivity of Babylon;
it included many mistakes and contradictions and lies against the prophets of God.
Moreover many of its books were lost by time, according to the words of the Torah itself.

The Gospel consists of 4 Gospels; many other Gospels were burnt by Emperor Constantine in the past, and these 4 were left.
In addition, these are only the translations from a Latin or Greek origin, and not the original; the original Aramaic Gospel is lost since long time ago. The translation distorted more the meaning and the true original words.
 

eanassir

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Jul 26, 2007
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Oh the bells just gone off, what a nice little dream I was just about to reload my maxim and hack down the heretics after my lunch.


darkbeaver, this is not the thread of the "dream"; it is the thread of "the drunkard with the rabbi" :lol: ; hope for you a delicious lunch with chop or kubba :lol: .
 

eanassir

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He reminds me of Dexter who dosen't like cats either.;-)

Have you too noticed that of him; but here I agree with him completely; I too don't like cats after I saw the quarelling of cats, and the transgression of the strong cat on the weak, and many of cats have the homosexuality behavior, and contrary to dogs which are trustworthy, these cats are not loyal; whenever they see some meat they steal it at once :smile:
 
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DurkaDurka

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Have you too noticed that of him; but here I agree with him completely; I too don't like cats after I saw the quarelling of cats, and the transgression of the strong cat on the weak, and many of cats have the homosexuality behavior, and contrary to dogs which are trustworthy, these cats are not loyal; whenever they see some meat they steal it at once :smile:


I have seen dogs engage in male to male bonding, many times. Removing a dogs balls causes them to do many strange things. Have you ever had a fixed female dog try to make love to your leg, Eanassir?
 

LittleRunningGag

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Jan 11, 2006
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But where's the proof? Anyone can write a book. Anyone can write a book and attribute it to a deity. But no one, anywhere, can provide proof. Something duplicatable. Something that I can look at and say, 'Ah, there it is.'

But no. All we get is empty rhetoric. All we get is vague promises, and curiously specific and detailed threats. :roll:

It would be so simple to convert ninety percent of atheists. The atheist does not have a hatred of your deity. The atheist simply wants proof.