US in deep trouble for killing 60 children!!

[dancing-loon]

Back to the topic!;-)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 06:26:00
Pentagon Investigation of Civilian Deaths in Afghanistan at Odds With Other Accounts

Pentagon issued a statement on Tuesday denying that scores of civilians had been killed in an airstrike in the village of Azizabad in Herat province, Afghanistan.
.......
The latest announcement on the completion of the investigation states, "Intense enemy fire justified actions taken by Afghan and U.S. forces during an Aug. 22 engagement in which several civilians and more than 30 Taliban fighters were killed in western Afghanistan". Combined Afghan and U.S. forces "began taking fire from Taliban militants", which "justified use of well-aimed small-arms fire and close-air support to defend the combined force" that killed "30 to 35 Taliban militants". The investigation, the Pentagon said, also "revealed evidence suggesting a known Taliban commander, Mullah Sadiq, was among them". It acknowledges that "Five to seven civilians were killed", disputing the figure given by Afghan and U.N. officials of 90 civilian deaths.
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The news release notes that coalition forces were "denied entry into the village" after the attack. Thus, "No other evidence that may have been collected by other organizations was provided to the U.S. investigating officer and therefore could not be considered in the findings".
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The Pentagon's findings are contradicted by eyewitness reports from local Afghans and the findings of a U.N. investigation. Special envoy to Afghanistan Kai Eide said that the U.N. inquiry "found convincing evidence, based on the testimony of eyewitnesses and others, that some 90 civilians were killed, including 60 children, 15 women and 15 men. Fifteen other villagers were wounded. The destruction from aerial bombardment was clearly evident with seven to eight houses having been destroyed, with serious damage to many others. Local residents were able to confirm the number of casualties, including names, age and gender of the victims."

I highly recommend reading the full article: http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=149&a=8114
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So, whom should we believe? I'll go with the underdogs!!

 

[Zzarchov]

woah woah woah...

"found convincing evidence, based on the testimony of eyewitnesses "

Ok, that explains alot. Eyewitness testimony is not reliable evidence, especially from people dodging explosions.

If there was massive bombing and 90 people dead, guess what, there is more than eyewitness evidence.

For starters there are somewhere near 90 bodies.

So where are the bodies? People say they saw people die, but no remains exist?

Basic laws of evidence for charging someone with a criminal (and 90 civilians would be a criminal negligence issue) require more than "eyewitness testimony", like say, some bodies.

 

[MHz]

Real smart, let the accused do the investigation, like anything will ever come of this other than a few dollars being handed out as compensation, and I mean very few (if +any at all).
Here are the bodies you asked for.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7603969.stm

Zzarchov you should be ashamed of yourself, the estimate of 90 didn't come from those who narrowly escaped dieing themselves, they included somebody from the UN, a little digging might even turn up some names. Are you accusing them of being liars while the US investigators (got any names) are the only ones telling the truth. Should the dead have remained unburied until all investigations and picture taking was over?

 

[MHz]

Real smart, let the accused do the investigation, like anything will ever come of this other than a few dollars being handed out as compensation, and I mean very few (if any at all).
Here are the bodies you asked for.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7603969.stm

Zzarchov you should be ashamed of yourself, the estimate of 90 didn't come from those who narrowly escaped dieing themselves, they included somebody from the UN, a little digging might even turn up some names. Are you accusing them of being liars while the US investigators (got any names) are the only ones telling the truth. Should the dead have remained unburied until all investigations and picture taking was over?

 

[einmensch]

One needs to aquire a concept of shame first.

But after video images showing at least 10 dead children and up to 40 other dead villagers surfaced last week, the U.S. said it would send a one-star general from the United States to investigate the strike

Does this help, Zzarchov? Not all there but heading in a direction. Are Nazis are spreading the lies, Zzarchov?

 

[dancing-loon]

Thanks, MHz;
I can back you up on that video:

On Sept 8th the London Times published an eight-minute video of the massacre in Azizabad, the "most compelling evidence to emerge" of 75 civilian deaths. The hero here is an unnamed Afghan doctor who arrived at the scene with a cell phone and shot footage of weeping parents, injured children and charred babies - line upon line of shrouded corpses. Along with attack helicopters and a C130 Spectre gunship, armed drones were used in the attack.

Somewhere in this thread it has been mentioned that the bodies were gathered in a church and viewed by investigators.

 

[lone wolf]

C'mon.... Has nobody heard 57 German planes were shot down at a cost of 4 RAF ...or I assure you ... a gallon IS only three quarts ...or I swear, the fish was thi-iss big! Exaggerate and denial is a part of war. How else can they keep the support coming?

 

[Zzarchov]

ok, you have a video of people laying down with blankets on them.

Maybe they are dead. Even if they are.

50 dead people is consistent with the evidence the US pulled.


I should point out in Canada the accussed can also collect evidence for their trial, in fact its a right.


The pentagon isn't saying 90 people didn't die, its saying: There is no proof 90 people died, ergo, innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Not

Innocent until accused.


Seriously people, this is eyewitness testimonial vs forensics. Where are the 90 bodies? How come the UN couldn't find bodies? They were the ones in control of the crime scene.

 

[MHz]

ok, you have a video of people laying down with blankets on them.

Maybe they are dead. Even if they are.

50 dead people is consistent with the evidence the US pulled.


I should point out in Canada the accussed can also collect evidence for their trial, in fact its a right.


The pentagon isn't saying 90 people didn't die, its saying: There is no proof 90 people died, ergo, innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Not

Innocent until accused.


Seriously people, this is eyewitness testimonial vs forensics. Where are the 90 bodies? How come the UN couldn't find bodies? They were the ones in control of the crime scene.

By trying to cheapen their deaths you only sully you own existence. Innocent until proven guilty is the way the saying goes, did that stop either invasion? Not. Keep it up, I just love it when people show their true colors.

Evidense, here is how they got their evidence, can you spot the lie?

(in part)
The investigation determined the casualty numbers "by observation of the enemy movements during the engagement as well as on-site observations immediately following the engagement." Statements were also taken "from more than 30 Afghan and U.S. participants" and "the investigating officer reviewed reports made by ground and air personnel during the engagement; video taken during the engagement; topographic photo comparisons of the area before and after the event, including analysis of burial sites; reports from local medical clinics and hospitals; intelligence reports; and physical data and photographs collected on the site".
The news release notes that coalition forces were "denied entry into the village" after the attack. Thus, "No other evidence that may have been collected by other organizations was provided to the U.S. investigating officer and therefore could not be considered in the findings".
The Pentagon's findings are contradicted by eyewitness reports from local Afghans and the findings of a U.N. investigation. Special envoy to Afghanistan Kai Eide said that the U.N. inquiry "found convincing evidence, based on the testimony of eyewitnesses and others, that some 90 civilians were killed, including 60 children, 15 women and 15 men. Fifteen other villagers were wounded. The destruction from aerial bombardment was clearly evident with seven to eight houses having been destroyed, with serious damage to many others. Local residents were able to confirm the number of casualties, including names, age and gender of the victims."
http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=149&a=8114

I told you you could probably find a name of some UN personal.
"on-site observations" and "denied entry into the village" would seem to be at odds with each other.

Now actually read how they gathered their data (1st paragraph above), mostly from the shooters and then from aerial shots and then trying to count new graves. And those are your heroes, what a piece of work you really are.

 

[Zzarchov]

Well, lets see.

In Afghanistan we were asked in by the Afghanistan governing body (The Taleban were and are a foreign invading army who never fully controlled afghanistan)

In Iraq, actually yes, there was a peacefull attempt to bring Saddam and his sons to trial before the invasion.

Sure, it was in the form of an ultimatum, but if the cops tell you to come out with your hands up and you don't, you better bet they go in with guns drawn.


As for heroes, Im not claiming that.

Im claiming, innocent until proven guilty. That is the standard of law. It sometimes lets bad men get away, sometimes to write a book called "If I did It...",

Sometimes it lets bad women get away with a slap on the wrist while they participated in their husbands sadistic torture.

But its still the cornerstone of our legal system.



As for: Can I spot the errors:

Yes. Read that, everything is based on testimonials and hearsay. That doesn't stand up in a court of law. On site observations can be anything from satellites to being outside of town with binoculars. It means they aren't allowed to go in and examine the validity of the evidence alleged against them.



Seriously, go there, dig up the 90 bodies. Its not that hard. Apparently you have their names ages and genders.

So you know the names, ages and genders of the 90 people who lived in these 7-8 houses (which is possible in the region).

Go check them all out, go examine the bodies and make sure they are who they say they are and that they died from the bomb.

If so, go to trial.


But what they have now, isn't acceptable to convict someone of a capital offence (Which is what this would be)

 

[MHz]

Seriously, is your IQ above 52.

You support the 'accused' being the only valid investigator.

Show the court documents that show each person that was killed was convicted in a valid court of law that deemed them 'the enemy'. Then go and show that for the million + 'civilians' in Iraq that are dead. Without that piece of paper they are civilians.

If they are now dead that is murder, plain and simple.

 

[einmensch]

Proof that 6 million were murdered? Have you got that? We know that 2.5 million were not murdered but claimed.

 

[dancing-loon]

Proof that 6 million were murdered? Have you got that? We know that 2.5 million were not murdered but claimed.

Read here to get the "truth":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Six_Million_Really_Die?

 

[einmensch]

Unfortunately, so-called religious Zionists are the dumbest, most brainwashed and idiotic of all Zionists. <Sigh again>........... and we have a few here and one claims not to be Jewish-- They have NAZI on the brain. Nazi is the magic word. Zz believes that using that magic word wins all argumnts and makes him omnipotent.

 

[Zzarchov]

Seriously, is your IQ above 52.

You support the 'accused' being the only valid investigator.

Show the court documents that show each person that was killed was convicted in a valid court of law that deemed them 'the enemy'. Then go and show that for the million + 'civilians' in Iraq that are dead. Without that piece of paper they are civilians.

If they are now dead that is murder, plain and simple.

No, again, your just making stuff up because your IQ is apparently lower than 52, try and keep up Forrest.


The accussed gets to see the evidence presented against them as well as collect their own evidence for use in the trial.

Hearsay and Testimonial are not enough to convict someone of a crime. But hey, you have the names, ages and genders of everyone killed, produce a body.


Think about this in your shoes. IF I go tell the cops that you killed someone and I "totally heard people talking about how they saw you do it", is that enough to convict you?

Shouldn't there be at least proof the person is dead? like a body? shouldn't there be some kind of forensic evidence?

Shouldn't you get a trial with all the same legal protections we give serial rapists?


What is so hard for you to understand in this?

 

[Zzarchov]

Unfortunately, so-called religious Zionists are the dumbest, most brainwashed and idiotic of all Zionists. <Sigh again>........... and we have a few here and one claims not to be Jewish-- They have NAZI on the brain. Nazi is the magic word. Zz believes that using that magic word wins all argumnts and makes him omnipotent.

Ok, seriously? your literally an Anti-semite. I mean seriously, you deny the holocaust, you only care when Jewish people are accussed (I don't see any anti-china posts for their conquest of Tibet) and you turn EVERY thread into a way to rant about greedy jews. Your primary concern is if people are Jewish or not and how that and that alone shades their views. Lots of Jewish people don't care for Israel you know? Just as alot of Muslim people don't support Palestine.

I mean, I can't believe you seriously try and pretend otherwise. ITs just insulting. You call yourself a human for a forum tag, but all you care about is who you don't consider human.

 

[dancing-loon]

Unfortunately, so-called religious Zionists are the dumbest, most brainwashed and idiotic of all Zionists. <Sigh again>........... and we have a few here and one claims not to be Jewish-- They have NAZI on the brain. Nazi is the magic word. Zz believes that using that magic word wins all arguments and makes him omnipotent.

NAZI has become a household word for anything vile and evil. I think it is best not to react to it. You and I are too young to have been Nazis, and our parents, at least in my case, are dead.
Also, there is a law that you are not to doubt or deny the numbers nor the fact.

Let's stick with the topic!!
I have read various websites, news and blogs... there is no doubt about the number nor the bodies, as different organizations have investigated and come up with roughly the same numbers.

I'm surprised that Zzarchov has not mentioned the fact, that the US apparently pays $2000 for each civilian they kill. That very fact could certainly influence the body count on either side for obvious reasons.

 

[Zzarchov]

Id like to point out Loon, Nazi's still exist. Nazi's in power don't, but Nazi groups didn't magically just up and disappear and new ones form everyday.

As for caring about 2,000 a body, the US sure as hell doesn't.

They spend 10,000 on a missile to maybe hit 1 militant, money is not a US concern. It may make some disreputable people lie about deaths for money...

Every nation has them, the US has its 9/11 fakers too. Throw money around and people do bad things.

 

[dancing-loon]

Id like to point out Loon, Nazi's still exist. Nazi's in power don't, but Nazi groups didn't magically just up and disappear and new ones form everyday.

As for caring about 2,000 a body, the US sure as hell doesn't.

They spend 10,000 on a missile to maybe hit 1 militant, money is not a US concern. It may make some disreputable people lie about deaths for money...

Every nation has them, the US has its 9/11 fakers too. Throw money around and people do bad things.

I guess you are right about the money.... it all goes under war cost.

Neo-Nazis, skinheads... yes, I've heard about them, apparently a nuisance in Germany. I feel sorry for them, because they are rejected from the start, and their enthusiasm leads to nowhere but trouble. They need to find better ways to channel their energies and their beliefs. I like to think they are reincarnated German soldiers who were so faithfully devoted to their Fuehrer, to the ideas of the Third Reich. But ...who knows? I have to wait till I get to the other side and get some enlightenment!;-)

 

[DurkaDurka]

I like to think they are reincarnated German soldiers who were so faithfully devoted to their Fuehrer, to the ideas of the Third Reich. But ...who knows? I have to wait till I get to the other side and get some enlightenment!;-)

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Does the same go for Neo-Nazi's in Canada & the US.... they are reincarnated krauts serving their Fuehrer?